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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:04 pm 
Adam
And I am not sure if your post was directed at me or Jim :? ...but I'll answer............I haven't said don't condition :P ...but to me , well I get the impression that the only thing that you do is condition, which is why you are so sensitive about it , would you be as annoyed if I said only do the 3 original katas of Uechi ryu and discard all the other information added by the Uechi Family?
.how about if I said don't do the Bunkai....go and invent your own, would that annoy you as much?........but No I have said the unforgiveable thing..........that conditioning is not relevant, or really not that important :roll: ...that fitness is more important.
FWIW..I do condition..but not in the way you do...........I condition when I cross arms with the Ving tsun group that I train with, and also when we go full contact doing escrima.....and I have been known to tap my legs with an escrima stick from time to time , although I class that as boredom and not training..................is that important IMHO No.not even close...................in the past I have seen clips of the group that you train with, so I will comment, if you have trained with Boxers then they are not the boxers that I have trained with........................Really you have no anger in your eyes..............No fire in your soul
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"They have given us into the hands of the new unhappy lords,
Lords without anger and honour, who dare not carry their swords.
They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs,
Their doors are shut in the evenings; and they know no songs.

The Secret People, G.K. Chesterton


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:00 am 
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jorvik wrote:
Adam
And I am not sure if your post was directed at me or Jim :? ...but I'll answer............I haven't said don't condition :P ...but to me , well I get the impression that the only thing that you do is condition, which is why you are so sensitive about it , would you be as annoyed if I said only do the 3 original katas of Uechi ryu and discard all the other information added by the Uechi Family?
.how about if I said don't do the Bunkai....go and invent your own, would that annoy you as much?........but No I have said the unforgiveable thing..........that conditioning is not relevant, or really not that important :roll: ...that fitness is more important.
FWIW..I do condition..but not in the way you do...........I condition when I cross arms with the Ving tsun group that I train with, and also when we go full contact doing escrima.....and I have been known to tap my legs with an escrima stick from time to time , although I class that as boredom and not training..................is that important IMHO No.not even close...................in the past I have seen clips of the group that you train with, so I will comment, if you have trained with Boxers then they are not the boxers that I have trained with........................Really you have no anger in your eyes..............No fire in your soul
Quote
"They have given us into the hands of the new unhappy lords,
Lords without anger and honour, who dare not carry their swords.
They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs,
Their doors are shut in the evenings; and they know no songs.

The Secret People, G.K. Chesterton



I get pissed off because YOU claim that all we do is condition, then somehow say it will get us all killed, because all we do is condition. Well, we don't spend all our time conditioning, but the time i do spend conditioning is well spent. I get pissed because your telling me how i train. Really? How do i train?

It's not that you don't like conditioning, ive met others with the same opinion.

It's that you keep making generalizations about uechi-ryu clubs and practitioners, your consistent and erroneous comparison to boxers and kickboxers claiming they do not conditioning and will beat up all those silly karateka because they spend time only conditioning. (when boxers and kickboxers do condition)

Just look at the clips i posted.



Ive actually COMPETED full contact too, ive also done a jitts competition. One of the coaches of MMA with watched me fight.


Based upon the kickboxers ive talked to, many actually frown upon beating the shins with sticks.

As for no intensity when we condition, whats that supposed to mean? Are you comparing a drill to fighting?Have you seen me condition? Do you stick hands with the intent to do absolute damage to your partner? Then you won't end up sticking hands, you'll fight. It won't look like a pretty drill.

Atleast my group had the balls to post video online for all to see.





And i thought you didn't like training full contact? What about all those posts where you talk about getting old to do full contact training?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:03 am 
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http://www.wilsonkarate.com/forum/viewt ... p?tid=1249


Hadouken!!!!!!!!!

Well, Rick has apparently been following this discussion.

Rick has posted his own material, and as soon as we get a camera, will post more.

What about you Ray? Show us your trainin!!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:09 pm 
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Funny how so many folks don't seem to care what Jorvick says about conditioning and others are completely enveloped in rage...

Not that it will make a lick of difference, but....

Many folks have put down elements of what I do on the NET... My reaction is only to try to explain why we do what we do... And if they still put down our stuff....? My reaction is Big ***** Deal... To become so incensed, so enraged by someone's comments/opinions, to someone stirring the pot, as it were, only serves to elevate the critic to mythic status and call into question one's own 'centeredness..'

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:24 pm 
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How many more pages of this before you guys tire of pissing in eachothers' cornflakes?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:43 pm 
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"How many more pages of this before you guys tire of pissing in eachothers' cornflakes?"

Jason , I'm all done here, I had a polite conversation with Steve which had pretty much ended, then Adam resurected it, and the pissing started .....I really don't see what all the fuss is about, I never have :?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Jason Rees wrote:
How many more pages of this before you guys tire of pissing in eachothers' cornflakes?


Urea for the win!!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:31 pm 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
JimHawkins wrote:
Funny how so many folks don't seem to care what Jorvick says about conditioning and others are completely enveloped in rage...

Not that it will make a lick of difference, but....

Many folks have put down elements of what I do on the NET... My reaction is only to try to explain why we do what we do... And if they still put down our stuff....? My reaction is Big ***** Deal... To become so incensed, so enraged by someone's comments/opinions, to someone stirring the pot, as it were, only serves to elevate the critic to mythic status and call into question one's own 'centeredness..'


It has nothing to do with his opinions of conditioning, rather the veiled insults and overall generalizations. I train with people who think conditioning is useless. They don't annoy me as much as Jorvick. Jorvick says "you do this' when really, i don't. Other critics of conditioning ive seen don't say that. They talk just of the drill.

I jumped in when he did his very very common and oft repeated 'a good boxer will destroy a good karateka'

Well, atleast he didn't talk about mike tyson this time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:14 pm 
Adam
"It has nothing to do with his opinions of conditioning,"


I think it does......I think that you are involved in some kind of cult where
all rational thought is blown to the wind..break loose :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:27 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
Adam
"It has nothing to do with his opinions of conditioning,"


I think it does......I think that you are involved in some kind of cult where
all rational thought is blown to the wind..break loose :wink:


If it has anything to do with rational thought, then why do you keep bringing up the stupid boxer arguement? Thats is what gets me the most out of our discussions. Even when we show clips of boxers, competitive boxers and kickboxers conditioning, you still bring up the whole "hey they don't condition and they can kick everyones ass"

Blarg.


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 Post subject: toss the cornflakes guys
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:28 pm 
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I think it's safe to say they are soggy and no longer worthwhile.

Adam-Thanks for the clips and post. While I love your passion & loyalty, you are flaming the fires and weakening your point with too much protest. I think it's more important to show what you do right and WHY it's good, than to tear someone else's arguement down. For example, I'd like to hear more on movement and absorbing blows, as that addresses the OP. If you are absorbing blows (which I read as moving away), how does that still apply conditioning? Do I misunderstand?

Ray, I can appreciate a good discussion and debate, but I believe bear baiting was made illegal in England quite some time ago. I like that you offer a foil for folks, but let's can the personal bits..mmmkay? You've made some great points about the importance of physical conditioning being equally important. How about speaking to what areas of focus YOU think are the most beneficial (cardio?, arms?, legs?, core?...)

Play nice and stay focused or no pudding!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:51 pm 
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JimHawkins wrote:
AAAhmed46 wrote:
You can do regular conditioning while making movement the main focus of your training. The conditioning helps alot, especially if your partners know how to punch.

AAAhmed46 wrote:
ive seen far more respect for kyokushin and any sort full contact karate school/style by the MMA/Muay thai/Boxing. Infact, the best of the best all use lots of movement.

If you say so.. I am not sure what you mean by 'lots of movement' I am an advocate of *conservation of movement* but that's me.. In any case it's off topic as far as I can see here...


Jim and Adam, I'm intrigued by this conversation and will be starting a new topic. Please feel free to comment on movement vs conservation of movement in that thread. Thank you!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:49 pm 
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"Ray, I can appreciate a good discussion and debate, but I believe bear baiting was made illegal in England quite some time ago. I like that you offer a foil for folks, but let's can the personal bits..mmmkay? You've made some great points about the importance of physical conditioning being equally important. How about speaking to what areas of focus YOU think are the most beneficial (cardio?, arms?, legs?, core?...)

Play nice and stay focused or no pudding!"

Ok Shana ( but it was only a little bear :) )................ok

Quote
"How about speaking to what areas of focus YOU think are the most beneficial (cardio?, arms?, legs?, core?...)

. I'll come to what I focus on in a little bit, but I would like to make one point and that is, to hurt somebody you don't need to be fit, I see it all the time in my line of work, but I've also seen martial artists who have lost their fitness and yet are still very good......only for a couple of seconds mind, but that is all you need. The real violence is like that very quick..over in seconds. I think that a lot of the training, the actual physical training is really to get you to the point where you are prepared to hit somebody.a lot of people would find that very difficult, but violent people can do it very easily.and not just hit but break a glass in your face and that kind of thing.
Now, if we accept that violence is over very quickly then we need to focus on that and develop a stratagy...I think Bill once said that to develop speed i.e. fast twitch receptors you need to lift heavy weights.so really we should focus on that perhaps..if we are truly serious and logical :) ...............but I don't
I love cardio type fitness, and that is what I train for. What I do is use handweights and I'll do it in rounds so I have 2 different weights ( lady's aerobic weights they are )..and one round will comprise of 100 punches with each weight and then 100 punches with no weights, then I use a wrist roller type thing which Bruce lee popularised and roll up a weight 3 times, then I use a 200lb wrist gripper and then 50 situps followed by the first form of Wing-Chun.that is one round and depending on how I feel I may just do 1 or as many as 3..........then I go to poor Bob and do 2 minute rounds on him using wing chun tactics, and then some more weapons rounds using single or double rattan sticks...now it's not a great workout, and I should do more..but it's easily accomplished and sometime you are in the mood for it.and somtimes after a heavy day at work you are not............I think that it is important to train as you feel............Athletes train to peak in their particular activities, but martial artists don't do this, unless they are focused on sport.really if you train for self defence I don't see how you can :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:07 pm 
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ok, having no recent experience in fights and that being very small tiffs compared to real bar brawls or similar violence...I am completely willing to take on faith that you don't have to be fit to do violence...after all, otherwise many beer-bellied, sloppy drunk rednecks wouldn't be so dangerous (no offense intended to the cooler rednecks I have known :lol: ).

I'm also willing to agree that many violent incidents are over quickly, especially if the attack is meant to be a surprise. I'm not sure if that's a fair assessment of all attacks, if the two are equally matched, but I'll accept this concept for the sake of this issue.

That said, if we are focusing on fast twitch muscles, then we'd want to do higher weights, but we'd also want to do some plyometric exercises...those would work the muscles and actions where you switch from standing to moving quickly. It also helps work those stabilizing muscles that allow you to move laterally or at angles. I know this, and need to incorporate more of those into my own routines. :roll:

Your workout routine has some interesting things in it. Something I just started, that I think I will have to ramp up a bit is similar to interval training. On the day that I'm going to work my lower body, I start with some slow kata work. If I have time, I will throw in some type of plyometric jumping. Then I do a weight exercise, and I shoot for moderate to heavy load. In between various weighted exercises, I do 5-10 min sets kicking the wavemaster. This is my cardio interval. I start slow and then try to end faster. I try to keep this up for the 30-40 min I have with no more than 10-15 sec rests (on THAT, I am not always successful, but it's a goal). And..of course..end with some stretching now that muscles are warm and loose.

The reason I'm trying this is that I'm hoping it will increase my fat burn, but it also focuses on the skill sets I'm trying to learn as well as building on some of those fast twitch muscles. That's the THEORY behind it. Let me do this for a month or two before my next switch up, and I'll let you know.

Got a lot of shaping up to work on here! :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:21 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
Athletes train to peak in their particular activities, but martial artists don't do this, unless they are focused on sport.really if you train for self defence I don't see how you can :wink:


Allright now, I think you are making an overly broad and potentially inflammatory statement. In any case, I disagree.

I know many MA'ist that do train to thier particular activities. It depends on what you specifically mean by this (if you aren't just trying to poke the ants nest, that is :evil: ).

If you are training for kicks, then you want to work on glutes, hamstrings, quads, hips, flexibility, and balance.

If you are training for punches, then you are working lats, chest, hips, and some arms. You're also going to work on total body mechanics to get that whip like action down (for some punches), or that power for those shorter chain punches (I don't understand a lot on the mechanics on that last, not being my art...so that may not be the right focus)

Also, in keeping with the OP, you are also doing some conditioning to striking surfaces.

You probably want to incorporate those plyometrics and flexibility training as well.

I believe I've read some posts from GEM about the usefulness of yoga to keeping joints in good health.

Cardio training works on stamina for those longer sparring sessions, as well as just general health.

So, I have a hard time seeing how anyone who is an MAist and trains can't train, at least in part, to what they do. It all works into what you do. So it's really a matter of application and focus on how you train.

AND...any athlete will train the whole body, as unbalanced muscle groups lead to injury and also poor mechanics.

Soooo....can you be more clear on what you mean by that comment?

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