your current thinking on conditioning

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Tue May 26, 2009 5:20 pm

Ray,
you bring up a good point, body pounding like lifting wieghts can only increase if you continually push your self. if someone does very light conditioning i dont care for how long it would be the equivilant to doing arm curls for the bicept with 10 pounds for years on end,,, not very benificial.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:13 pm

Steve
There are lots of different training methods out there

.as I have aged my training methods have changed a lot. They are less general and much more specific. I train for stuff that I would use in a specific way......BTW I was speaking to my Chinese friend today, and I had forgotten some of the stuff we used to do, backfisting to each others backfist

...try it...you may like it

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Tue May 26, 2009 11:27 pm

Ray, that sounds like it hurts !!!

like i said i prefer muscle induced type conditioning.
i prefer squeezing a tennis ball for the forarms and stuff like that.
but i am sure if i was 20 years younger again i might try it lol..

Jeff Cook · Post by **Jeff Cook** » Thu May 28, 2009 11:30 pm

Jorvik, I was speaking specifically about physical fitness, not body-hardening. Also, the fat people I am referring to are the ones we ALL have met in the dojo many, many times - not elite athletes like sumo wrestlers. Chances are the fat, low BMI Westerner is not going to be one of those elite athletes who just happens to be big.

I've had those type of people argue against spending time to get in shape, by saying things such as "I can overcome physical strength and endurance with my fabulous master-level technique" and "I will end a fight in 20 seconds or less." (There is something to that last comment, though - although I have been in some gang fights of 5-10 min duration and was exhausted afterward, in spite of being in extremely good shape).

Strength and endurance CAN trump technique, especially when the range closes to grappling distance. A certain amount of fitness is necessary to better your chances of survival.

Jeff Cook

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:07 pm

Hi Jeff
The conversation we were having was about the body hardening thing.There are a lot of fat people who think they are tough when they are just fat, the danger area is when you have been tough and gotten fat and lazy around middle age..something that I am fighting right now

With the physical conditioning that you are talking about.I pretty much. agree with you. I enjoy exercise, but from experience I have known boxers who have stopped training and put on a lot of weight, but who are still very tough, and other people who are fat but have "Fast hands" ........as to the superior technique thing........I do believe that there is such a thing

...and that with the right knowledge and technique you can put somebody down very quickly. Nowadays I think of martial arts in a more holistic way...........how does it fit into my life, and for what reason or reasons.......and how does it work for self defence. The self defence skills are only part of a much greater picture. A lot of folks train as if a blood ninja is gonna jump out of a bush and flourish a sword at 30 feet away then come charging at them, while they get into their correct fighting stance. I believe that the range will be much closer and that there will be some kind of prelude.which some folks call the "interview stage"....where they will talk and threaten......so I do specific techniques for that very close in range and train them hard...I have gone to clubs in the past were they have had folks running up and down the Dojo, doing jumping jacks and playing at wheelbarrows or pushups and situps.....Me I do them at home and I concentrate more on fighting moves. Nothing better than punching a bag to get you fit to fight

With those clubs I avoid them like the plague

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:59 am

jorvik wrote:Hi Jeff
The conversation we were having was about the body hardening thing.There are a lot of fat people who think they are tough when they are just fat, the danger area is when you have been tough and gotten fat and lazy around middle age..something that I am fighting right now
With the physical conditioning that you are talking about.I pretty much. agree with you. I enjoy exercise, but from experience I have known boxers who have stopped training and put on a lot of weight, but who are still very tough, and other people who are fat but have "Fast hands" ........as to the superior technique thing........I do believe that there is such a thing ...and that with the right knowledge and technique you can put somebody down very quickly. Nowadays I think of martial arts in a more holistic way...........how does it fit into my life, and for what reason or reasons.......and how does it work for self defence. The self defence skills are only part of a much greater picture. A lot of folks train as if a blood ninja is gonna jump out of a bush and flourish a sword at 30 feet away then come charging at them, while they get into their correct fighting stance. I believe that the range will be much closer and that there will be some kind of prelude.which some folks call the "interview stage"....where they will talk and threaten......so I do specific techniques for that very close in range and train them hard...I have gone to clubs in the past were they have had folks running up and down the Dojo, doing jumping jacks and playing at wheelbarrows or pushups and situps.....Me I do them at home and I concentrate more on fighting moves. Nothing better than punching a bag to get you fit to fight With those clubs I avoid them like the plague

You know why boxers are tough even when middle aged? Because they actually hit eachother. They know how to get hit.

How do you ease someone into live hard fighting? Conditioning is a great way to break the fear of getting hit for free fighting or sparring.

An MMA guy i train with, a purple belt in BJJ under straight blast gym and with some boxing experience, respects conditioning for it's psychological benefits and how it teaches taking a hit.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:06 pm

Quote
"You know why boxers are tough even when middle aged? Because they actually hit eachother. They know how to get hit. "

don't be silly

they know how to take a hit i.e. roll with a punch,slip a punch, bob and weave..but it's just plain dumb to stand there and let folks hit you...and the most important thing that Jeff alluded to is that they Train hard........and when they get older they still have some muscle memory left and some muscle. Your average out of condition karateka would last a nano second against a good boxer.

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:21 am

jorvik wrote:Quote
"You know why boxers are tough even when middle aged? Because they actually hit eachother. They know how to get hit. "

don't be silly they know how to take a hit i.e. roll with a punch,slip a punch, bob and weave..but it's just plain dumb to stand there and let folks hit you...and the most important thing that Jeff alluded to is that they Train hard........and when they get older they still have some muscle memory left and some muscle. Your average out of condition karateka would last a nano second against a good boxer.

Out of condition boxers would not last a nano second against a good boxer.

And go watch a boxing match and look at the faces of the fighters. And when we condition, sometimes we absorb and move with the strikes. Easy to practice and insert into conditioning along with how to take a hit.

or actually SPAR with boxers and kickboxers(i have) they get hit, they hit back. The more they spar, the more they learn to get hit hard. No, i am NOT saying boxers and kickboxers go 100 percent all the time, but even going 70 or sixty percent is good and alive.

Im sure jake can talk about this.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:16 pm

Adam
I am not saying "Don't condition" ( and you are a bit late into this discussion BTW....we've covered all that)
What I am saying is that it is not one of the things that you outright need to do..........I think that to fight you need to be fit, and again if you want MA's to benefit your life fitness is a great thing

...Now again IMHO I have seen folks who condition and they are fat and unfit.....to my mind if they want to fight they need to be fit first and then if they have got any time left .then maybe do some conditioning, I also find some laziness here
it is very,very easy to just stand there and hit each others arms and shins.........but try going all out hitting as fast and hard as you can for 2 minutes on a heavy bag. Take that as one round, then build on it and do a couple of rounds....You will see big guys falling and wheezing after 1 round
.and some little guy who has trained aright still going strong after 10 minutes

.........as you get older, as I have you have to cut down, now the most that I do is 3x2minute rounds so I'm not incredibly fit, but I have imprinted in my psyche that if the brown stuff hits the whirly thing that I will move quick and I know what I can do....however, with the condtioning thing you don't have that all you know is that against a friend in the Dojo you can whack away at each others arms and legs...in a streetfight the guy will be going all out for your head or a body shot or the kidneys, maybe headbutts..so where does the arm pounding come in there

See I've seen clips of one guy who used to post here and he and some other bloke are basically moving up and down the Dojo moving real slow and exchanging shots at one another...huffing and puffing all the while

.....now I never ever throw just one punch ( I don't think that Uechi does it either.......I believe that you throw them in threes)...........but
Say in a fight I'd throw three punches to the face, or palm heels, then maybe I'd get the bitch slaps in after that.or grab hold of the guy and give him a couple of dead legs i.e. knee kicks to his thigh.and I mean about three or four....I don't know anyone who can condition against that type of thing............and I am not saying don't do it, I'm just telling you that where I come from that is the kind of attack I expect..and we haven't even covered knives or other weapons

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:47 am

I think 'conditioning' in this context--to take blows better--is very simply a part of all contact arts/sports... If you are making contact you are conditioning yourself and others. The higher the level of the contact the higher level of the conditioning.. It's also quite possible to over condition or to overly focus on it--it's just another attribute..

I think some folks are confused as to why or may disagree when/if they see conditioning as a main focus. Typically it is a byproduct of regular contact training... IMO it need not be the main focus of training in a broad and well rounded training curriculum when and if contact is simply a regular part of that training...

On the other hand if that's your thing then go for it and who cares what anyone else thinks??

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:52 am

JimHawkins wrote:I think 'conditioning' in this context--to take blows better--is very simply a part of all contact arts/sports... If you are making contact you are conditioning yourself and others. The higher the level of the contact the higher level of the conditioning.. It's also quite possible to over condition or to overly focus on it--it's just another attribute..

I think some folks are confused as to why or may disagree when/if they see conditioning as a main focus. Typically it is a byproduct of regular contact training... IMO it need not be the main focus of training in a broad and well rounded training curriculum when and if contact is simply a regular part of that training...

On the other hand if that's your thing then go for it and who cares what anyone else thinks??

You can do regular conditioning while making movement the main focus of your training. The conditioning helps alot, especially if your partners know how to punch.

You don't have to spend 50 minutes of a two hour class conditioning. It can get don far faster and still be beneficial.

ANd jorvick is making big cuts against karate in general, ive seen far more respect for kyokushin and any sort full contact karate school/style by the MMA/Muay thai/Boxing. Infact, the best of the best all use lots of movement.

Ive actually trained with boxers and kickboxers, i know just how well a karateka will/can do against them. I know at least two, one commented how he respects Rick because he thinks conditioning is a good drill, another actually does conditioning.

www.realselfdefensecenter.com

www.dragonmma.ca

g2g, would go in more detail.

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:23 am

AAAhmed46 wrote: You can do regular conditioning while making movement the main focus of your training. The conditioning helps alot, especially if your partners know how to punch.

Not sure what you mean by making movement the focus.. In any case as I have said I have no problem with conditioning, but it can and is also done as a part of any other contact training, which means you are always conditioning............ See what I mean?

AAAhmed46 wrote: ANd jorvick is making big cuts against karate in general, ive seen far more respect for kyokushin and any sort full contact karate school/style by the MMA/Muay thai/Boxing. Infact, the best of the best all use lots of movement.

If you say so.. I am not sure what you mean by 'lots of movement' I am an advocate of *conservation of movement* but that's me.. In any case it's off topic as far as I can see here...

What Jorvick says/does is his own business and again has nothing to do with me and this topic... I fail to see why folks get so upset just because someone says something contrary to what they do or think.. There will always be those who disagree on almost any topic imaginable--so what?

Conditioning is good, conditioning is great go ahead and condition all you like..

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:27 am

Quote
"ANd jorvick is making big cuts against karate in general, ive seen far more respect for kyokushin and any sort full contact karate school/style by the MMA/Muay thai/Boxing. Infact, the best of the best all use lots of movement. "

I'm Sorry I don't understand that

...unless in your mind karate is just about conditioning, could that be it?........in which case I would say that the karate that I studied ( i.e. Goju ) was a lot more involved than that, although they did do conditioning.
If you are only doing conditioning then you don't need to go to a karate school to do it, just sit at home and hit yourself with a stick............FWIW I have some very clear guidelines for what I do and why I do it and one of them is that I will never go to a school and pay good money, for something that I can quite happily do at home and on my own

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:28 pm

Not sure what you mean by making movement the focus.. In any case as I have said I have no problem with conditioning, but it can and is also done as a part of any other contact training, which means you are always conditioning............ See what I mean?

basically, your opponent moves with every punch, absorbs it, using footwork or body movement. Sometimes, they just move and you miss or you compensate and hit.

At a beginner level, it teaches students not to hesitate when striking, and deadens the fear of getting hit. At an advanced level, you learn to move with a strike, and once again, not to fear it. Your torso is a very large part of your body, a big target. At higher levels you can also abosrb or 'flow' and evade. One of rick's students does it all the time when conditioning.

And you know what? Maybe it can be done a part of other contact training as you say, maybe it is better....

BUT EVEN IF IT IS, the whole arguement that it's not needed because boxers and Thai boxers don't do it and kick ass is dead....because they DO do it. They "stand there" just like the karateka do. This is why i get pissed off reading this. THe assumption that karateka lose to boxers because of conditioning? I mean, i do think there tends to be training practices done by some schools that hold them back compared to boxers and kickboxers, but conditioning is not one of them.

Boxers and kickboxers conditioning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=---lMjvtqXs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knt2iHzVr8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMUABdQm ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TxUvzvk ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=427DOHxV ... re=related

If you say so.. I am not sure what you mean by 'lots of movement' I am an advocate of *conservation of movement* but that's me.. In any case it's off topic as far as I can see here...

Meaning they don't just stand there and take hits. Ive heard an FMA guy once say he doesn't like how boxers square off and stand infront of eachother banging away, but anyone who has done any boxing knows that they also look for the superior angle just like FMA(which is why they go so good together). Sometimes, they just don't get it(the angle) I know chunners and CMA practitioners, and they don't advocate standing still infront of an oppnent, they promote angles.

What Jorvick says/does is his own business and again has nothing to do with me and this topic... I fail to see why folks get so upset just because someone says something contrary to what they do or think.. There will always be those who disagree on almost any topic imaginable--so what?

Conditioning is good, conditioning is great go ahead and condition all you like..

Because i take martial arts very seriously.

Because he makes generalizations and assumptions about training and conditioning it self "a good boxer will always take out a karateka" well, a good boxer will take out other boxers....thats why he's a good boxer, and not a bad boxer.
I mean schit, i love boxing, i love it alot, it's really fun and it's really damn useful in martial arts.

But just because a boxer doesn't do something(they do conditioning) doesn't mean it isn't beneficial.

I don't see boxers pulling gaurd, double or single legging, i don't see boxers throwing low round house kicks or front kicks.

DOes that make them bad techniques? I don't see thai boxers doing hip throws. Does that make it bad?

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:31 pm

On and unrelated note, damn muay thai is t3h sexxor.