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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:43 pm 
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ok, the source of this thread comes from two currently ongoing threads (open vs closed fists and moving throught the gaps/spaces of your mind)...at the risk of splitting hairs, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the depth of learning in your practice.

What do you think is necessary for mastering a martial art?

Do you think one should have a mental/spiritual depth or at least component to your martial art?

If so, when do you think these concepts should be incorporated into one's training?

And lastly, is it up to the master or the student to frame this approach?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:44 pm 
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Here is part of what started my train of thought:

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Originally posted by maxwell ainley = Shana ,a major reason why we tend not to see things in sanchin is; we rush ,overlook etc .This is really the essense of slow training to curb this problem ,later this attitude helps you create from sanchin .
Slow means you are spending more time to areas of study it does not mean you are just doing slow moves etc, its a way of seeing more from less ,its a attitude that can't be bought .
Its a internal slowing down ,the opposite of aggitated impulsive types ,you learn more .


Thanks Maxwell, this is definately something I will continue to consider in my practice. This sounds like it has a similarity to my (very basic) understanding of Quigong. That the art is as much internal as external, focus and non-focus. Is this simply a concept that can/should be applied to most Japanese and Chinese martial arts?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:48 pm 
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The other source of this thread is a another thread Jorvik started quoting an interview discussing the seen and unseen and ways of learning (too long to copy, so here is the link to the thread: http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=20168)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:44 pm 
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Shana ,

I just like others post on spiritual side of things, Mind Body spirit forum ,but what you may find strange is I never talk about things spiritual in my dojo ,in all honesty to you just never have .

But non the less there is a spiritual side to me .

And I don't force my self on to a student about matters spiritual .

I teach a fighting art that may lead to things spiritual ,or at a deeper level awaken a student from deep sleep ,types of enlightenment actually break into this deep sleep ,obviously lots of students are more aware ,and they arn't in levels of deep sleep .
For a instance you can have a satori from Sanchin practice, now a Satori as factors in common with time ,our attitude to time ,so if I am transmitting anything "always its this attitude to time " thats the underlying element in my dojo ,and out into life.
Now this is not spelled out on the black board, but not to become aware of the atmosphere would indicate one is fast asleep .

So this is really my starting point on awakening .

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:27 pm 
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....which essentially answers my question. It sounds like you teach the mental/spiritual aspect as a fundamental, underlying principle in all you do. That is still teaching it; it's just not overt. And spiritual does not equate to a specific religion, IMHO....nor does faith.

I realize we have a mind, body forum, and I've read several of your posts there. That does not mean that the occasional posts elsewhere won't provide some good food for thought and perhaps bring new people into the discussion.

sometimes much is learned form a new perspective...eh?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:31 pm 
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Yes Shana overt seems right ,plus it would be nice for other input .
If you aquire the spiritual side ,and in my view this is transformed at the moment of satori ,before you have this belief /and feeling etc, at satori its confirmed for you which is two things shock on one hand and you already knew on the other ,in other words it was always there within you ,but you were asleep to it .

This is really what is meant by; one is asleep ,and a reason why I utilised it in my last post ,now please don't get me wrong on this ,"Asleep " up to the moment of satori ,one was asleep to things spiritual in the deeper sense ,which is really satori emerging from within you .

No body really likes to be told that they are asleep ,every one thinks they are awake ,a satori slaps you around the face and points out to you the fact is you were completly asleep ,this why the satori is needed to overturn this belief that one is awake .

So that is the first big hurdel to overcome ,and believe me it is a big un .
So no amount of talk will convince any one that they are asleep ,this is were methods are needed to bring one towards this first big hurdel ,and believe me a massive shock awaits at that specific point .

Electrifying comes to mind ,and mind / body have indeed been at war in a attempt to awaken .

From my point of view Sanchin is perfect for some to do this ,yet not others ,So lets look first at why Sanchin is not working to bring one to this satori point even though practioners have been doing it for donkeys years.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:37 pm 
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I've been told my beginner's opinions don't matter. :oops:

But my two pennies, for what it's worth:

http://nardalee.blogspot.com/2009/05/hard-lessons.html


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:18 pm 
Martial arts are a big subject. We tend to group all these different practices together and call them under a blanket term. Even the term "Kata" can mean many things. So really we need to define for ourselves what "martial art" means to us and then decide how we will approach what we do, what our expected outcome is and how we hope to achieve this....Maybe we should decide this even before we look for a school to practice a "Martial Art"
In my own case I have studied many martial arts and for many years and the reasons for my interest have changed many times...although there has always been a thread running through them ( that I can see but others can't :lol: ).............there are a couple of thoughts that stick with me. In Hagakure its says that the way of the Samurai is " Resolute acceptance of death"...when you have a choice between life and death you must choose death.....crazy perhaps but consider.............those planes on 9/11 or even the Brazillian flight recently :cry: ....if you were on board one of them, what could you do?....You are powerless.......and some day you will be in just the same position as they were in in...powerless..we must learn to accept that a little everyday and maybe oneday if we are called upon to do a very brave act, hopefully we will.
As to our practice............it struck me a long time ago...what if our Sensei no longer taught? what would I do?...and even....... when I get my black belt who will motivate me :?
Happily there is an easy answer ........I will motivate myself and I will teach myself.........then how long will it take to master?............well back to dealing in absolutes :roll: ................so there we have it, Sanchin.......three conflicts :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:44 pm 
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harlan wrote:
I've been told my beginner's opinions don't matter. :oops:


Whoever told you that was both wrong and an arrogant a$$. My apologies that you were so ill treated, and you can point me in the direction of whom I should frap!

Seriously, Harlan, everyone's opinions have some grain of worth and truth to them. and no one is so wise that they can ignore the insights and opnions of others. If that were the case, learning would be finite, which it is not. Also, some of the best teachers I know, say that teaching is where they have learned the most.

So please continue to post your opinions. We won't always agree, but I do value your voice!

harlan wrote:
But my two pennies, for what it's worth:

http://nardalee.blogspot.com/2009/05/hard-lessons.html


Wow, those are two heavy and valuable pennies!

Thank you Harlan for sharing such a personal story, and facing issues that I agree we often only address in tangential ways.


People come to train for many reasons, and we usually train to the surface reasons. We train for self-defense, we train for physical health, we train for combat, we train for fun, etc.

But there is almost always an underlying mental/spiritual/emotional reason as well. Whether it is because she/he is looking for "something", seeking inner peace and wisdom, facing up to fears born of a specific incident, dealing with all the small petty slings of fate and childhood, or simply seeking a way to better understand or challenge her/himself...there is some mental/spiritual/emotional aspect to any training or hobby one undertakes.

Harlan, I think this actually addresses both your and Maxwell's post. Why do so many people only learn the surface lessons of sanchin, and why is satori so rare?

First, I must admit that I have had epiphanies, but I do not think I have reached satori...yet. But I think Harlan's post speaks eloquently to your question, Maxwell, even if she didn't mean to.

Courage.

What little I know of satori and enlightenment is that courage is required. Because it takes courage to step into the unknown, and it takes courage to look inside yourself or face your own personal demons.

Personally, I think learning is pretty one-sided if there is not some deeper context for the learning. I think it is this deeper context that defines the difference between a warrior and a bully. I also think it is this deeper context that defines a dan rank from a master.

But that is my opinion, only.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:37 pm 
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Shana , Beginners opinion matters ,there is no continuation without the beginner ,so yes jump in probe things question etc, lots of things come to light that could go moribund to the teachers ,they help create that finer cut at things ,the same old answers don't always wash .

The slowing down learning does find its source within satori type knowledge.Initially this would appeal to our beginner ,and initially to the person who awakens to a satori, he or she have to go slow ,sort of finding ones feet .both types of beginner have something in common its a starting point for fresh learning ,in both cases a humbleness to learn are self evidant ,but the differance is vast on this humbleness ,one as a grasp of the spiritual which as been apprehended face to face ,so this makes one a totally differant type of beginner from the satori perspective ,this new beginner is vital too ,just two sides of the learning coin .

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:50 am 
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Shana ,just tried to give a ref; point to slow side of training ,a source .

This source for me tallys with who is behind Sanchin in its origins,now to someone who as the satori its a inner element and quite natural ,were as to someone with out the satori and a beginner to boot ,initially there is little choice other than to go slow ,find ones feet , a baby's first learning steps come to mind .

By showing contrasts inner satori attitude ,and some one in general [beginner ] we get a picture of what is natural to both ,the next part woud be were cracks appear in one type ,and no cracks to the other on natural to slow ,so slow is very natural to satori ,no agitation ,no impulse no inner torment etc, as a imposed doctrine of slow is set into motion .

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:14 am 
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So this attitude to slow is a very natural element to satori ,no calming breathing is really needed to bring order to a upset inner disorder that bugs some one .
So like the beginner the new person to Satori would have to naturally go slow just like the baby with those first learning steps ,with this new found inner attitude .

The doctrine of slow finds its source in this inner attitude which is new in one sense yet timeless in an other,this now quite freely indicates the attitude is totally "as one with time " it is not straining at the bit in lots of cases in dealing with inner attitudes and time ,that was a false part of the person ,before satori .

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:47 pm 
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harlan wrote:
I've been told my beginner's opinions don't matter. :oops:


As a beginner you are in a natural and un-distorted state of mind...

You will tend to rely on common sense over dogma..

Unless I misunderstand...

You may ask questions that, because of their common sense can become difficult to answer clearly and readily because you have not yet been brainwashed and assimilated to accept fantasy over reality...

Those who dismiss your opinions are afraid.............

IF you are getting this from your teachers you should seriously reconsider where you place your trust---as in choosing a teacher(s).

Trust your guts and your commonsense unless and until you see incontrovertible evidence to the contrary...

IF it smells like a duck...... Well you get it....

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:23 pm 
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Shana Moore wrote:
What do you think is necessary for mastering a martial art?


Much more time than one is allotted in but one life...

Otherwise there is nothing mystical here. To get good in an art is no different than how one develops skill in any other physical activity: Lots of practice, good coaching and a healthy dose of innate ability doesn't hurt either....

Shana Moore wrote:
Do you think one should have a mental/spiritual depth or at least component to your martial art?


Yes and no..

There are many inner battles that folks must come to terms with.. IMO a good program should help students to move, step by step through whatever struggles they have inside or out... IMO most folks have the biggest issues when asked to take too large a step at one time.. Little by little, baby steps is key to a smooth advancement IMO..

A teacher of martial art can do many things but spiritual adviser is pushing it, especially on the commercial level...

Think boxing coach... Just because it comes from Asia it shouldn't be anymore mystical, magical or more of a spiritual experience than boxing is or training in any other sport, like gymnastics.. Humans are thinking machines and as such developing good physical performance means learning how to focus the mind..

Shana Moore wrote:
And lastly, is it up to the master or the student to frame this approach?


One can be given tips and pointers, you can be guided but the true inner and outer development is a solitary personal struggle and experience IMO.

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Last edited by JimHawkins on Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:23 pm 
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Thank you for the replies. As for the 'opinion' part...that was a comment from what I now know to be just another internet VTG. But, it's comments like that that keep women, and beginners, from participating in forums.


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