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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:26 pm 
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I found this link for an exercise called the turkish get up, and it's recommended as a way to strengthen the muscles for getting up quickly from a prone position.
http://www.tacticalathlete.com/tguarticle.htm

In my current classes, we have started to emphasize getting up quickly as an important skill and defensive tactic. Several have stated on these forums that fighting from the floor is not a preferred position. Also, the little I know of other martial arts, particularly oriental, there is a strong sense of going from a kneeling or ground position to standing in one quick, fluid motion.

I'd be interested in other's thoughts on getting up quickly, and any drills or exercises you do to strengthen this ability. Do any of you use this turkish get up and/or what do you think of it?

Clearly, this involves strength, balance, agility, etc. I'd also be particularly interested in how some of our...um... :oops: older practitioners or those with joint issues adapt to this need...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:21 pm 
Hi Shana
I hesitated for a long while before getting kettlebells...when I got them I also got a couple of DVD's by this guy

http://www.artofstrength.com/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx

and the workout was impressive, however , I have serious concerns about a lot of the kettlebell stuff and this exercise particularly. I don't think that kettlebells have been tested enough, or that we have heard enough horror stories from folks who have used them incorrectly or been taught incorrect technique..also if they were so good why did folks change to using what we now know as traditional weights and machines? :? .........bodybuilding seemed to take over from weight training and circuit training about 30 years ago...kettlebells are really a sort of circuit training with a new twist to it..................I was told when I started karate that high kicks were good for you and prevented arthritis 30 years later I have had two artificial hips so I know they are wrong :cry: ( also check out how many of the famous kickers Bill Wallace,Chuck Norris and Billy Blanks ......... have all had hip replacement surgery).......so with that in mind I would approach something like kettlebells with extreme caution :roll:

As to getting up of the floor that's a hard one. Where I live if you are on the floor from a violent confrontation you will get kicked :cry:
it's a really bad situation to be in in the real world.........so I would say two things.try not to be there, if you are there grab a hold of your attacks legs and try to pull and use him to get up, so he can't kick you but be sure to protect your head with your arms, although really if he has got you to the ground it's all over for you :cry:

I'm 54 BTW.and my training has adapted a lot as I've aged, and due to my replacement hip, but not necessarily the way younger folks may think it has :wink:....although I must say that 54 isn't old for this forum :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:55 am 
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I posted a drill on this last week or so.
In the fighting drills area.

F.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Fred,
after I posted this, I saw your post and felt a bit silly. My apologies for the repeat! For those interested: http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=19900

Jorvik,
54 isn't really old! After all, I plan to live to at least 100, so that's only 1/2 way there! :lol: 8)

But I find your thoughts interesting. As for weight training/circuit training and machines...I, personally, feel that machines are popular because they're a) cool toys b) easy to learn/use c)many think it forces perfect form (I disagree).

Machines have thier uses, but they are made to fit a set range of body types...and the adjustments don't always fit a person properly, and that can lead to strain and injury. Being a rather short individual, I've had several machines that simply hit my knees and back at the wrong places. Most folks never adjust the machines, so they end up with far form perfect form/training/technique. But for a beginner, it's a great way to start, and some machines have some great uses!

Also, free weights require more usage of stabilizing muscles, so you get more bang for buck...can you tell I'm a fan of free weights over machines? :wink: Although, I do believe some machines, used and adjusted properly, are GREAT tools, as mentioned.

back on topic... :lol:
like any type of weighted exercise, I could see misuse of kettlebells. I think the excercise itself, with or without weights may have some merit though. Fred's drill is very similar, and uses no weights.

I just think the concept is useful, and it does appear to be a common concept among oriental martial arts....as it should be.

Reality probably does mean "ground...bad", but stuff happens, so training for this eventuality is probably a good thin, IMHO.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Shana

The Turkish Get Up looks like a wonderful and fun exercise with many benefits. It enhances coordination and balance - especially since it forces you to move with as high a center of gravity as possible. It strengthens the shoulder joint. And it helps teach whole-body synergy.

There are other exercises I teach which similarly have myriad benefits. One is walking lunges, where I insist it be done with as long a stride as possible and the weight no lower than the shoulders. (You can do this with a set of dumbbells over your head - VERY challenging!)

The concept that I try to teach in my classes is one I learned in aikido. As I've spent time similarly picking up ground work from jujitsu, I've begun to realize what I was taught in aikido. And that is to fight at whatever level you are. You can fight on your back. You can fight on your side. You can fight on your belly. You can fight on your knees. And if you learn to transition from one state to the next the way you step and turn in kata, then you begin to realize that you've expanded the realm of your Uechi Ryu - or any other art for that matter.

Aikido works a lot teaching people how to do all the standard techniques from any level and any orientation. The more different ways for instance that you learn to do a kote gaeshi, the more the technique is yours. At a certain point, you just find yourself doing it.

One thing that really helps (which I will show you) is walking on your knees. It's obviously easier to do on the mats, but... it can be done on a wooden floor. When I want to do something different, I'll show people how they can do an entire Sanchin kata on the knees - complete with all the stepping, turning, and pivoting.

Weapons fighting is no different. Years ago Bob Campbell taught me an iaido sequence that starts from seiza. When someone attacks, you draw the sword and go on your knees in one move. That draw and the leg energy you transmit to it disembowels your opponent. In the second move where you stand up and turn in one graceful movement, the sword decapitates your opponent. There is no step, attack, step, attack. The movement and the transitions supply energy to the techniques. There is no wasted energy production.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:54 pm 
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Not necessarily bad if you slip on the ice in the path of an oncoming car and need to get up quickly.
All this stuff has advantages outside the realm of bad guys.
Use it or lose it.

I plan on living to 111 myself. The record for my family is 110.

F.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:02 pm 
Shana
I use freeweights and machines, most of my heavy weights stuff is on machines, because I train alone. Pretty much all the kettlebell stuff can be done with dumbells 8) ( although some folks will tell you it can't be)
I think the point a lot of folks miss when they train weights ,is what are you training for?........in the past circuit training used to be very popular, and essentially kettlebells is a form of that, although not as good IMHO..because in a circuit you can develop different parts of your body in different ways depending upon what you do.
But You have to look at what you are doing, my art is essential striking and I believe a lot of the stuff being promoted now is for strength training needed for wrestling and grappling .............so I look at it logically,what do I need to do for an essentially striking style.........and I cover that base.
The other thing that I don't like is fads, I hate it in martial arts ( if you've been around long enough you'll know what I mean, Ninjas, krav magda, BJJ
Systema ).....and now we have it in fitness as well :roll: ........weights are essentially a cheap exercise method,I can't for the life of me understand why kettlebells cost more than dumbells :? :? ..they use less metal and less machineing .........so to me the motive is profit, and I resent folks thinking that I'm dumb enough to fork out some hard earned cash to line their pockets...that's why I like this guy
http://uk.youtube.com/user/scooby1961

I also plan to be immortal ...................and it's working so far :lol:


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 Post subject: Bill?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:25 pm 
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Sensei Bill, I texted you, asking if you would check out the URL on this days ago and let me know if you thought this would potentially be good to rehabilitate my shoulder. I never got any feedback.

I then emailed you something you requested with the same information Friday. I still haven't heard from you.

Is it possible I could get your feedback via the forum since there are problems via text and email.

I am considering buying this and trying it for my shoulder.

Anyone else out there that knows about this stuff, in case I do not hear from Bill on this. I would appreciate any feedback from anyone who has tried this.

Thanks all,
Vicki

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:43 am 
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Thanks, Marcus, for your input and email to me. Glad to see someone sees my frustration and has some advice on using these. As soon as I can afford it, I plan on buying the club bells to use at home on my shoulder. It will be my belated birthday/Christmas gift since we kinda put both off this year.

Much appreciated.

Hugs, my good friend,
Vicki

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:11 pm 
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Vicki

We had a one-on-one class this morning at o-dark thirty that you missed. When you make it up, we will discuss - as I planned all along. Some things are easier shown and done than talked about.

The short of it is that there is no miracle cure for your ailing shoulder. Been there, done that. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not evaluated your condition and is likely not a medical professional. You need time, patience, and consistent work.

Have faith, and don't chase any snake oil - however tempting it may seem in your moments of frustration. You can get the same placebo effect - or better - by quietly saying a heartfelt prayer. And we will all join you on that.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Ray

I stay away from machines as a primary source of strength training, and most professional athletes do the same thing. Closed chain exercises with limited degrees of freedom of motion don't just dumb your athletic body down. They also can throw the balance of strength in your muscles completely out of whack. It's fine if all you want to do is a little bit of circuit training to look good on the beach or in your clothes. But if an athletic endeavor is your goal, you're asking for trouble. For example, shoulder injuries (e.g. rotator cuff) are common with athletes who rely on machines to build their "press" strength. On the flip side, dumbbell training brings in the stabilizer muscles, and forces you to learn how to use them in conjunction with the primary drivers like the pecs and triceps.

It doesn't matter if it's traditional free weights or clubbells or kettle bells. In fact the mix is a good thing. What matters more is executing consistently on a thoughtful routine, and cycling through changes in your program to avoid repetitive motion injuries. For the advanced athlete, adapting to changes you feel is also a very wise choice.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:27 pm 
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Shana Moore wrote:

I found this link for an exercise called the turkish get up, and it's recommended as a way to strengthen the muscles for getting up quickly from a prone position.
http://www.tacticalathlete.com/tguarticle.htm

Shana

You missed a great class on Saturday.

I looked at the link you gave, and saw some positive elements in it. So in class, I had everyone grab a dumbbell. We then did all the rolling in myriad directions as shown on the film clip. Then I created some of my own "Glasheen get up" exercises for them to do where they repeatedly went smoothly from prone to standing to prone again, using all the proper transitions that I teach. It took a little while getting everyone up to speed. But what I found - which was fascinating - is that the more advanced students in the class didn't seem to pick it up any faster than the beginners I had in there. Everyone enjoyed it, and could feel the benefit.

And NOBODY DROPPED THE DUMBBELL ON THEIR BARE FEET!! 8O :lol:

This was fun. However it's worth mentioning that it's a variation on some exercises I recently learned from a trainer. To Ray's point above, he used simple weights (plates or dumbbells) commonly available in the weight room.

No kettlebells needed. Any weight will do.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:44 pm 
Bill
I bought some kettlebells last year.and enjoyed the workout, which was pretty intense :D ..however my leg started to play up a bit ( I had a Birmingham hip resurfacing done on my left hip 6 years ago ).......anyway when I went for my checkup the consultant said that I needed to come to hospital right away as my acertabulum ( :? ) had crumbled and my left leg was now about an inch shorter than my right :cry:
I now have a total hip replacement on my left hip.although as it was a " revision" I suppose there is some stuff left from last time.it is made from cobalt and chromium, according to him.........when I post stuff about fitness, like kettlebells etc I am trying to stop folks making similar mistakes to the ones that I made....Everyone and his dog is now into kettlebells etc.and "Core strength", my own belief is that if you have a weakness training that way will show it up and eventually do damage ...especiallly IMHO the workouts that folks do with kettlebells.....or at least the ones that I have seen, and I have to say not all the exercises but a fair few :roll: .........I actually couldn't use the bench press machine in my gym today because my hip is not supposed to sink lower than my knees and there was a chance of it doing just that.so I used dumbells................also I am not the type of guy who struggles with weights, I've done them for quite some time, and I believe that some of the folks thinking about doing this stuff are relative beginers and don't have your fitness backgound or knowledge of physiology...in the end it is a case of better safe than sorry.....I mean look at Bruce Lee he nearly crippled himself doing "Good Mornings" :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Bill,
I'm very sorry that I missed the Saturday class, as it sounds like it was interesting..and something I am sorely in need of training. Little one has made my scheduling a challenge these days, but I will continue to keep working at it!!

Good discussion folks!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:48 pm 
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Thank you for your feedback, Bill. It' has been tough scheduling time for both shoulder rehah and advanced training in one scheduled slot a week. We have been getting into the advanced stuff so much we have left behind the shoulder work...that was why I asked you to highlight it in an email. I do realize it is easier to just go through it and write it down so maybe, we can indeed do that when next we meet, as you offered. I will bring a notebook and be very cognizant of what you are showing me...and very diligent for the next 4 weeks to do it twice a week religiously.

Feel free to contact me via email, phone, text, or skype. I always make it a point to respond to any of the above.

I apologize for missing class. I rarely miss a scheduled class, rarely, but was sick and did text you before 6 am about being ill.

I will continue training regardless.

Thanks,
Vicki

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