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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:39 am 
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jorvik wrote:
Maybe it's a geographical question, but in my area fights don't go to the ground, generally....reason is we love football .so guy goes to the ground and it's natural to kick him, and if you've ever seen a good striker take a penalty shot, then you know that the ground is not the place to be.......I am surprised that BJJ do this as they are football a nation as well...........

now look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8096423.stm

lad goes to the ground and gets stabbed, now these are guys standing over him doing the stabbing, not wrestling with him..why would they :? ...as they say with computers GIGO.garbage in, garbage out :P .....no greater example of this than TMA :oops:

Don't go to the ground...your dead :cry:


Yes when playing with weapons in particular, going to the ground *****, but it ***** worse if you don't know what to do from there. You'll be surprised at how much easier it is to get up or (Gasp) not get taken down when you add the ground as a big dimentions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:45 am 
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jorvik wrote:
Maybe it's a geographical question, but in my area fights don't go to the ground, generally....reason is we love football .so guy goes to the ground and it's natural to kick him, and if you've ever seen a good striker take a penalty shot, then you know that the ground is not the place to be.......I am surprised that BJJ do this as they are football a nation as well...........

now look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8096423.stm

lad goes to the ground and gets stabbed, now these are guys standing over him doing the stabbing, not wrestling with him..why would they :? ...as they say with computers GIGO.garbage in, garbage out :P .....no greater example of this than TMA :oops:

Don't go to the ground...your dead :cry:


Yes when playing with weapons in particular, going to the ground *****, but it ***** worse if you don't know what to do from there. You'll be surprised at how much easier it is to get up or (Gasp) not get taken down when you add the ground as a big dimentions. This is more true with judo/wrestling, but in BJJ as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:50 am 
It's not just about that Adam.it's not so much about developing skills and attributes it's a lot more about knowing what can really happen. If you start doing grappling from an attack and get used to it then that is what you will do, almost instinctively :cry:.you will think that it is a comfort zone, like these guys in Systema who roll around the floor.that is what they will expect to do. Folks used to talk about the "Tick" karate syndrome where you get so used to playing tag with an opponent that it translates into what you feel real self defence skils are, and you get into a fight and tick somebody once and they don't go down :cry: ...and thne you start blaming the karate, and not without reason...It's the same here, only the new flavour of the month is MMA and folks start believing that a streetfight will be like an MMA match.and it won't :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:46 am 
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Cool, I get to mention Bruce, who I know Adam worships! (joke).. :lol:

I wonder if by using his teaching as an example we can all agree...hmmmm...

He wasn't the only one, but Bruce advocated simply looking at these things in terms of range, or areas of study.. One may choose to major in Mathematics, but no respected University will allow you to just study Mathematics and graduate.. You'll have to cover other areas of study, science; language; physics, etc, in order to be a well rounded and well informed graduate..

Likewise, one can major in a particular range or ranges, say striking, but one will not be well rounded without some experience--and by some we mean a healthy dose of the other ranges of study. Each art is complete in a very real sense, the way math is a complete area of study. Of course this doesn't mean that it covers all the other areas of study however, it can't because arts specialize..

The conventional ranges of study, which may have some overlap:

1. Kicking
2. Striking
3. Trapping
4. Grappling

And I'll add in a fifth "range": Weapons, which will itself have sub ranges or areas of study...

One may wish to consider what the most useful ranges are given one's society and culture. This will will have a major influence on which ranges we are most likely to find ourselves in when and if a situation arises..

Very simply: One cannot train to get back up without having been downed in the first place; one cannot train not to go down without having been taken down in the process of trying to stay up, etc...

But, regardless of what we choose to specialize in, the well rounded martial artist will have trained a good deal in all ranges of combat. This certainly does not preclude one from focusing on their chosen major or majors. But broadening one's area of experience can only serve to help us better adapt and understand the big picture of human combat. And in the end isn't that why most folks study the arts in the first place...?

###

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:50 pm 
Hi Jim
I think that range is important in general martial arts, but street fighting is different..and it is only my experience in the legal system that really forms my opinion about streetfighting, look at the racist attack on Van's forum.....the guy goes to the ground and is swarmed, also the range really wasn't an issue in the sense that you mean it, generally IMHO and limited experience and looking at that clip, the punching -boxing range seems more prevelant also what you seldom see in martial arts clubs, but what you see a lot of in streetfighting is headbutts and kicking folks on the ground , frankly a lot of martial arts aren't really suited to real fighting ( and I'm talking right across the board here )...just look at the clip, what stance would you get into?.how would you work in the back-spin kicks, what about the "Flinch Responce"............What I see is a black swan event for most martial artists, they just haven't trained for this eventuality.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:02 pm 
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Mmmmm..

Well I can't really see what you mean here.. The terms or areas of study referred to are very generic, *range* is omnipresent, meaning, you are always in some range....

You are always going to use some *tool* which will entail a *method* of using it.. These things represent actions..... Now you may not have a chance, you could just get killed, but if you do act, you will be acting in some range with some tool and with some method right?

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:17 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
just look at the clip, what stance would you get into?.


I assume you're kidding here..?

Either way, my answer is:

Why this one, of course (on the right)...

Image

:lol:

What in the world is a stance????? :?: :roll: :lol: :oops: 8O :?

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:41 pm 
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jorvik wrote:

what you see a lot of in streetfighting is headbutts and kicking folks on the ground , frankly a lot of martial arts aren't really suited to real fighting

Are you trying to say that headbutts and kicking folks on the ground aren't a part of martial arts? Because if you are, then you need to get out of your gymnasium.

FWIW, I show these hidden gems in kata all the time. Then I show folks how they leave themselves open for such kinds of attacks when/if they do certain dumb things. Most good (experienced) martial artist teachers do that. And many martial arts styles have these basics covered. It's simply a matter of execution on the part of the teacher who conveys the style to students.

Several decades ago in a dan test at Bob Bethoney's dojo, one of my students did a (pulled) head butt in his test sparring match. Bobby was officiating, and said "No head butts!" No problem... we can adjust to whatever the rules are. However... next year before the dan test sparring, Bobby announced that head butts would be allowed.

;)
jorvik wrote:

just look at the clip, what stance would you get into?

Without even looking at the clip, I can tell you that most any way you stand (or position yourself on your knees or supine) is a stance. The key isn't so much the particular stance you are in, but how well you handle your center, your mobility, your weapons, and your defenses while in it. That - and not specific stances - is the essence of good martial arts.

Whether or not you succeed is another story. That's a function of many factors. If the odds are stacked against you, well the odds are stacked against you. But that doesn't mean you do the deer-in-the-headlamps thing and give up. It's your prerogative to maximize the odds in your favor - no matter how bad the situation is.
jorvik wrote:

.how would you work in the back-spin kicks

In your TKD sparring classes where they belong.

However the fundamental element in this fancy high kick - a leg hooking motion w/o spin - is a fantastic technique that everyone should have in their arsenal. It works very well below the waist. It also is a simple tool used by grapplers while on the ground. And that requires no special distance or warm-up.
jorvik wrote:

what about the "Flinch Responce"

What about it? It's there, Ray, whether you want to recognize it or not. It doesn't have to be a confounding factor. On the contrary, most good martial styles have flinch responses embedded in their movements.

Your lower brain responses will want to act before your training kicks in. The key to training is knowing what those lower brain responses are in myriad situations, and then learning how to weave your training responses in to what your body naturally will do before you can consciously evaluate a situation. And if that doesn't make sense to you right away, then sleep on it and ask around.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:47 pm 
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"Without even looking at the clip"

do me a favour Bill.....................look at the clip :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:26 pm 
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"Without even looking at the clip" comment was made not because I didn't, but because the clip didn't matter.

We can't have solutions to all impossible scenarios in life. But we can improve our odds. That's the point. And solutions generally aren't technique specific so much as they are about common sense, emotional intelligence, tactics, and a touch of wisdom.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:10 pm 
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Ray.....

Look at Lam...

What kind of 'stance' do we see him use?

He's a high level guy... He'll easily make folks fly away..

But as a high level guy his "stance" is there even when you can't see it.... :idea: ;)

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:58 pm 
Jim ,Bill I think that you are both missing my point....when you have raw unadulterated violence it's very hard to make a "style" work .there is an old Chinese saying that the best Kung-Fu looks like Rubbish, just fighting.now that is partly my point, the other point that I'm trying to make is don't train for what you think may happen, train for what you know , or have a very good idea of what will happen.....in a street attack we don't know ,exactly what will happen, but we can hazard a very good idea.
look at this site

http://www.targetfocustraining.com/blog/

I used to be in the priviledged position of seeing stuff like this every day...but now it's pretty much available to anyone on the net.and it's good to get an idea of what will happen........There are some styles that just will not work against this type of stuff........and I don't mean Uechi, Uechi can.with a few tweaks here and there be very effective against this ,as can Wing-Chun.but wrestling :roll: ....all I'm saying is that you are not likely to be attacked like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXzoHHESTdY

maybe the peasants in a field attacked you like this , but they don't do this in my city :roll: ......so unless you look at it as some kinda cool dance move ,don't do it :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Ray

The second video I saw a long time ago. You can go on my forum and see the commentary that follows. There's nothing enlightening there. I have no idea why you posted it. It has nothing to do with anything in this conversation.

The first video is a random act of violence against a college kid who was totally in condition white. He was in a reclined position as the three approached. He was in a reclined position as the attacker came within range - slightly from behind. He never bothered to move himself out of this totally unaware state; the body language says it all. The attacker winds WAY up before hitting him squarely upside the head/neck. The kid never knew what hit him. A semi-aware person with no training could have prevented the solid connect.

The second kid is never touched. He executed simple avoidance maneuvers. Not rocket science. It was THAT easy to avoid this assault.

This has absolutely nothing to do with your thesis, Ray. It's just a video of a college kid in condition white getting assaulted and robbed. Moral of the story?
  • Don't walk around in condition white. Be constantly aware of your surroundings.
  • If your posture is shouting "I am clueless!" then you have increased your odds of being a victim. Even the hardened follow the path of least resistance. If you carry yourself with confidence and show awareness, chances are the bully will find an easier target.
  • The rules of "the street" (whatever that is...) are like the rules of Nature. A predator isn't going to kill himself trying to kill the quickest animal in the pack for a meal. They go for the easiest kill. So the prey needs only to prevent him/herself from being the weakest, stupidest, or most vulnerable in the pack. In this example, one kid gets it and the other walks home unscathed.

I could just as easily have chosen a random fight video on YouTube and said that it proved my point. And my example probably would have been no less relevant to the conversation.
jorvik wrote:

when you have raw unadulterated violence it's very hard to make a "style" work

Every "style" I've trained in - and I've done a few - has awareness taught at the junior level. And it's a take-home message from virtually every self-defense seminar. You're looking to damn martial arts because of techniques. But virtually all "styles" are taught in the context of simple principles. And any/every style benefits from simple tactics, proper mindset, and general intelligence.

Mushin, zanshin... it's all there. "Shin" means mind. It does you no good if it isn't in gear.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:36 am 
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jorvik wrote:

when you have raw unadulterated violence it's very hard to make a "style" work


This is from Wikipedia. Even the commoner can look this word up and "get" that martial arts has an answer to Ray's posted random act of violence.

Quote:
Zanshin (Japanese: 残心) is a term used in the Japanese martial arts. It refers to a state of awareness – of relaxed alertness. The literal translation of zanshin is "remaining mind".

***

In karate, zanshin is the state of total awareness. It means being aware of one's surroundings and enemies, and also being prepared to react.

Works for me!

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:28 pm 
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I think what Ray is saying is that when the rubber meets the road the actual fight looks little like the style taught in the dojo or kwoon or gym, unless of course the style being taught is geared to actual fighting.

I'm doing a bit of sidetracking here...
Quote:
Every "style" I've trained in - and I've done a few - has awareness taught at the junior level. And it's a take-home message from virtually every self-defense seminar.
...
In karate, zanshin is the state of total awareness. It means being aware of one's surroundings and enemies, and also being prepared to react.


Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. From Wikipedia.

You have different levels of awareness, and so far in my experience I've yet to see people learning to operate at high levels of awareness in a dojo. Not saying it's not happening somewhere, but I've just never seen it.

Also, few are actually really aware to the level that I think zanshin implies from a combat perspective, and it's a bitch to learn unless you've really got the idea of mushin down. A really a challenging, and fun, study in today's lifestyles.

Sidetracking done.

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