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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:52 pm 
Yeah
What Mike said :)

Part of your awareness should be having a good idea of what type of situation you may be placed in.which is one of the reasons I don't like groundfighting and also the reason I posted the clip of "Master" :roll: Shirai
if a guy attacks me from 30 feet away with his hands on his hips I guess I'll know what to do :lol: .Against a realistic attack I have a few options of my own


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:45 pm 
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Ray,
I have a question, and I am NOT trying to "pile on". I'm really curious.

Unless I'm missing your point (if so, please clarify), you speak about how martial arts is useless in a real fight. Yet, you train in martial arts and have for some time. If MA is really useless in a real fight, then why train in it?

I can see you are a fan of boxing, but that is, in it's essence, a martial art as well. Martial arts are a systemized method of training for armed and unarmed combat; it doesn't have to be Oriental in nature.

I think, with the exception of coming from differeing vantage points, we can all agree that martial arts provides a mindset and some basic skills for any type of combat.
How MUCH it prepares you and how easily a "technique" can translate into real combat is clearly where the disagreement lies.

So we can discuss and debate that issue, but let's stop with the generalized and inflammatory statements that "martial arts"/"MA style or technique A/B/..Z" is/are "useless". Any valid point you may have is completely lost when you default to that mode.

FWIW, I have noticed a change in my viewpoint and reaction on a daily basis since I started MA. I am more alert/aware...and I am less likely to back down in the face of fear, discomfort, what-have-you, but I'm also more likely to calculate odds and such in any encounter I might face.

Honestly, at this point in my life and where I live, that is mainly in the workplace, dojo, or personal relationships...but it is a noticeable change in my awareness and interactions, so based on this small experience...I can only say that MA training DOES have a benefit in conflict...be they small or large...in the simple way you react and interact with threats.

But, Ray, I would like to hear your response on this, as I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from here. THanks!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:48 pm 
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mk...just read mike and ray's post, which probably answer a lot of what I was asking...

and...I DO get that my little awareness I spoke of is not the same as a HIGH level awareness that an experienced combat veteran would have.

But it is more than your avarge woman/man on the street typically has..and that's the first step in learning and improving that skill.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:22 pm 
Shana
I have done a lot of different martial arts over the years. One moment sticks in my mind, an Epiphany if you like, at the time I was doing Jiu-Jitsu and I suddenly realised that here were folks with black belts down to their knees telling me how to fight.yet I had had more fights than they had.........and to be honest. I don't think some of them had even had a fight.yet they felt that they could tell me what to do.and the crazy thing was I was paying them :lol: ......
Now by chance I happened into the job that I do now, it wasn't intended, and I get to see police statements and I talk to witnesses,so this in itself changed my viewpoint.
What I do now is what suits me, what I know will work for me...I'm very selective and very critical. I know my weaknesses.One is I do not have any real experiences with violence.such as somebody like Rory might have.....but at the same time I have access to information that some of your "So called experts don't get to see, so I am very critical of them, to me they are just like the jiu-jitsu black belts that I trained with all those years ago :roll: ...........that's not to say that they are all bad...really it is about being selective.
You mention boxing............and when I talk about it I confuse people, some folks think that I box, or that I don't box :roll: ..truth is I've had two boxing coaches, both from Escrima clubs that I trained in, and when I did Goju my Goju teacher taught us boxing handwork because his dad was a boxing promoter.so it has influenced me a lot.mainly in terms of fitness and moving naturally.but I don't box, I will throw jabs and crosse .but I never hook...I use elbows instead or bitch slaps and I tend to use a fast flurry of open hand strikes to the neck area.which isn't boxing either....I suppose it is really phillipino style boxing if you want to put a label on it.I am also into nerve centres and locking and breaking ( I have a blackbelt in Aikido and Escrima has loads of locks and takedowns in it ) This is one of the reasons I like to be very precise about " Styles".....I do Wing chun now, but if I taught the stuff that I use for myself I wouldn't dream of a calling it Wing Chun.it's my stuff :lol: .when I'm qualified I may start teaching Wing-Chun and that is what I would teach.nothing else.none of this MY Wing-Chun crappola.........so really I think the thing to be is realistic and selective
train for what you want.a lot of folks don't do this.and yet think they do

The other thing that I do notice is that there are some people with strange
Senisibilities and weak egos.. ( I don't mean you Shana) and if I say something negative about an aspect of martial arts, maybe groundwork......You get the typical " Wah Wah Wah .stop knocking Uechi" argument......surprisingly I have a had a few Uechika pm me to say that they knew I wasn't knocking Uechi 8)
So .if somebody says to me that Wing-Chun is crappola I try to look at it from their viewpoint.is there a weakness there that I can strengthen? or are they just being argumentative..see at the end of the day whatever martial art you do.it is supposed to be for self protection so the people you are buying this knowledge off should be giving you loads of information..it's not good enough to give you a kata and let you go and figure out what it means :oops: ...very often you will see people who are poorly taught inventing their own stuff and trying to fit it into the style they study maybe because they don't truly understand what they are doing......hope that explains a little where I'm coming from :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:37 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
I think that you are both missing my point....when you have raw unadulterated violence i


Well, you've made a half dozen comments on different topics along the way here.. I can only respond to what you write....

"Unadulterated violence" is a nebulous reference.... It can mean almost anything.. And *anything* certainly does not rule out the possibility for the need of grappling skills--raw violence or not.. Really that simple, as it applies to this thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:08 pm 
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I guess to some extent this reminds me of taking physics or organic chemistry.

In both those subjects, you have books that need to be read. You maybe have lectures to go to. But you don't really learn either of those subjects without first reading the material, and then working lots and lots of problems. Then there is doing experiments. Lots of them. Only with the subsequent steps does the mind assimilate the material.

Been there, done that.

Same goes for any "style" of martial arts. Thinking along traditional lines (with styles other than say hapkido), you have forms. And then you have partner work. You don't really get a feeling for and assimilate the forms until you do the partner work.

And more still... On the random act of violence that Ray posted, I talk about the details of stances in a style (even well-executed "natural" stances) and what that body language projects to others. I talk about eye contact in a style (glare in the eyes, with fast hands...). I talk about flinch responses embedded within style postures and movements. I talk about facing vs. turning away from someone who means you harm. I talk about lines of force, the chase instinct, human inhibitions to violence, and how all that relates to the stances and movements that I teach in a style. And I don't just tell people; I first ask them why they think we do certain things. I'm trying to get ownership in the ideas so they start feeling and doing - to effect.

You haven't taken Organic Chemistry (and you don't know it) until you've worked many problems, done some labs, ask questions of the instructor, etc. And you haven't done a "style" of martial art until you bring the concepts into the arena of violence and of self-defense.

And I mean more than the "duel" paradigm that most people are fixated on. We spend time doing "barroom brawl" in my school so people learn how to victimize (as a pack) and alternatively how not to be victimized. We talk about things like the force continuum - from posture to verbal to hand-to-hand to weapon to dealing with pack assaults.

I don't get into the "booga booga" stuff of scaring people. Everyone has their pedagogical style I suppose. That's just not me. And I also don't endorse humiliating people into thinking they don't know poo... but I do so better listen to me. I believe in building people to be independent thinkers and discoverers. I give them permission to make mistakes (or better... to evolve) as they learn. I believe in creating a martial community where all contribute and I'm a mere facilitator. I believe learning never ends.

All those things are reasons why I sometimes challenge people's statements and thinking. I don't have all the answers; when I do, I'll be sure to let you know. :lol: But sometimes knowing all the right answers isn't the thing. It's knowing all the right questions so that the path is clear.

Making a style "work" against (name your martial expression)? That's what it's all about. In my opinion you aren't "doing" the style unless on a regular basis you present it in any number of martial* contexts.

- Bill

* unadulterated violence, the street, a "real" attack, knife, gun, a gang, opponent of doom, combat, etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:40 pm 
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"hope that explains a little where I'm coming from "
Yes, thank you..that clears up my confusion and brings up some interesting points. I'm reading a duality of jolly irreverence (taking only what works for you and scoffing at the technical masters) and deep respect (none of my own wing chun crappola..Rory..etc). It is a bit schizo & contradictory at times, but works for you...and that..as you correctly state...is the important thing.
Thank you.

Bill, I think you hit the nail on the head whwn you talk about challenging conceptions and working past the technique to the fundamentals underlying it and...there' that thought again..what works for you. If I am misconstruing, please correct...but Ilm reading learn the fundamentals through constant practice & partner work and in the process you will learn what works for you in a given situation..but you can't reach Z without going through all the spaces in between..is that a fair assessment?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:37 am 
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On the subject of making kung fu work I'll say this:

It's good kung-fu that makes you work.. We don't do the kung fu and try to make it work, the kung fu must do us..

What this means is that good training is about building attributes, and there are all kinds of attributes...

When it comes time to express those attributes they will either come out and be relevant or not, it all depends on how and what attributes were cultivated in training..

Real kung-fu is not sloppy, that's sloppy kung-fu.. The more real skill the less sloppy will be the expression... The three jerks who attacked that guy are lucky he was relatively unskilled. Had they picked on the wrong guy either with real H2H skills or perhaps a weapon on his person, or both, they would have been toast.

Again, all ranges of combat are valid areas of study with some being more relevant depending on one's culture and societal norms...

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:05 am 
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Shana Moore wrote:

Bill, I think you hit the nail on the head whwn you talk about challenging conceptions and working past the technique to the fundamentals underlying it and...there' that thought again..what works for you. If I am misconstruing, please correct...but Ilm reading learn the fundamentals through constant practice & partner work and in the process you will learn what works for you in a given situation..but you can't reach Z without going through all the spaces in between..is that a fair assessment?

That's getting there, Shana.

I think outsiders view traditional martial arts (of many kinds) as the fixed kata and prearranged drills. That is "the fight" in their eyes, and we must fit the real world violence to our choreography. But that couldn't be further from the truth.

The forms and the partner work are opportunities to work on the concepts taught in "the style." Yes, you practice what works for you. But it's a bit more than that. It's a matter of internalizing the concepts in the karate choreography. You've seen me tear stuff apart and put it back together again. The reason I do that is to show people that the actual construction of kata and prearranged exercises isn't sacred. They're just like tools in the toolbox to be used while studying the world of violence. The sooner people get past anything being sacred and start putting some of the pieces and parts to work on the floor, the sooner the learning BEGINS.

Yes, it's fun to do a good kata from beginning to end. But as I have read, Uechi Kanbun rarely did whole kata when he taught. Instead he drilled the basics contained in the form. Doing the forms as a means to an end is like reading a reference book and expecting to learn about a field. It doesn't work that way. You use the reference material to study your martial world.

To Ray's credit... I was actually glad he brought up that random act of violence against the clueless college student. It could be a topic of discussion in one of my future classes. I love doing stuff like that. Find something that really happened, and tear it apart. Why did certain things happen? What in MY STYLE addresses the situation? As with the college student, it's some of the most basic lessons we teach: posture, awareness, and even understanding one's limitations.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:22 am 
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MikeK wrote:

I think what Ray is saying is that when the rubber meets the road the actual fight looks little like the style taught in the dojo or kwoon or gym, unless of course the style being taught is geared to actual fighting.

Mike... I couldn't imagine the material I work with NOT being geared to actual fighting. It's all there.

Whether or not someone can see "actual fighting" in the material isn't a matter of the material. Missing it is the fault of the student who can't see it, and the teachers who can't convey it.

It's like this, Mike.

E= MC^2

That explains nuclear power. But someone who hasn't spent the time learning physics is going to look at that equation and say it doesn't tell them anything. Yes, that's a stupid, simple, extreme example. But it gets the point across.
MikeK wrote:

Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. From Wikipedia.

You have different levels of awareness, and so far in my experience I've yet to see people learning to operate at high levels of awareness in a dojo. Not saying it's not happening somewhere, but I've just never seen it.

I don't know... Maybe it's because I've been doing this stuff since '72 and teaching it since '78. I just don't think zanshin is that complicated.

Like pornography... I know it when I see it. :lol: ;)

It's something that a teacher draws out of his/her students. I use any/every opportunity I can in class to develop it. An example... Once again we get to those fixed kumite exercises. It isn't the routines per se, but what you do with them. When I have a brown belt teaching it to a new student, I'm on the side getting all over them when they can't see that their student is stepping with the wrong feet, is striking a foot away from them, etc., etc. I expect them to see more and more and more in the partner they are working with. And I give them a hard time when they don't. I keep my expectations high.

And I don't let people get away with dropping hands during a partner routine, looking at the floor, etc. If *I* see that in someone, I bop them. And I tell them to thank me when I do. ;)

The freeform, multiple partner routines have a way of helping people build awareness - especially if you teach people to victimize rather than to fight "fair." The more you give people the experience of fighting in a den of wolves, the more comfortable they become with the wolves - and even BEING a wolf.

Ever read de Becker's The Gift of Fear? Golman's Emotional Intelligence? IMO, reading and studying this material is part of working on your real world zanshin. It's yet another opportunity to develop this sense.

Loquacious = off. 8)

- Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:12 am 
Quote
"Yes, thank you..that clears up my confusion and brings up some interesting points. I'm reading a duality of jolly irreverence (taking only what works for you and scoffing at the technical masters) and deep respect (none of my own wing chun crappola..Rory..etc). It is a bit schizo & contradictory at times, but works for you...and that..as you correctly state...is the important thing.
Thank you. "


Well it must be rembered that this is my opinion only.based on my experiences....also it only tells part of the story. I'm 54 now and have done martial arts all my life :) .now most folks my age have their own clubs and high ranks in their association.but I am now a beginner at Wing-Chun :lol: :lol: .how many folks do you think would walk the same path as me.
Also the internet is a very hard medium to express yourself on.and everybody has some contradictions in their personality, we are mostly unaware of our own but with others they seem glaringly obvious, culture and geography plays a part as well :wink:

The only way that you can really know somebody as a martial artist is to train with them. There are lots of things that you don't get to see over a keyboard


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:40 pm 
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Ray, please understand that I was not criticizing you, and the keyboard is not a perfect means of communication. I found the contradictions interesting, and yes, we all have them!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:22 pm 
Shana
I never took your comments that way.I was just clarifying. It is very hard to communicate on a forum. Very often folks see phantom insults when none are intended or one makes a point which is totally overlooked....and yet an irrelevant aside is seized upon as something meaningful :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:38 pm 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
MikeK wrote:

I think what Ray is saying is that when the rubber meets the road the actual fight looks little like the style taught in the dojo or kwoon or gym, unless of course the style being taught is geared to actual fighting.

Mike... I couldn't imagine the material I work with NOT being geared to actual fighting. It's all there.

Whether or not someone can see "actual fighting" in the material isn't a matter of the material. Missing it is the fault of the student who can't see it, and the teachers who can't convey it.

It's like this, Mike.

E= MC^2

That explains nuclear power. But someone who hasn't spent the time learning physics is going to look at that equation and say it doesn't tell them anything. Yes, that's a stupid, simple, extreme example. But it gets the point across.
MikeK wrote:

Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. From Wikipedia.

You have different levels of awareness, and so far in my experience I've yet to see people learning to operate at high levels of awareness in a dojo. Not saying it's not happening somewhere, but I've just never seen it.

I don't know... Maybe it's because I've been doing this stuff since '72 and teaching it since '78. I just don't think zanshin is that complicated.

Like pornography... I know it when I see it. :lol: ;)

It's something that a teacher draws out of his/her students. I use any/every opportunity I can in class to develop it. An example... Once again we get to those fixed kumite exercises. It isn't the routines per se, but what you do with them. When I have a brown belt teaching it to a new student, I'm on the side getting all over them when they can't see that their student is stepping with the wrong feet, is striking a foot away from them, etc., etc. I expect them to see more and more and more in the partner they are working with. And I give them a hard time when they don't. I keep my expectations high.

And I don't let people get away with dropping hands during a partner routine, looking at the floor, etc. If *I* see that in someone, I bop them. And I tell them to thank me when I do. ;)

The freeform, multiple partner routines have a way of helping people build awareness - especially if you teach people to victimize rather than to fight "fair." The more you give people the experience of fighting in a den of wolves, the more comfortable they become with the wolves - and even BEING a wolf.

Ever read de Becker's The Gift of Fear? Golman's Emotional Intelligence? IMO, reading and studying this material is part of working on your real world zanshin. It's yet another opportunity to develop this sense.

Loquacious = off. 8)

- Bill


You've missed both of my points.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:44 pm 
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I thought he caught a good piece of it..


MikeK wrote:
I think what Ray is saying is that when the rubber meets the road the actual fight looks little like the style taught in the dojo or kwoon or gym, unless of course the style being taught is geared to actual fighting.


I think this is true, but then there was clearly a disconnect when the 'gearing' is off..

MikeK wrote:
I'm doing a bit of sidetracking here...
Quote:
Every "style" I've trained in - and I've done a few - has awareness taught at the junior level. And it's a take-home message from virtually every self-defense seminar.





The term "awareness" to me is a bit nebulous...

There are all kinds of awareness, and sub-levels..

It might help when addressing this stuff if we can be as specific as possible about which attribute(s) we mean..

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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