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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:31 pm 
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(this was started in a discussion on the conditioning thread, split to open up the discussion on this one topic)

Okay, I've read several assumptions that the majority of fights go to ground....estimates from 85%-95%...and I keep wondering where that figure comes from...I'm still researching, and perhaps I've just not read the right sources...but I want to know if this is researched fact or accepted "wisdom" handed down.

My first find on this subject was an impromptu research study done by Bakari Akil II, Ph.D (Mass Communications professor).

http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/

A few thoughts on his study:
first, he's a BJJ and Judo practictioner, so he may be personally biased (experimenter's bias-where intentional or unintentional expectations can skew data) towards grappling.

Second, his study is based on reviews of YouTube videos, so it has a case of serious sample/volunteer bias (where data can be skewed becuase the selection of participants doesn't represent the full targeted population). In this case, it doesn't fully represent all street fighting scenarios; it only represents those fight situations that are posted on youtube. Also, because items posted on Youtube are voluntarily posted, it really only represents the types of fights likely to get posted on YouTube because they are "interesting enough", won't be banned, make a specific point for the posted, etc.

That said, he found aprox 42% of fights where both fighters hit the ground and 72% where at least one fighter ended up on the ground in a review of 300 fights. He also comes to some interesting conclusions. Worth a read, but take with a grain of salt.

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 Post subject: Gracie quote
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:45 pm 
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Is this the source of the statistical claim?

Quote:
The Gracies would further claim that their's was the most important and practical system to learn, because based on their experience fighting on the streets of Rio de Janeiro as well as in numerous challenge matches, "ninety percent of all fights go to the ground.


http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/martial_arts/114767

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:50 pm 
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through a Yahoo link, I found this, and it's interesting...as the yahoo poster notes (curious George, C.Ac)
Quote:
The American Society of Law Enforcement Training provides statistical data along with a 1991 study of LAPD incident reports involving a physical confrontations[...]
The LAPD study does not show that “90% of fights go to the ground.” Instead, the LAPD study shows that 95% of altercations took on one of five familiar patterns (with which any street cop will be intimately familiar). It also shows that of that 95%, 62% ended up with both the officer and the suspect grappling on the ground.


http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:58 pm 
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some interesting bits from that last link:

Quote:
Journal of Non-lethal Combatives, Jan 2007
Going to the Ground: Lessons from Law Enforcement
By Chris Leblanc
Copyright © Chris Leblanc 2007. All rights reserved.


Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) go “hands on” in both armed and unarmed physical confrontations more often than perhaps any other armed professionals. Within the self-defense and martial arts communities, this naturally has led to a great deal of interest in the experiences of officers in physical encounters. And no other information coming from the law enforcement community has received as much attention as an elusive set of statistics that purportedly show that 90% (or more) of physical altercations “go to the ground.”
The responsibility for the popularizing of this statistic is most often laid at the feet of the famous Gracie family, proponents of the art of Brazilian jujitsu, and dismissed as a shameless attempt at marketing themselves and their family fighting system which, not coincidentally, emphasizes fighting on the ground.

Unfortunately, I have yet to see a single source within the martial arts community -- affiliated with the Gracies or otherwise -- that accurately cites the actual study, or that does not either accept the statistics (or repudiate them) almost wholesale.



Quote:
The statistics provided here are quoted directly from the ASLET (American Society of Law Enforcement Training) pamphlet for their July 1997 Use of Force Training Seminar. [...]In 1991, Sergeant Dossey, an exercise physiologist with the LAPD, completed a comparative study of use of force incidents reported by LAPD for the year 1988. Sergeant Dossey looked at all 5,617 use of force incident narratives written by officers in 1988, and devised a method for codifying the information contained and analyzing it for what they identified as dominant altercation patterns. The study was replicated in 1992 by LAPD’s Training Review committee.


Quote:
During 1988, there were 316,525 arrests made by LAPD.

5,617 (1.7%) of these arrests required the completion of a use of force report.

2,031 (0.6%) altercations developed from these arrests. “Of the 5,617 reports examined, only 2,031 incidents contained a sufficient level of aggressive resistance by the suspect toward the officer to qualify as an altercation.”

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:58 pm 
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Quote:
Five scenario patterns accounted for 95% of the altercations: “[...]As for the five patterns, they were:

Subject pulls away from an officer’s attempt to control the subject’s arm. “33.7% Officer grabbed the subject by the arm and the subject pulled his arm away; the most frequent second act was the officer applying a joint lock (32%) and the most frequent final subduing act was the officer taking the subject down to the ground (46%)”

Subject attempts to punch or kick the officer. “25.4% Subject ran at the officer and swung punches and kicks; the most frequent second act was the officer evading the subject and striking him with the baton (26%; a close second was taking the subject to the ground 22%) and the most frequent final subduing act was taking the subject to the ground (35%).”

Subject refuses to assume a searching position. “19.3% Subject refused to assume a searching position as verbally ordered by the officer; the most frequent second act was the officer applying a joint lock (35.5%) and the most frequent final subduing act was taking the subject to the ground (36.5%).”

Subject flees and officer pursues. “10.5% Subject ran from the officer, officer chased the subject; the most frequent second act was the officer taking the subject to the ground (40%) and the most frequent final subduing act was also taking the subject to the ground (39.5%).”

Subject takes a combative posture, but does not attempt to strike the officer. “6.8% Subject assumed a fighting, martial arts, or boxing stance but did not attack the officer; the most frequent second act was the officer striking the subject with the baton (38%) and this was also the most frequent final act (41%).”



The figures on what happened once the police officers were on the ground are also quite interesting:
Quote:
Once the officer was down:

The subject continued to assault the officer once the officer was down (64%)

The subject fled (31%)

The subject waited for the officer to get back up to continue the fight (5%)

Of the ground fights, suspects generally continued with grappling and pinning techniques (77%), or used punches, kicks, and strikes (66%). However, in 21% of the cases, the subjects attempted to disarm the officer, with 5% being successful. As a side note, the FBI states that of 594 law enforcement officers killed between 1992 and 2001, 46 were killed with their own weapon.

On the ground, the officers tended to use weapons other than firearms:

Pepper spray (OC) was used 29% of the time

Impact weapons (sticks, batons, flashlights, handcuffs, etc.) were used 26% of the time

Hands, feet, holds, etc., were used 24% of the time

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:08 am 
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Shana Moore wrote:
How many fights REALLY go to ground?

Three
:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:20 am 
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It's a totally subjective question dependent on the people and conditions.. I think the idea that most fights go to the ground is based on the fact that many a ritualized fight between two typical street nobodies will close to zero distance, where zero distance means being intertwined on the ground... Lots of reasons for this but IMO it's often simply because of the method or lack thereof of the two combatants..

More relevant question might be: How often does it go to the ground when one combatant wants it to?

Answer:

Most of the time..

Arts that emphasize balance manipulation/control/stealing will have an edge in staying up..but...

Bottom line: The ground exists as an environmental variable.. If you find yourself on the ground what are your options, how experienced are you? If the answer is not experienced at all then it makes sense to get some... Otherwise one is vulnerable and severely limited when faced with a common real-world scenario--earth in the face..

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:06 pm 
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'...Earth in the face...' yeah, never pleasant - especially when it's covered with broken glass.

Jim just reminded me of something I vaguely remember reading in Rory's book -- something about it being easier to get cuffs on someone you are attempting to restrain by forcing them facedown vs. it being easier to end someone in battle by forcing them down face up so one has frontal access to throat/eyes etc.

I agree with Jim - how many fights end up on the ground? The answer is going to be influenced by who is fighting and what their training/intentions are.

Good idea to work both.

Interesting thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:34 pm 
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JimHawkins wrote:
More relevant question might be: How often does it go to the ground when one combatant wants it to?

Answer:

Most of the time..
[...]Bottom line: The ground exists as an environmental variable.. If you find yourself on the ground what are your options, how experienced are you? If the answer is not experienced at all then it makes sense to get some... Otherwise one is vulnerable and severely limited when faced with a common real-world scenario--earth in the face..


That's supported by the LAPD report as well...most of the time the police end up on the ground because the assailant pushes or pulls them down. I found the stats on what the subject does once the policeman is down and what techniques are used interesting.

This is clearly an area that I, personally, need to work on, but I think I simply need to start with better ukemi....one step at a time, methinks...but it's good to know this has a place in my future training.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:54 pm 
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Quote:
That's supported by the LAPD report as well...most of the time the police end up on the ground because the assailant pushes or pulls them down. I found the stats on what the subject does once the policeman is down and what techniques are used interesting.


But why is the cop being dragged to the ground? What is the cop trying to do, what range is he in, how'd he get into the situation?

BTW, Here's a fight going to the ground.

http://www.vidly.net/video-cops-quick-t ... vegas.html

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:32 pm 
Maybe it's a geographical question, but in my area fights don't go to the ground, generally....reason is we love football .so guy goes to the ground and it's natural to kick him, and if you've ever seen a good striker take a penalty shot, then you know that the ground is not the place to be.......I am surprised that BJJ do this as they are football a nation as well...........

now look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8096423.stm

lad goes to the ground and gets stabbed, now these are guys standing over him doing the stabbing, not wrestling with him..why would they :? ...as they say with computers GIGO.garbage in, garbage out :P .....no greater example of this than TMA :oops:

Don't go to the ground...your dead :cry:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:54 pm 
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Jorvik,
What you speak of being soccer as we call it? Of course here football begins with a tackle, and I think lots of fights begin that way here as well. Sports conditioning can influence someones attack for sure.
I think of one woman I knew who was attacked by 7 teens with chains, sticks, knives etc... She was stabbed 7 times, non critically. She told me she knew if she fell she would never get back up again. Just a primal instinct. With your typical sportstyle training (which I did 7 years) would you think she would fair much better? Staying up saved her life. Most of the kids went unpunished, the police only got the ringleader.

F.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:34 pm 
Hi Fred,
I think that part of the problem is that folks think in a very general way..........with Judo BJJ etc when you go to the ground you have a tremendous advantage if you are skilled at that range, you only have to look at the gracies..however when there are multiple opponents then you are at a very severe disadvantage.
That's not to knock BJJ or Judo..but IMHO what you see too often in MMA is folks going into a grapple then down on a mat..or in some Systema stuff rolling around while folks try to kick you :oops: Great for Sport or one on one.but stupid in a street fight, I wonder how many folks have ever practised their Ukemi Waza on concrete :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:33 am 
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Well the best Judo guys don't have to do ukemi because they don't get thrown. Or so one Olympian I hear used to say. :lol:

F.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:02 am 
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It's worth mentioning one thing with the LEO statistics. They need to finish the altercation with an arrest. And before the arrest, they need to cuff the bad guy. Often when there is an altercation, you want the perp on his belly on the ground before putting the cuffs on.

Also, a LEO can't beat the ^%$# out of someone for kicks (no pun intended). That excessive use of force will result in a loss of job and maybe some jail time.

Any other fight involving two folks have no such constraints. And when it's more than two, then the "to the ground" propensity is a very different thing. I wouldn't want to be on the ground facing more than one, or at least not for very long.

- Bill


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