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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:57 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
A good instructor has to be ready to be bettered by his student and that should even be his goal

Not really my experience... The top teacher/student (DaiSiHing) in the Chinatown school had a 17 year head start on me... There is simply no way I could pass him unless you are talking decades of hard work and some luck, but by then old age would make the whole thing irrelevant..

Our goal might be to be as good as he is then in 17 years........

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Jim posted
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Back in the old days probably yes, even now possibly it depends on the situation..

In my experience students what to know/see/experience their teacher or even seniors ability to 'apply the art'. When I was teaching I was constantly challenged, although not formally to show I could do it... It's actually very annoying...if understandable.. It can also be painful..

In both schools I attended my thirst as young student was quenched, in both cases seeing the ranking student fight... In karate our 'guy' was a good full contact fighter who whooped ass in the Ring and on the floor.. In the other school our 'guy' invited anyone willing, including all challenging visitors onto the floor to test their stuff and he never 'lost'.. I am sure these examples are very important to some students and it makes sense when folks want to know the program and their seniors have tangible combat worthiness...


This is very true and these examples belong to the ‘Dojo Challenges’ days of yore we all seemed to experience. And such comments also bring up some good questions, and also some much cherished memories.

There is also a question of ‘perception’ _ to address, at some point_ perception of ‘fighting’…a mistake many people continue to make to this day.


As Jim points out _ we, as the senior teachers, expected ‘Dojo Challenges’ _ the fashion of the day_ and were ready for them mainly because we were all tournament champions _ and loved the opportunities to ‘throw down’ with challengers.

In fact some of us looked forward to them _ we encouraged them because they gave us a chance to remain ‘well practiced’ for the big boys of tournaments.

In Sensei Mattson’s huge, immensely popular, central Boston Dojo, I ran a special ‘open fighting’ class, where I encouraged any and all tournaments fighters we came in contact with in tournaments_ to join my class and engage in sparring matches.

We were also well ‘tuned up’ in anticipation of some idiots off the street, coming up now and then, to take on the teacher to see ‘how good’ he was before he joined up.

They usually ran into a brick wall. We had some ‘interesting’ fighters on board. :D

One low key ‘tough guy’ we had, was Mattson sensei, who was difficult to provoke as he usually talked most of the challengers out of making fools of themselves when personally challenged.

One hilarious story I will relate before moving on:

One night a guy that looked like a boxer, with cauliflower ears, and a pug nose_ came up the steep steps of the Mattson Academy calling out George Mattson to a fight.

George came out of his office to see what the hell was going on, and intercepted the jerk at the top of the stairs, suddenly finding himself under attack.

Now imagine seeing this jerk tumbling down the stairs under a barrage of ‘hits’ by George that sent him crashing through the front entrance door whimpering. We never saw him again. :lol:

There were more similar situations, not counting the ones arising out of ‘world champions’ showing up declaring they were there to teach us how to fight, which also included some misguided Japanese sensei with his own student, who showed up one night telling George he was there to take over his school, because he was a ‘Japanese master’ _ :splat:

Later

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:25 pm 
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JimHawkins wrote:
MikeK wrote:
A good instructor has to be ready to be bettered by his student and that should even be his goal

Not really my experience... The top teacher/student (DaiSiHing) in the Chinatown school had a 17 year head start on me... There is simply no way I could pass him unless you are talking decades of hard work and some luck, but by then old age would make the whole thing irrelevant..

Our goal might be to be as good as he is then in 17 years........


But it is my experience. :lol: I've seen instructors bested by students several times with the student usually getting a beat down or at least a harsh verbal reprimand because they accomplished what was being taught.
I think this is where what is being taught really comes into play. In some training it's in the instructors best interest to have the student reach their potential in the shortest time possible (SD, military SF, sport) and in others it's the long road keeping an instructor/student relationship for as long as possible.

harlan wrote:
Perhaps it is simple. Whether or not someone can kick your teacher's butt doesn't seem relevant. As long as he can do it to you, beat you, seems like there is some learning to be done.


Not really, there are many coaches who train people that far exceed their abilities. Some folks have the knowledge, the ability to teach but may lack, for whatever reason, the physical ability to kick their students ass.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:10 pm 
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i think it only fair to judge your teacher not on his current fighting ablity but on his ablity to make you the best you can be.

in the movies i dont remember Micky jumping in the ring and kicking butt, but he took the unskilled Rocky and made him a champion.

_______________________________________________________________________

if all schools had self defense as their teaching priority, they would have no students.
i would argue that today ( not the 60's or 70's ) ...today most people who gravitate towards martial art schools are not looking for self defense as the top priority. fighters also now ave the MMA option.

why is it that some schools that i know that teach more as an Asian art form and have over 800 students and yet the schools who focus on street combat are empty?

why is it that some uechi seniors comment that if he taught the way he wanted they would have no students at all and probably end up with a law suit?

is combat reality REALLY what people want?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:26 pm 
Is there no middle ground :?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:35 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
But it is my experience. :lol: I've seen instructors bested by students several times with the student usually getting a beat down or at least a harsh verbal reprimand because they accomplished what was being taught.
I think this is where what is being taught really comes into play. In some training it's in the instructors best interest to have the student reach their potential in the shortest time possible (SD, military SF, sport) and in others it's the long road keeping an instructor/student relationship for as long as possible.


I'm sure you're not suggesting that my guy's goal was to hold anyone back...

If you take up tennis lessons with a world-class tennis champion he isn't holding you back because he can still *easily* best you in tennis long after you train with him...

There is a significant difference in skill building time.. And if you have tens of years of time in with diligent training it doesn't make sense to me that a student should be able to pass that work in some tiny fraction of that time (unless he is "the one" of course.) or the material is easily picked up--not the case in my case... We all want students to progress as fast as possible but there are limits if and when there is a large skill gap... I know realistically that most students will never get as good as that guy, no matter how long they train.........

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:45 am 
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JimHawkins wrote:
I'm sure you're not suggesting that my guy's goal was to hold anyone back...


Definitely not suggesting that at all! The long road needs an extended instructor/student relationship because of the detail being transmitted and the passing along of a system rather than just fighting skills. It's a matter of approach. Someone trying to get someone into the ring can't really train him for 17 years before he's ready, nor can someone who needs his soldiers in the field. While short cuts aren't being taken good enough must suffice over perfection.

JimHawkins wrote:
If you take up tennis lessons with a world-class tennis champion he isn't holding you back because he can still *easily* best you in tennis long after you train with him...


Unless of course he's trying to remain top dog in his field and wants to make sure you don't progress. Getting the potential competition to quit early is cheap insurance. :lol:

JimHawkins wrote:
There is a significant difference in skill building time.. And if you have tens of years of time in with diligent training it doesn't make sense to me that a student should be able to pass that work in some tiny fraction of that time

But it does happen, I've seen it. Some may need more diligent practice for a longer period than others, some blow to the head of the class for some reason. Time is just one measure but it's been my experience that it's different for all.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:11 am 
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jorvik wrote:
Is there no middle ground :?


Not sure there is one....

No question in my mind that the vast majority of folks who walk through that dojo door are doing so for SD reasons.. To me it's a no-brainer.. There are a million other kinds of places and activities folks can do for other reasons... Folks choose a MA because of the martial---for SD reasons.. I think most instructors are very much aware of this...........

If the foo foo schools in your town are doing better than the hard core schools it's not hard to know why but it doesn't change a thing... The hard core folks just need to make the program more flexible and palatable for those who aren't born hard core...

Folks go to MA schools for MA---hard to believe... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:10 am 
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This is my question to any one .does any one now think that Martial arts are now getting fewer actual fighters in there classes ?.

What I mean here is not your prior tough guy ,but a ordinary man /woman who become that M.A s formidable fighter .

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:12 pm 
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maxwell ainley wrote:
This is my question to any one .does any one now think that Martial arts are now getting fewer actual fighters in there classes ?.

What I mean here is not your prior tough guy ,but a ordinary man /woman who become that M.A s formidable fighter .


Not at all...

In fact just the opposite.. With the advent of MMA many TMA are re-evaluating their fighting game for the better..

As long as there are TMA there will be TMA fighters... The objective I think is to improve all around...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Thanks Jim , for your reply ,What caused my question was in our areas ,we have been seeing massive drop off's ,nearly all Karate styles are struggling to pay the rent ,kids are keeping the doors open ,once thriving groups with branch dojo have been failing ,and the instructors going back to the head dojo ,Jim things are pretty bad here .

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:55 pm 
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I'd like to post a thought on the discussion opened by Van Canna (thank you) about respect and the offshoot discussion Mike, Jim and Harlan were having on teacher's level of skill and respect.

Jim, I greatly agree that most students should not seek to best thier teacher who has 17-20 years+ of experience behind him. A student of only a few years should not be able to beat him. HOWEVER, to Mike's point, I DO think students can have breakthrough moments where they suddenly get or properly use a technique and get through thier teacher's defenses...sometimes with good or bad consequences.

In those instances, to Harlan's and Mike's point, a good teacher is excited that their student has advanced in that one area and excelled. A poor teacher, will punish that student by "putting them in thier place", especially if the teacher was inadvertantly injured in the incident.

Misunderstandings happen, and (to be fair) a good teacher will also step it up a bit from there to continue to challenge the student...but extremely ratcheting force or turning the student into the favorite uke with a brutal edge...that's just petty revenge and not something a good teacher should be doing.

I could be wrong, but I read this as a breakthrough moment with excitement or punishment by the teacher...not takedown by the student of a master.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Nothing wrong with a breakthrough moments, if we improve we have them.. I was simply relating my experience with one particular person who was and still is way ahead of me.. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:13 pm 
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harlan wrote:
I am fully functional, thank you. :lol:


Like Data?

Glad to hear it!

harlan wrote:
What do you mean, 'time will tell'?

Who me?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Sorry. Refering to your post that 'for women that start for SD time will be a factor'. Could you elaborate?


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