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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:37 pm 
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Shana Moore wrote:
Very interesting thoughts on efficiency. So, the trick is finding the balance between efficiency and effectiveness?

Well for me greater efficiency is the path to effectiveness.. If you are very inefficient you may still prevail but without an over whelming edge in attributes it will only be that much tougher to do so if we are less efficient...

Shana Moore wrote:
What I mean is your example of making your wauke smaller works to a point, as long as you effectively block or hit whatever you are seeking to block/hit/etc. I guess that's obvious, eh? :oops:

Nothing too obvious here...

Now I didn't say wauke exactly, I said circle..

Circles can be for totally different kinds of things...

When you talk efficiency it helps to know exactly what kind of action we mean...

A more efficient strike will have more power, have better mechanics, take less time to execute, require less time to target...etc...


A circle could be used to change lines; to redirect, to take a position, to hook and control, to gain contact, to initiate a grab, etc...

Again, it helps to know exactly what one needs to do with the action in question.. Actions as in the above can be transformed with greater efficiency, make the slow person much faster, use less energy and allow one to adapt in real-time..

Efficiency is also really important when looking at how we change from one action/tool to another--the efficiency of change, of all motion is a big part IMO of seeing the higher levels of expression in especially close range arts..

Shana Moore wrote:
But in order to make these things truly effective, you have to train over and over, correct?

Sure and how to train is just as important...

Shana Moore wrote:
I know from practice, testing, and reading (only limited experience) that stress can make your movements naturally smaller, so you want to train to instinctive reactions in this concept, correct?

Almost everything, in terms of actions/movements must be second nature, without conscious evaluation and continuous..

But stress normally hinders accuracy and as far as I know would tend to move things in the direction of larger motions.. As in trying to use or find a key when under stress we falter and suddenly have trouble finding the key hole or we have the key upside down, etc..

Still, I think a reduction in excess motion can go a long way toward getting more efficient..

If you think of a circle block... Is it the circle motion or the strength of the shape that is or should really be doing the work? When intercepting an action remember that motion that initially moves the tool away from what you are intercepting is the opposite of what I'm talking about here in terms of efficiency...

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Last edited by JimHawkins on Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:28 pm 
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Shana,
to reply to you...

from my persective and from what i have learned, the male ego very often gets in the way of making sound judgments.
example,,,, couple wakes in the middle of the night to sounds coming from down stairs, more often then not the guy will grab something and go down to confront and investigate the issue.
not always smart if you have a bat and the intruder has a gun.

this male dominance ego also has a habit of wanting to impose dominance rather then escape.

so my point was that we make assumptions that if we need to defend ourselves that this aggressive dominant emotion will kick in ,,, when in reality often it doesnt.

so if you have your child behind you and you feel aggressive and your emotion is " how dare you touch my child"
then standing your ground works fine.
if your emotions and body want to move then let it move!! dont surpress your natural instinct for movement just because your "style" says different.

i know this is not what others teach, it is a more holistic way of thinking. i feel it works well for women.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:53 pm 
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There is natural (untrained) expression and there is perfection in expression (science).. The whole idea of training is to take what is natural but raw and refine it.. That's what training is all about..

Do what you feel like regardless of what your training says is at once quite natural and also completely arbitrary.. We all seek to be effective right? Well that's what the training is supposed to be moving folks toward, effectiveness.

A style or system's core concepts are not or should not be contrary to what is natural for one who trains in that system or style.. If it is then you have a major disconnect.. New students are the exception...

A style or system is not or should not be a nagging nanny that nags at us for the sake of wagging her tongue. Rather, a system is about better expression and if it isn't not only should we not listen to it in the moment but we shouldn't be training it at all... There is no mysterious dichotomy here we should be using tools and methods that make sense, we should naturally fight, react how we train.. Do you fight the way you train or is there a disconnect?

Or to put it another way: We shouldn't be making actions 'because our style says so...' Rather we should be taking action that is natural for us based on how we are trained---pretty simple way of seeing how training and naturalness go hand in hand.. No, nothing is 100% but that is indeed the direction we should be moving toward as a goal........

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:27 pm 
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"A style or system's core concepts are not or should not be contrary to what is natural for one who trains in that system or style.. If it is then you have a major disconnect.. New students are the exception... "


I don't totally agree with that....I posted about Tetsuzan Kuroda.good read if you get the time and he said that learning to be soft was hard :lol: ( bit of an oxymoron)...but as you get older maybe it is easier to be soft :? .........I have always found it extremely difficult to be soft.
However, just suppose you took only say three techniques and worked on them exclusively, and ignored all else.and this would be difficult because somebody who has studied martial arts intensly would find all sorts of nuances,reasons,tactics.whereas a beginer wouldn't ...........

Quote
"Once again, im not talking about a duel, which is a chessmatch, im talking personal protection. Im not talking about being defensive or running away, im talking about attacking(closing the distance, getting the superior angle, all are offensive)

Well I would suggest that certain stances are good for attack and others for defence........for example IMHO Sanchin stance is attacking because you can punch quickly and equally with both hands....if you are off your opponents "line" ..well even better 8) .......but kiba Dachi you are only side on.so less chance to attack...anyways ,a thought :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:05 am 
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Quote:
.but kiba Dachi you are only side on.so less chance to attack.


Unless of course a bad guy is to the side of you. Economy of motion in action. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:55 am 
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Jorvik.....

Don't see the connection....can you flesh out how that relates to naturalness with one's training?

Mike?
Kibi dachi? You can attack in any direction last time I checked...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:37 pm 
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You sure can Jim, I was just going for something obvious with a some closest weapon to closest target thrown in.

For the last couple of years I've been interested in how people view stances in relation to natural motion and 360 movement. It seems that martial artists often lock into each stance having only one use or direction of movement. I think that stances when taken to extremes can restrict which direction someone can move and how, but if done more naturally they all offer quite a bit of freedom.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:28 pm 
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"Don't see the connection....can you flesh out how that relates to naturalness with one's training? "


Sure can :) .I was thinking of something that Bruce Lee did when I said that.
he argued with his brother that "natural movement" would win over unnatural movement.............his brother disagreed, the argument centered about what you would do if somebody suddenly hit you with something, Bruce said that you would instinctively duck, his brother said that you would respond how you had been trained........so Bruce swung a pair of plastic training nunchakus at his brother.....and his brother ducked 8)

Now, a lot of the stuff I do lately seems to go against that...........so I think that it is important to remember that when there is a conflict you should only do what comes naturaly............I think that one of Funakoshi's caligraphies said " Don't go against nature" 8)

Which is why I rate boxing ( or at least some of it's principles) so highly


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:01 pm 
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very interesting discussion guys. I find it intriguing that all of you (steve, jim, mike, & ray) talk about naturalness of movement. From what I'm reading you are all talking varying viewpoints on the same concept.
steve, I agree that one should follow her/his instincts in a given situation. I don't think any style teaches to fight all situations (only some people feel that way) While women are usually smaller than attacker or protecting children--which will affect their instinct and goal for a given situation--I don't think that always equates to flee. I do agree that women might consider that more often as one of several options and more often than some men.
Mike, Jim & Ray,
I'm unclear if your "naturaleness of movement" refers to novice instincts, trained instincts, or the spaces in between... like building the natural flinch response into your waukes and blocks...perhaps all 3 in different circumstances?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:10 pm 
Well to me it means "what you do naturally"......and what is that? :? ..............how did a stoneage man fight?....why are animals so good at fighting ( or rather killing prey)...........I think that the "bitch slap" is a good start in that direction........forget what it's called :oops: ...........but the mechanics fit in so well with the human body..........if that is "natural" .........then what else is also :?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:45 pm 
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Shana Moore wrote:
Mike, Jim & Ray,
I'm unclear if your "naturaleness of movement" refers to novice instincts, trained instincts, or the spaces in between... like building the natural flinch response into your waukes and blocks...perhaps all 3 in different circumstances?


What Ray said.
To the way I'm thinking if you're moving naturally you wouldn't necessarily have a wauke, you'd have what it teaches but without the actual move. If that makes sense.

In a way trying to build a natural response back into something like a wauke is backwards. You can even do it when teaching someone new to close the distance and attack even if that's something they're not used to doing. IMO it's always better to start with the natural and add to that rather than the other way. Saves time unlearning something only to have to relearn it again.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:10 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
Sure can :) .I was thinking of something that Bruce Lee did when I said that.
he argued with his brother that "natural movement" would win over unnatural movement.....


Agree--my point is the whole objective in training is to make that which is unnatural--the science of the method--a natural part of us...

Goes back to: At first a punch was just a punch, then it was this idealized action, later, it was just a punch again..

Bruce mentioned this often as combining the two in harmony:

Quote:
The ideal is un-natural naturalness, or natural un-naturalness.


Such that we become natural at unnaturalness--then there is no distinction really in expression.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Shana Moore wrote:
I'm unclear if your "naturalness of movement" refers to novice instincts, trained instincts, or the spaces in between... like building the natural flinch response into your waukes and blocks...perhaps all 3 in different circumstances?


Perhaps my last post cleared this up?

Very simply, whatever your training when you start may initially be very unnatural but later should become quite natural..

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:25 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
To the way I'm thinking if you're moving naturally you wouldn't necessarily have a wauke, you'd have what it teaches but without the actual move. If that makes sense.


IMO, depends on what the function or action requires.. The ideal action is most efficient so the tool or action should become more efficient with less waste while excelling at whatever the job of the tool is...

Good form should really start off pretty darn efficient and this combined with special uses is what makes system tools something to be learned and finally a natural part of expression.. In some cases, however, the tool or action may become so efficient that its manifestation appears as only a shadow of the classical action.....

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:06 pm 
Well I hold two opinions at the same time on this :) .........for a good while now I've concentrated on internal Chinese martial arts....and there is a lot there 8) ......but at the same time I really like CQB......the way that I think now is that a fight or assault will start with threats etc ( sometimes called the interview stage)....and sometimes it'll be a really sneaky attack...so I like to have a few big guns that I can inflict a lot of damage with like the bitch slap.....and these moves are very natural and easy to learn.....so I train in two ways at once one very basic and one very clever.
So what I do ( on my own) looks a bit like crazy sloppy Wing-Chun.....but in 10 years time maybe I'll have the skills and confidence to just have really good Wing-Chun :lol: ...........another thing though is environment, I do Escrima and that is designed for a hot country where folks carry Bolos and cane knives...but in my country it's a bit colder, so maybe it won't work over here..Same as BJJA....in the UK if you go down you get a good kickin....which will possibly kill you :roll:


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