your current thinking on conditioning

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Postby jorvik » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:55 pm

No , you misunderstand me...........to train for self defence you cannot train for a peak.......as you can in sport..........simply because you don't know when you will be attacked........ :wink:
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Postby Shana Moore » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:30 pm

jorvik wrote:No , you misunderstand me...........to train for self defence you cannot train for a peak.......as you can in sport..........simply because you don't know when you will be attacked........ :wink:


AH!!! My apologies! THAT actually makes sense...so all you can do is train to be prepared. So don't be a maniac. Agreed.
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Postby MikeK » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:37 pm

jorvik wrote:No , you misunderstand me...........to train for self defence you cannot train for a peak.......as you can in sport..........simply because you don't know when you will be attacked........ :wink:


Yup, spot on Ray. Better to keep a reasonable level of fitness and keep the training so that you're not always being injured.
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Postby jorvik » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:53 pm

Yeah Mike
and you can always have a heavy session now and then.......when you take ownership and responsibility for your martial art.you can do anything that you want...I train with all sorts of things.sticks ,knives, karambits and different body parts :lol: .......and because it is designed for me and by me I always find it enjoyable :wink:
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:06 am

If you are absorbing blows (which I read as moving away), how does that still apply conditioning? Do I misunderstand?


Hello shana!

You can move away from it, or you can "Wave" to it. Even before my school became big on sonnon, we've been playing with this. Basically, it teaches you to not take the force of a punch if you don't think you can take it, or simply don't feel like getting hit(you can always ask you partner to go lighter) It teaches 'rolling' with the punches. You can also use it to get a hold of a limb, depending on the nature of the strike(hard to do with 'bouncing' strikes, but not impossible). I personally have problems doing this from my chest, though can do it on my stomach(still needs work though).

Moving with the strike gives you a choice to train one of two things: Body toughening and mental toughening or a form of evasion. If you take the strike, your conditioning. If you don't, your moving with it and avoid getting hit.

Cardio training works on stamina for those longer sparring sessions, as well as just general health.


I find actually cardio is great for developing speed and footwork more then stamina. Scratch that, it helps develop stamina, but not for an 'exchange'. I know it sounds utterly nuts but hear me out.

I find for sparring/fighting bag and pad work help more for not gassing in an exchange, while the running is overall good for you, and great for footwork. Basically stamina while using movement(Does this make sense?)

I had a boxing coach(www.realselfdefensecenter.com) say that stamina for exchanges and grappling isn't as areobic as footwork.

eh...make sense?

What do you guys say?
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:33 am

This will be my last post on the whole movement vs standing in one place:

In regards to kyokushin using movement/skill, just work under their ruleset. They cover, they move out, they parry strikes to the body, then don't just take them. True, there are many who just grit their teeth and just stand infront of eachother and exchange blows.
that isn't the totality of the style or it's overall practice, particularly among smaller karateka.

Among boxer you will see this too, among muay thai practitioners, this is seen as well. Is it reflective of the art or the best of the best? Hell no. Go watch Matsui in karate, or Bukkoww for Thai boxing (i totally spelled his name wrong)and Masato.(Dude kicks with his instep. Works for him though, who am i to critique that?)
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Postby Shana Moore » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:11 pm

[quote="AAAhmed46]You can move away from it, or you can "Wave" to it. [...]It teaches 'rolling' with the punches. You can also use it to get a hold of a limb,[...]Moving with the strike gives you a choice to train one of two things: Body toughening and mental toughening or a form of evasion. If you take the strike, your conditioning. If you don't, your moving with it and avoid getting hit.[/quote]

Thanks Adam, that makes sense. I can grasp the basics of this mentally, but I think, as you imply, it takes a lot of partner work. Cool stuff!

[quote="AAAhmed46]I find for sparring/fighting bag and pad work help more for not gassing in an exchange, while the running is overall good for you, and great for footwork. Basically stamina while using movement(Does this make sense?)

I had a boxing coach(www.realselfdefensecenter.com) say that stamina for exchanges and grappling isn't as areobic as footwork.

eh...make sense?

What do you guys say?[/quote]

Is it that exchanges and grappling involve conscious targeted thought as well as action, whereas basic cardio can sometimes be a mindless or mind unconnected activity? So doing bag work, etc. builds in that physical-mental stamina instead of just "doing it"?

even close?
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:07 am

Shana Moore wrote:[quote="AAAhmed46]You can move away from it, or you can "Wave" to it. [...]It teaches 'rolling' with the punches. You can also use it to get a hold of a limb,[...]Moving with the strike gives you a choice to train one of two things: Body toughening and mental toughening or a form of evasion. If you take the strike, your conditioning. If you don't, your moving with it and avoid getting hit.


Thanks Adam, that makes sense. I can grasp the basics of this mentally, but I think, as you imply, it takes a lot of partner work. Cool stuff!

[quote="AAAhmed46]I find for sparring/fighting bag and pad work help more for not gassing in an exchange, while the running is overall good for you, and great for footwork. Basically stamina while using movement(Does this make sense?)

I had a boxing coach(www.realselfdefensecenter.com) say that stamina for exchanges and grappling isn't as areobic as footwork.

eh...make sense?

What do you guys say?[/quote]

Is it that exchanges and grappling involve conscious targeted thought as well as action, whereas basic cardio can sometimes be a mindless or mind unconnected activity? So doing bag work, etc. builds in that physical-mental stamina instead of just "doing it"?

even close?[/quote]


Yep, lots of partner work.



As for stamina, let me put it like this:

Sparring consists of striking at your opponents, as well as moving around. When it comes to movement, such as moving toward, away from, to the side or around your opponent, i find running really helps alot. Running resembles it enough to improve just how long you can move around.

But when it comes for actually punching, kicking, exchanges, it's either aneorobic or just different, but i find hitting the bag and padwork help more. Maybe just because it's similar to the actual activity or something else.

Ive seen guys who have run triathlons gas within five minutes of boxing and wrestling.

Ive seen an amateur boxer gas within minutes of BJJ.



....keep in mind, i could also be horribly horribly wrong about this.
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Postby Shana Moore » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:17 pm

Adam, I think your thoughts make a lot of sense and are based on your experience..so they're unlikely to be horribly wrong..at worse misattributed..but that's why we have these discussions. FWIW, I think you've got a good idea here!.
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Postby jorvik » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:52 pm

Well this it really in a nutshell...and why you pick a style, because you can't do them all, or a little bit of each. You have to be picky :lol: ..........and then for streetfighting it's different again. Great grapplers don't make great punchers and Vice Versa.because you use different muscles so you have to train differently.....trick is IMHO is to choose what you want for you..through a small door enter deeply...some styles compliment each other some don't
..so try to pick ones that do.Uechi goes well with Wing-Chun and probaly escrima and certainly mantis.not so with some other styles :wink:
If you do a style which operates in a certain range..i.e, very close such as wing chun...then you will always be using techniques to get into that range, everything will be geared to get you to have the best fight that you can and on your terms, if the guy is a kicker then you close in , if he is a grappler then you use escapse and stay just outside grappling range...........are there techniques to do this?......there sure are 8) .and it will change your body shape as you develop muscles to do the new techniques :wink:
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:36 pm

jorvik wrote:Well this it really in a nutshell...and why you pick a style, because you can't do them all, or a little bit of each. You have to be picky :lol: ..........and then for streetfighting it's different again. Great grapplers don't make great punchers and Vice Versa.because you use different muscles so you have to train differently.....trick is IMHO is to choose what you want for you..through a small door enter deeply...some styles compliment each other some don't
..so try to pick ones that do.Uechi goes well with Wing-Chun and probaly escrima and certainly mantis.not so with some other styles :wink:
If you do a style which operates in a certain range..i.e, very close such as wing chun...then you will always be using techniques to get into that range, everything will be geared to get you to have the best fight that you can and on your terms, if the guy is a kicker then you close in , if he is a grappler then you use escapse and stay just outside grappling range...........are there techniques to do this?......there sure are 8) .and it will change your body shape as you develop muscles to do the new techniques :wink:


It's starting to change, GSP isn't the only guy good at all three ranges. Hell look at randy couture! Box with him, your in trouble, clinch, your in worse trouble, ground....well, gonzonga(spelling) was a BJJ guy, and he survived.

Fedor.....well he's fedor.

Im seeing a new wave of MMA fighters....good at all three ranges. or thier masters at one, formidable in others.

GOtta get comfortable in all ranges now. With the popularity of the UFC, training methodology is evolving and changing so damn fast. It's scary.


Though MMA is a sport, the level of comfort they have in different ranges is really something impressive, and has transitioned to street fight training(how many guys throw clumsy shoots now in street fights?)
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Postby jorvik » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:22 pm

Quote
"how many guys throw clumsy shoots now in street fights?)"

As far as I know nobody in my city would be daft enough to go for a shoot in a streetfight..........you are just asking for a kicking, or a key in the eye, or a cut from a craft knife........if you want martial arts for fighting rather than sport then you have to be very selective in what you do, and consider the arena you are likely to be in.a crowded bar, a lonely street.....I don't like wrestling type moves because they are for one on one, in real defence you won't always have that option.
CQB can't be sportified but it is great for gutterfighting :wink:
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:04 pm

jorvik wrote:Quote
"how many guys throw clumsy shoots now in street fights?)"

As far as I know nobody in my city would be daft enough to go for a shoot in a streetfight..........you are just asking for a kicking, or a key in the eye, or a cut from a craft knife........if you want martial arts for fighting rather than sport then you have to be very selective in what you do, and consider the arena you are likely to be in.a crowded bar, a lonely street.....I don't like wrestling type moves because they are for one on one, in real defence you won't always have that option.
CQB can't be sportified but it is great for gutterfighting :wink:


Seen video of it though, guys throwing clumsy shots. Pulling guard(usually without any idea what to do with it other then close it)

Certainly someone can use this time to draw a knife or hold you down and their buddies do so.

I find learning wrestling is great, if for no other reason then to prevent the clinch, prevent shots and keep from getting taken down. If you can stop a 'perfect' shoot, it should be easier to stop a clumsy shot. If at most, to use the clinch as a wapon or to hit people with pavement. Personally, any time ive worked multiple opponents, and yes, clinching is very risky. But the better you are in the clinch, the easier it is to break it.
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Postby jorvik » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:37 pm

End gane is don't train for something that is unlikely to happen.......BJJ is awesome..but real world unlikely to happen :wink:
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:19 am

jorvik wrote:End gane is don't train for something that is unlikely to happen.......BJJ is awesome..but real world unlikely to happen :wink:


Alot of fights end up on the ground. Maybe not as much as the gracies say so, but alot of fights end up on the ground. Better you jitts is, the faster you get up.
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