your current thinking on conditioning

[hoshin]

i think of body pounding/ conditioning as a more defensive tool then an offensive one. while i enjoy using a makiwara or heavybag, i am worried about the compression in the joints. for years i would swing a 70 pound heavy bag and side kick it on its return swing. at 40 now the result in my knees in not a good one. i can not scientificly blame kicking the bag for this but one has to wonder its effects. i also punched the bag daily but no ill effects in my wrists as of yet so who knows.

in many real life assaults the forearms and shins take the brunt of force and damage while trying to protect the body. even people who have only watched a crime drama on tv knows they always look at the forearms for defensive wounds.
so arm and leg pounding helps develop these areas to protect them from serious damage.
conditioning also helps build up the muscular tissue and connective tendons. this will help the joint maintain its structure. example would be a round kick to the knee area. a conditioned person has a better chance of not sustaining damage to that joint then a non conditioned person.


Jorvic has a good point about time spent VS time wasted.

we do not live in a society that fights everyday. i have seen body conditioning at some of its extreems. i have often thought to myself how much is enough? that is a personal question.

it will take time to develop a conditioned body , could your time be better spend ?
is the result worth the effort? personal questions, but lets not dismiss what is possible for what is desired.

[Shana Moore]

there are four main areas that conditioning affects, the bone , the muscles, the tendons and the nerve sensors.

this is something i wrote. i am sorry for it being a little long but it is on the bones only and i could post more on the other areas if desired.

Yes, please do! I'd like to know more about the science behind the concept of conditioining, and this is really interesting reading!

Thank you Hoshin and Bill for the good medical background and anecdotal affirmations! More more!

Ray, on a tv serial (the one where the two guys go out for a few days training in a style and then fight..yeah, whatever...fun watching though) I saw some wing chung work with a wooden stand used to condition the forearms...isn't that similar to arm pounding? I wholly agree with you that you should train to usage...but it seems you are training to what you use, not what you might have to block with? I'm seeing some conflict in what you're saying, so please help clarify...and I'm missing something! (although, hoshin just reiterated my question and phrased it better...so clarification might be good for all!)

Hoshin, good questions...for me personally, I want to add this as part of my regular personal training...gentle but consistent is my current goal...I'm not looking for the super calloused knuckles, etc I've seen in some of my research...just stronger hands and bones....but yes, as stated above...more on the other systems besides bones, please!

[Bill Glasheen]

Jorvic has a good point about time spent VS time wasted.

we do not live in a society that fights everyday. i have seen body conditioning at some of its extreems. i have often thought to myself how much is enough? that is a personal question.

it will take time to develop a conditioned body , could your time be better spend ?
is the result worth the effort? personal questions, but lets not dismiss what is possible for what is desired.

I think many people here are missing the point.

Let me repeat myself. One needs to start in this business by leaving the ego at home. Forget the boogeyman, and forget your fighting scenario (of doom).

Are you going to do martial arts, or do you want to take a dance or Pilates class? If it's the latter, there are plenty of them around, and plenty of spandex-clad women happy to lead you forward in that venue.

If you want to do martial arts, you need to work with a partner in some kind of less-than-cooperative venue. And in that venue, arms and legs and such will be flying at considerable velocity.

Sure, sure... Your own Master Hot Shot can dispatch of all the believers in class who come at him/her, and not rearrange a hair on his head. But even if this was true and he was that good, how did that happen? Not in a vacuum. One only gets to that Platonic ideal through years and years of partner training.

God knows that I get the worst beatings by working with white belts as partners. Especially the big ones (whom I take on so they won't hurt others...). These folks who don't know what they're supposed to do when they work with you are unpredictable enough that you can count on getting wacked in any number of unpredictable and unimaginable ways. (Good training for me, by the way. )

I couldn't imagine doing the work I do WITH people on a daily basis in class without a certain threshold of conditioning. And this isn't just something you acquire and that's it. It's something you need to maintain. And if you want to be in this for the long run - and I've been in it for close to 40 years - then you've got to start training smart so you don't diminish your quality of life and/or your practice.

The question is never IF you should do this. And a Uechika quite frankly shouldn't be spending a whole lot of time taking shots from a non-Uechika about how they should or shouldn't train to develop their skills. The question here is the optimal path to whatever end one wishes to achieve. And even if that's to have a fun activity to do a few times a week, that means time spent conditioning the body so you don't hurt yourself. It's just part of the program - if you want to be smart about it and have some sense of self preservation.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Shana
Quote
"And a Uechika quite frankly shouldn't be spending a whole lot of time taking shots from a non-Uechika about how they should or shouldn't train to develop their skills"

I do not have the power to delete posts , Which sadly Bill has the power to do, on his forum. I don't know about yours
If you want my opinion you can have it , but I think it will have to be by PM
fragile minds and fragile skills can do as they want

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't have a problem taking ownership of what I wrote.

And a Uechika quite frankly shouldn't be spending a whole lot of time taking shots from a non-Uechika about how they should or shouldn't train to develop their skills"

I do not have the power to delete posts , Which sadly Bill has the power to do, on his forum. I don't know about yours

What is so alarming about what I wrote, Ray, that you feel it needs to be censored? And why the guilty conscience?

Telling a Uechika not to engage in myriad types of conditioning (training with jars, weights, makiwara, kotekitae, ashikitae, ukemi, etc.) is telling a Uechika not to engage in what makes the collection of activities an art. I'm not sure what is so threatening about all those activities. Virtually all of them have plenty of history - enough to make them evidence-based.

The real issue here is the how, how much, and in what proportion.

My appeal to get people to leave the ego at the door is somewhat related to your post, Ray. You certainly make my point very well for me.

This isn't about impossible scenarios of doom. It's not dodging bullets, bending blades, or beating Mike Tyson (my favorite of the bizarre scenarios). When one focuses on rare scenarios, nothing gets accomplished. When obsessed about outcome, it becomes unachievable. The conditioning process on the other hand has many benefits - particularly if one is thoughtful about the approach and sensitive to the needs of individuals.

Check out this video. This is actually part of a larger body of research that was recently published in a book. (See The Blue Zones: Lessons for Living Longer From the People Who've Lived the Longest.) In the video you will see a very elderly Tomoyose Ryuko engaged in kotekitae - with another elderly man.

Okinawa's Living Relics - Japan

Then listen to what he says in the interview afterwards. Just what is this man talking about? Did it occur to anyone that Tomoyose Sensei is actually enjoying the workout?

- Bill

P.S. Tomoyose's longevity isn't about living a healthy lifestyle as we imagine it. Until recently, he was a smoker. But obviously the negative effects of that were mitigated by other factors.

[hoshin]

Bill,
i didnt miss your point at all. i agree with you 100%
as your conditioning increases so can the intensity in which you train. you really can't get the full enjoyment out of doing dan kumite untill you can go full tilt.
i like to visit other dojo's of all styles and i was invited to partake in a class in this particular school , but i declined the invite because the intensity level was so low i would have felt like i was working with elementary school kids rather then adults. i find more joy in my class when you can step things up and you need the conditioning to do that, day after day , year after year.

but my point was , how much is enough? like body building some people are happy with just getting to the gym 3 times a week, while others need to morph their body into the picture perfect extreem like Arnold. always looking in the mirror thinking its not enough.
you can do that with conditioning too. taking it to levels beyond the normal. one of my friends and students has that same drive to always be better, he could really spend more time on kata but he will hammer away at his shins with a wooden mallet for all its worth. he is at that point where partner work is no longer an option. it hurts us too much lol.

[Bill Glasheen]

I hear you - hence the need to leave the ego at the door.

It's fun to see how far you can get - when you are in your 20s and 30s. Been there, done that. After a while, then one needs a paradigm shift. If you don't enjoy what you are doing, that kind of goal-oriented behavior is doomed to eventual failure.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Bill
You have deleted my posts on your forum before, and other folks as well.........sadly when you can't win an argument you resort to other tactics..you seem to want to be the smartest kid on the block and when your arguments don't stand up to the test then you delete all objectors...........in an environment like this there is no point in argueing with you... because you simply press the delete button ..something that we can't do.a very unfair advantage to you....but in the end you loose...............when you have no respect then you certainly loose, you can argue this as much as you want to.but many will agree with me................and as I have said before .................If Shana wants my opinion then she can have it " IN PRIVATE" I don't want to deal with your fragile EGO!!

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm not deleting your posts, Ray. If they are being deleted, then you're offending someone else. Can't help you, sport.

Did you look at the video? Care to read the book I posted?

BTW, you're a little loose with your spelling there...

Get some sleep, Ray.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Amazon Exclusive: A Q&A with Dan Buettner

Question: In your book, you identify the "Power 9": nine habits or behaviors all Blue Zone populations have in common. Could you talk about one or two that the average American takes most for granted?

Dan Buettner: Many Americans exercise too hard. The life expectancy of our species, for 99.9% of human history, was about 30 years. The fact that medicine has pushed life expectancy to age 78 doesn't mean our bodies were designed for three-quarters of a century of pounding. Muscles tear, joints wear out, backs go out. The world's longest-lived people tend to do regular, low intensity physical activity, like walking with friends, gardening and playing with their children. The key is to do something light every day.

****

It's worth mentioning that many people condition too hard as well - leading eventually to them quitting because they can't maintain that level of intensity through their lifetime.

It's fine to have periods of your life where you push the envelope to see how far you can get. Been there, done that. I wanted to see if I could reach world class status in martial arts. But if I had not adapted with age and changes in life priorities, I would have quit a long time ago.

Meanwhile... some of my best progress in Uechi Ryu in terms of doing these unusual techniques came long after I lowered the intensity and just focused on enjoying the process. Over time, I was able to progress in ways I couldn't with shorter, more intense training.

Go figure...

Modern pharmacology understands the dose-response phenomenon. If x is good, 2x isn't necessarily better. Optimal training is almost a black art. Almost...

- Bill

[Shana Moore]

Shana
Quote
"And a Uechika quite frankly shouldn't be spending a whole lot of time taking shots from a non-Uechika about how they should or shouldn't train to develop their skills"

I do not have the power to delete posts , Which sadly Bill has the power to do, on his forum. I don't know about yours
If you want my opinion you can have it , but I think it will have to be by PM
fragile minds and fragile skills can do as they want

Ray,
I do have the ability to delete post, which is essential for a forum moderator; howver, I only do so when a comment is completely over the top and abusive. I honestly believe in those little concepts known as freedom speech and honest and open dialogue. So I will act to prevent abuse, but not opinions, especially when they have an important/interesting point.

This comment was overly blunt with a slight edge, but it was not commenting on your personal character or the worth of your opinion. It was Bill's own opinion, and should be taken as such.

I choose to take it as properly pointing out that Uechi is not your chosen style, and any comments must be taken in context. While I wouldn't ask a siamese how to bark, that doesn't mean the siamese doesn't know how to communicate with impact and style. Anyone that has ever lived with one knows that communication is NOT something most siamese lack!

That said, please continue to post your thoughts, ideas and opinions here and do not hide your thoughts. Everyone doesn't have to agree here to be heard. In fact, that would make for very boring discourse.

As I commented in Vann's forum, and I believe it true of all online forums, and pertinent here:

I like knowledge and seeing other viewpoints. I take what I can learn from, and leave the rest. I may not always agree with everything posted on these forums...but I do learn lots...so post away, I'm interested in reading more [...] and then I will make up my own mind what is useful.

nuff said?

[Shana Moore]

Hoshin and Bill,
You both bring up points I was noticing in many of the articles I read, and something I've been thinking about...which is gradual progression, moderation, and end goals.

Well, I can certainly say THIS is NOT my end goal:


I just want to be better able to do partner drills, and be better for my own sake in sparring and general health. I've noticed I am more "bone tender" than I'd like and want to toughen that up a bit.

That said, I do want to feel that I am also better prepared for self defense, if needed. I believe in caution, awareness and preparedness, without going the route of paranoia or conspiracy theorist. Violence can happen anywhere at anytime. I'm not sure MA's are always better prepared, but it certainly can't hurt!

And....whether I really want to admit it or not..there is a little bit of the "cool" vibe in challenging yourself etc going on

[Bill Glasheen]

When Kanei Uechi and Ryuko Tomoyose visited dojos in the United States (latter 1960s), they witnessed the type of self mutilation you see above. Kanei and/or Ryuko would go up to such a person in front of the whole class, and squeeze the joint. The look of pain they got as a response told the whole story. All that conditioning for what?

Then Tomoyose would occasionally do some demos where he'd challenge someone to punch him. In mid-punch, he'd hit the fist in-between the knuckles with the knuckle of his boshiken. Again... There was something he was capable of doing - without evidence of self-mutilation - that others were not.

The story is an old one. It reminds me of number 1 son who now as a teenager has little in the way of setting long-term goals. Someone I had HOPED would be around for a long time (his wrestling coach and math teacher) had something he used to tell him. "School is not a sprint; it is a marathon." It was no surprise to me that this coach had won state championships 5 years in a row. Sadly another school hired him away to be their Dean of Students.

I do want to feel that I am also better prepared for self defense, if needed. I believe in caution, awareness and preparedness, without going the route of paranoia or conspiracy theorist. Violence can happen anywhere at anytime. I'm not sure MA's are always better prepared, but it certainly can't hurt!

The thing I like to tell Uechi karate students is the same thing you try to tell teenagers (which often falls on deaf ears). You can't do this all at once. You need to settle down and find a reason and/or a way to enjoy the journey. The destination will distract and/or intimidate you. The journey meanwhile can give you something in return - right away.

Again... You can't get good without working with a partner. And you can't work with a partner without a certain amount of conditioning so you don't get all banged and bruised up. So focusing on what you need to do to derive pleasure from the everyday give-and-take is a great way to approach it. If you do, you can spend more quality partner time. And the more quality partner time you have...

On the tempering of weapons, I like to point out the short-term benefits of working the hands and feet. Everyone benefits on an everyday basis by having stronger, more coordinated hands that can work in conjunction with energy generated at the core. You can play piano better. You can open a jar of spaghetti sauce easier. You can carry 12-packs of Diet Dew with a boshiken hand, and get funny looks from the cashier at CVS. You can climb easier. Etc., etc. Same with the sokusen toes. Stronger big toes means better balance. That's a benefit that you can enjoy today.

Focusing on the impossible scenario will be self-defeating. Listening to people who try to ridicule what you're achieving by throwing impossible scenarios at you will be self-defeating.

Getting stronger and more coordinated is a good thing. Having good circulation in the periphery - especially with age - is a VERY good thing. (Particularly for people at risk for diabetes.)

Enjoy the journey. IMO if you can do that, the destination will take care of itself.

With that, I'll leave you with the words of a Hollywood actor (from Magnum Force, 1973).


--------------------------- A man's got to know his limitations



- Bill

[Shana Moore]

...and once again I hear the lesson of patience (not one of my stronger points, but I'm working on it! )

Seriously, I get it...slow and steady, enjoy the journey, and find what it is about the practice as a whole that motivates you .

For me, it's learning and growing in what I can do....slow will work, as long as progress is being made!

Nice to know it can be done without self mutilation though. I'm not a girly-girl...but I do like the occasional manicure, etc. I already get confused looks when I do the rare pedicure and tell them NOT to remove the callouses on my feet!

Hoshin, still waiting to hear about those other systems!

[hoshin]

hi Shana, i will get to it i promise.

Bill, i agree with your slow and steady theory. its good advise. i remember Van saying it took him 10 years to get his sokusen/ toes to where he was happy with the results.

however.
i have been witness to a Uechi senior discussion where they were all saying that conditioning is out dated and useless.
that kind of thought worries me that the pengulem has gone to far in the other direction, yes over doing anything is bad, but not enough can be just as bad. as these seniors teach the next generation there is the real posiblity that conditioning would be a lost art. those that do practise it will also have a "glass ceiling" to aspire to. never reaching the true potential.

the truth of the matter is if one goes TO easy and to soft it doesnt matter how long you train you will never get any noticable results.

just like body building you have to continually increase the amount of resistance for the muscle to continually grow.
if you only lift 10 pounds every day you will never get to 20, 30, 50, 100.

i do agree with everything that has been said,, if you have bruises, callouses on your knuckles and deformation your doing it wrong!!