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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:30 am 
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I mentioned on my forum once that when taking over a dojo and calling ‘drop outs’ hoping to get them back_ I spoke to the father of one who was livid with anger due to his son having taken a beating from multiple assailants.

His son had been brainwashed by his former teacher that he was fit to handle ‘any’ attack.

And now his son was creating a habit of negative thinking about what happened that had him blaming himself for the beating, and attacking his self-worth, his self-esteem.

Persons who experience anxiety are not only highly sensitive individuals in dealing with others, but are often quite hard on themselves--harder than an objective individual would be.

I think that what makes a good teacher is also an ability to convey that life is strangely impersonal, and that unless a student comports as a total idiot he/she will not be ‘selected’ to be a victim …..It will be only because of the randomness of life.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:55 pm 
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I forgot to mention a case which recently ocurred near me. A major Taekwondo star upset with not making the Olympic Team changed over and had been training for Ultimate Fighting type of venues, hoping to get picked up at some point I suppose. He has been training for some time for his first match and was assaulted and badly beaten by several attackers.

So call it sport, exercise or self defense can you ever help for total preparedness, regardless of teacher or training methods?

F.

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 Post subject: Would you lose respect?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Good point Fred.

This brings out another possible situation:

Let's suppose you practice a martial art.

You happen to be in the same bar as your sensei (or instructor or whatever), but he hasn't seen you.

Some guy gets into a fight with him. An obviously huge, menacing guy.

The guy beats the **** out of your sensei. Your sensei tried to fight back and lost fair and square.

Would you lose respect for your sensei? Would you quit the class?

What expectations do we place upon our teacher, ourselves?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:28 pm 
I can go a couple of ways on this..........I've done martial arts which were not supposed to be about fighting Tai-Chi and Aikido,,,in fact they are probably the MA's I spent the most time on........and I always hated the dishonesty :evil: ..all the old tales about O'Sensei being super tough and yet the modern guys can't knock a hole in a rice pudding........and the Tai-Chi health thing
Tai-Chi was designed as a fighting art.....so to get the health benefits you must know it as a martial art.............surely? :? ..............then the sword arts..perhaps totally irrelevant, but honest ...they do show you how to fight effectively with a sword :lol: ........and what I do now, a mix of what I think I can fight with and stuff that interests me :wink: ...and yeah I guess it is Holistic......and also Cathartic.......it stops me doing what I know I shouldn't to people I don't like :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:31 pm 
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Jim,
while this thread is not about what a martial art is and is not, i have to say i think your view is very specific so i will change my wording and say that "Asian arts" are more wide range then you give them credit for.

and YES 99.99999 % of the 7 million elderly Chinese who do Tai Chi in the morning couldnt give a rats @$$ about self defense.
i have given my examples already i am not going to go round in circles on this petty thought.

now, on the flip side yes maybe it is time to label and break down the general term "martial arts" into smaller more specific catagories.
so that the consumer knows what they are getting,,,,oh but that would be honesty in advertising. i dont think anyone would want to be known as an inferior art so ,,that aint gonna happen.

people who have been around awhile know what to expect and what they will get just by the name of the art,

uechi karate,
kyokushinkai karate,
wing chun,
aikido,
tae kwon do,
tai chi,

they all paint a different picture in my mind, consumer beware.

all of these arts may or may not be taught for true self defense, personaly i think 99.9 of schools DONT.

besides from my experience i belive most students do not really want to pay the heavy price of really learning self defense. they only want some exersise and some social time and really like the illusion of being tuff.
they want the image without the work.

such is american culture.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:41 am 
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Quote:
besides from my experience i belive most students do not really want to pay the heavy price of really learning self defense. they only want some exersise and some social time and really like the illusion of being tuff.
they want the image without the work.


You nailed it on the head my friend. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:44 am 
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But then is that person really doing a martial art or something else? :?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:59 am 
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hoshin wrote:
Jim,
while this thread is not about what a martial art is and is not

If the point is raised then I'm obliged to address it...

You seem to be addressing this issue extensively..
hoshin wrote:
i have to say i think your view is very specific so i will change my wording and say that "Asian arts" are more wide range then you give them credit for.

I doubt it but feel free to expound....

Combat arts are combat arts by default. Joe Blow can open a dojo and teach flower arrangement, but that doesn't change what martial art is...

The BASIS for all the Budo arts is WAR! Budo--it is what it is...

hoshin wrote:
and YES 99.99999 % of the 7 million elderly Chinese who do Tai Chi in the morning couldnt give a rats @$$ about self defense.


They are not doing Tai Chi, meaning they are not training in Tai Chi Chuan... They (whomever they are) are simply doing some form someone showed them.. That's a rather large difference from training in an art proper..

hoshin wrote:
i have given my examples already i am not going to go round in circles on this petty thought.


I fail to see what is petty here.. You sound agitated and I fail to see why that should be... We are all engaged in a discussion, if you want out then be my guest sir..

If you have a specific point to make please make it clear. I read only objections to points made, no clear thesis from you.. My only point is that MA are Martial!

You seem content to continue what you term this "petty" topic.. To wit:

hoshin wrote:

now, on the flip side yes maybe it is time to label and break down the general term "martial arts" into smaller more specific catagories.


Like what? For what? What's the point here?

hoshin wrote:
people who have been around awhile know what to expect and what they will get just by the name of the art,

uechi karate,
kyokushinkai karate,
wing chun,
aikido,
tae kwon do,
tai chi,


The name of an art tells us very little about what kind of school and what kind of instruction one will get... The reality is that there are as many differences among schools of a single style as there are among schools of different styles...

hoshin wrote:
all of these arts may or may not be taught for true self defense, personaly i think 99.9 of schools DONT.


Don't in terms of mission or don't in terms of quality?

hoshin wrote:
besides from my experience i belive most students do not really want to pay the heavy price of really learning self defense. they only want some exersise and some social time and really like the illusion of being tuff.
they want the image without the work.


This is why teachers of old had prospective students stand in a horse stance for an afternoon.. If they made it through that then there was a fair chance they would finish what they started... Clearly most folks don't have the moxie to walk the long path of learning whatever the art...

Again, this does not change what the arts are.. It doesn't change the meaning of Budo.. It doesn't change the reality that when folks walk into a dojo for the first time they are there to learn SD.... Everyone is different and will have different thresholds of endurance for learning and training...

What makes a good teacher is many fold but as we all agreed, it seems, that good martial arts instruction starts with a good basis in the art, knowing it well and also knowing how to apply it well and pass that along to students...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:10 am 
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MikeK wrote:
But then is that person really doing a martial art or something else? :?


Right Mike, it becomes something else.... Perhaps the Do thing... In the end it's all up to the folks running the school to keep the focus on whatever they believe in.. If that's foo foo MA or SD oriented training... Good teachers will keep the majority of folks who are driven busy and interested IF they have the material, understanding and skill to do so...

Of course the money thing plays a big role as we know.. When you have to pay the rent well things can change fast for the worse... The Tao of martial rent collection...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
This brings out another possible situation:

Let's suppose you practice a martial art.

You happen to be in the same bar as your sensei (or instructor or whatever), but he hasn't seen you.

Some guy gets into a fight with him. An obviously huge, menacing guy.

The guy beats the **** out of your sensei. Your sensei tried to fight back and lost fair and square.

Would you lose respect for your sensei? Would you quit the class?

What expectations do we place upon our teacher, ourselves?


Back in the old days probably yes, even now possibly it depends on the situation..

In my experience students what to know/see/experience their teacher or even seniors ability to 'apply the art'. When I was teaching I was constantly challenged, although not formally to show I could do it... It's actually very annoying...if understandable.. It can also be painful.. :lol:

In both schools I attended my thirst as young student was quenched, in both cases seeing the ranking student fight... In karate our 'guy' was a good full contact fighter who whooped ass in the Ring and on the floor.. In the other school our 'guy' invited anyone willing, including all challenging visitors onto the floor to test their stuff and he never 'lost'.. I am sure these examples are very important to some students and it makes sense when folks want to know the program and their seniors have tangible combat worthiness...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Everything is a test. The student that walks away from a school because the teacher has lost a fight isn't addressing a basic fact of life and martial arts: we can lose.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:38 pm 
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harlan wrote:
Everything is a test. The student that walks away from a school because the teacher has lost a fight isn't addressing a basic fact of life and martial arts: we can lose.


Well that's overly simplified IMO..

I would walk away if I decided his performance/skill was lacking.. As I said, I had ample opportunity to assess this as a student..

We should not hide from the fact that real skill and the ability to demonstrate that skill is a real part of passing on that skill.. The notion those who can't--teach doesn't work here..

It's on all those students minds, just look at their faces, in the seminar, in the dojo....

"Yeah, but can he really do it?"

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:00 pm 
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Perhaps it is simple. Whether or not someone can kick your teacher's butt doesn't seem relevant. As long as he can do it to you, beat you, seems like there is some learning to be done.

This thread is in the 'women's section'...so bear with a gender specific reply. As women, most of us are pretty aware that direct, physical confrontation may end up with us losing. I don't know why I'd be in a bar with my teacher, but if he got whupped in a fight...would I leave? I might...but not because he lost a barfight...but because he was stupid enough to get into one.

Strategy, survival instincts, martial arts knowledge, physical prowess...there is a lot to learn.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:21 pm 
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harlan wrote:
Perhaps it is simple. Whether or not someone can kick your teacher's butt doesn't seem relevant. As long as he can do it to you, beat you, seems like there is some learning to be done.


Well I think it's simply a performance check..

It's not so much win/lose..

I expect to see a certain level of ability.. I can tell very easily if in my case my teacher could not do the system very well and in this case that means use it to stop an opponent..

Some schools are very focused on performance, where that means martial skill...

harlan wrote:
this thread is in the 'women's section'...so bear with a gender specific reply. As women, most of us are pretty aware that direct, physical confrontation may end up with us losing.


True for anyone. But there has to be a limit... The only way I can think to explain it is in terms of odds..

If you are about skill building then you (or I) expect a very high level of tangible fighting skill in master types... And specific to that system's method.. I'd be shocked if those folks I mentioned 'lost' anywhere.... That doesn't mean it can't happen..

It's tough to explain but I am very optimistic about performance, especially for women.. Most women have enough mass and power to obliterate the typical male so long as they have the skills...

I'd like women to see what they have from a glass half full angle.. Women also have less tension, are looser than men, can be much faster than men and often have better endurance in the heat of battle... I've seen some women MA that looked like a tornado in heat...


harlan wrote:
I don't know why I'd be in a bar with my teacher, but if he igot whupped in a fight...would I leave? I might...but not because he lost a barfight...but because he was stupid enough to get into one.

Strategy, survival instincts, martial arts knowledge, physical prowess...there is a lot to learn.


Okay but this was the premise..

Sometimes things get violent...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:49 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Good point Fred.

This brings out another possible situation:

Let's suppose you practice a martial art.

You happen to be in the same bar as your sensei (or instructor or whatever), but he hasn't seen you.

Some guy gets into a fight with him. An obviously huge, menacing guy.

The guy beats the **** out of your sensei. Your sensei tried to fight back and lost fair and square.

Would you lose respect for your sensei? Would you quit the class?

What expectations do we place upon our teacher, ourselves?


The guy I train with has quite the number of real world notches on his belt, but even he has lost fights or been bettered by someone. It happens. He's told me about being bettered in the ring by several people, (one a woman), and knocked on his butt by one guy who has only fought in a dojo but had one sweet combination. Of course out in the field they'd be toast but a win is still a win even in a dojo or ring, so they get honored for what they did. So no, I wouldn't lose respect for the instructor or stop studying under him.

Here's where I think a good teacher is separated from the average dojo dictator. A good instructor has to be ready to be bettered by his student and that should even be his goal or else he's not giving his all. On the rare occasion I've gotten the better of my instructor and he'll always give a great big "YES!", it means the student is learning. It's also the approach that I now use when training someone, and I've taken a few bumps and breaks but been happy that the other guy "got" what I was showing. I have to contrast that with the instructors who punish those who make a break through and actually do what they're being taught, or worse the instructors that keep the student from making those break throughs.

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