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I was reading up on a post elsewhere that spoke about the importance of distance and timing in your training and fighting.

In your opinion/experience:
Do you have specific drills you use to improve these skills?

Are they directly addressed in any specific way in your training?

Is this just a natural progression of training?

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Shana

Okay...perhaps I'm just missing the obvious here

For distance practice, I currently do work with the bag or a nice sturdy tree (veeeerrrry slowly and lightly) as part of conditioning as well as a way to develop a sense of distance for various techniques. I'm surprised at how much closer I need to be than I would think for some things like kicks.

Obviously, if you aren't in the right spot, your blows, kicks, blocks, what have you will not connect with the most effectiveness or power. In a real fight, that would be...bad. In sparring, etc. that can lead to injuries or simply embarrassement (both of which you will get over).

Also, partner work is another way to develop distancing, and that is helpful in that it lets you work with people who have differing heights, builds, reach, etc.

But what else can be done to work on this? Are there specific partner drills that any of you do to emphasize or work on distance, either directly or indirectly? Are there drills or bunkai in Uechi or other systems you train in that might help with this very important skill?

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Shana

When it comes to timing...other than lots of practice with a partner, I'm not sure what drills would specifically address this. My concern is that pre-arranged bunkai can fall into a set pattern and rhythm, so you build muscle memory in good and possibly bad ways. You "know" that your opponent is going to do X strike next....

So does this really help build your knowledge and skill in timing blows and combinations in reaction to unknown stimuli?

or does it only make you better at doing bunkai?

What can you do to build that muscle memory in a positive way, without building in those expectations and habits as well?

What else can you do - - or already do - - in your own classes (both as teachers and participants) to work on timing and reaction?

Again, remember this forum welcomes the input of beginners and karateka of all levels....you can always offer your opinion as a "this is what we do in class" or "I'm trying this" or the like....this is an open conversation to get ideas out and get the advise and suggestions of our more experienced members as well...don't be shy!

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Shana

Well, in Chun the core drill is ChiSao... ChiSao is the platform we use to train 90% of all attributes: speed, power, timing, structural energy, positioning of all tools and body, distancing, closing, conservation of energy, sensitivity, kinesthetic awareness, as well as an array of system concepts--with emphasis on feeling (specific) over seeing (general).... The focus is in close range--the gray area most folks are completely unfamiliar with. Although the drill starting with full blown rolling is what is normally thought of as ChiSao any and all sticking work is also considered ChiSao..

The idea was to create one drill platform that covers as many elements as possible in order to make the most use of training time and energy... The drill can be broken down into very small parts, compound small parts to isolate particular elements or you can put it all back together into a natural and alive expression of all elements... It's also lots of fun!

The nature and appearance of the drill can and will change depending on who is doing it and how.. Many forms are valid so long as core system concepts are intact. Very often not all system concepts are intact, even among respected practitioners.. This is due to variation in personal expression, different understandings, time in training and personal experiences...

Some examples of ChiSao:

Bruce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq5hRpc6aZg

Lam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F38SJyHKH94

Beginners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=715PAhwbVj8

Dan Inosanto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcLZHpB2Pj8

Ting's Style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-jl20WacUc

'Impolite' ChiSao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4_BMJlukBI

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

Thank you Jim...I've started going through these clips and good stuff here to review!

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Shana

Shana,
I have to say one of the best drills for developing timing and distance is progressive sparring. Nothing like two moving bodies to let you know if you've got it or not.

The sparring is progressive and focused on developing those two attributes rather than beating the snot out of each other. A few guidelines need to be set in regards to what constitutes a hit as you don't want to get into slap fighting.

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I was dreaming of the past...

Slow motion with complete execution of all techniques.

Slow motion fighting will show:

where your timing is off
when you've made a bad choice or lost confidence in your technique(because you'll speed up)
when you've lost your balance
when your brain vapor locks because it doesn't know what to do
if you're always backing up, always moving to one side or another
if you're crossing your legs to move without knowing it
if you're anticipating instead of dealing with what enters your space
etc.

Slow for new practitioners is slower than for experienced practitioners unless the experienced practitioners are trying to rewire their brains and bodies. Then slow is slow for all (and it is slower than you might think.)

-d

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Shana,

This is one of my favorite subjects because of my tournament experience and studies in defensive concepts. I have covered these in great detail over the years on my forum.

As a start I would recommend your reading the chapter from Siddle’s ‘Sharpening the warrior’s edge’ _ “Survival reaction time” _

Keep in mind that timing and distancing, defined correctly, are essentially

1. reaction time
2. movement time
3. response time


Basically any drill where one person does something and the other reacts is a timing drill that involves all the above components.

In tournament fighting and self defense encounters_ timing and distance are the ability to recognize the right moment and act upon it at all ranges, bridging the distance with explosive power or take downs.

Timing drills can be broken down into lengthening the opponent's reaction time, shortening your own reaction time, lengthening the opponent's movement time and shortening your own movement time.

You must combine these three components with impact training for the best results.

The most important drill is the one that shortens your reaction time for pre-emption or for ‘beating the opponent to the punch’ _ once you sense intent and motion.

When you combine ‘impact’ with this drill_ you will find that the distancing takes care of itself.

The very best way to drill to shorten your reaction time is what boxers and kick boxers use _ i.e., focus mitts _ as they can be used to develop punching and/or kicking tools.

Your partner flashes different lines of motion while standing in one place, moving at you and backing up. You hit as quickly as possible as you sense motion, direction and distance to target.

You can work these in single hits or simple combinations (2-3 hits).

Joey Pomfret’s boys were practicing this drill the other night when Maloney, Bridget and I visited his dojo, and they were scary with accuracy, power and connecting ‘between heart beats’ _

Another drill we practice at the dojo is the time proven ‘punch catch’ … hold your hands one foot apart and have your partner try to jab in between without being touched by your clapping hands….and reverse position.

When it comes to ‘movement time’ …you want to practice striking your partner with different strikes as he moves forward (stop-hit), backward (explosive footwork practice), and side-to-side.

These can be done with 'glove drills' or with equipment…

we like having the partner hold a punching bag and perform these forward, side and back stepping…so you can nail the bag with punches, open hands, elbow strikes from the kata/ Hojo undo…and kicks.

Another excellent drill is to spar with your partner at all ranges and have him feign attacks/strikes on you.

This helps you learn refine reaction response timing and distance and quick explosive moves from the flinch.

Then do the same ‘feigning drill’ at close range where the partner feigns one shot then hits you with another, such as feigning a punch then kicking you.

You can also train the ‘ducking drill’ that Maloney excels at…your training partner throws a punch you duck it and then respond with a kick or punch. This is best done with the partner wearing some shielding.

The goal is to land the strike before his punching arm has time to get back to ‘reload’ _

In tournament fighting and defensive action…interception and striking are interwoven, not separate.

Art Rabesa’s book also has a chapter on distancing, ways to close the gap, and ‘reading’ _

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Van

I'm not trying to knock the slow-mo thing...

Just want to mention that I think folks need to be careful not to *fudge* techniques or movements when doing slo-mo. In other words: If one is not working in real-time then there is the possibility of taking advantage of the time distortion or extra time to use motions or actions that are not as efficient as might be needed for real-time.

Extra motion; problem recognition; actions or anything else that might use a very small amount of extra time can be your undoing in real combat. These very small changes in time to identify and execute may not be noticeable at all in anything but real-time execution..

Also variations in speed, slow, slower, a little faster, a little slower again, etc, may cause things to 'work' . Once you go to real-time it may no longer apply or work the same way so be sure to verify in real-time..

Position, timing, economy and awareness can beat superior physical speed, strength and power.. This should be the goal of good training IMO..

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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I think it's also important to recognize what senses and conditions are being worked on in various drills.

Long range non connected drills will enhance long range or outside range visual sensitivity, targeting, distancing, etc.. This targets visual senses and most often are limited to single entry with a couple of actions and stoppage in between...

Close range connected drills allows one to train visual as well as much faster tactile sensitivity in these areas, and more importantly: how to adapt to change, force and resistance when range closes and you have lots of contact and continuity..

I think it's very important to experience, all ranges, including inside close range energy interaction, where, like the flow of the river change and continuity are the only constants..

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

I think that you must clearly define what your goals are here, what are you training for? sport karate? or streetfighting.and although there is some slight crossover generally they are very different.
For sport I would train with hook and jab pads and use combinations that make people walk into your next technique.A couple of examples are if you throw a left jab and the guy moves back he will walk into a left roundhouse kick, if he stays where he is he will be in line for a right cross. If you throw a hooking elbow strike to the jaw and he moves back then he will be in line for a spinning elbow strike off your back elbow ..........the overall stratagy I have for this type of encounter is to circle your opponent throwing jabs ......the jabs won't knock him down but they may make him blink.and he won't see your next movement in the circle and then you can fire all your heavy guns at him
In a street encounter, you are trying to get the guy to pause,be confused or look away so that you can get the first strike in
A good method is to ask him a question..Now understand you don't want an answer, you just want to tie his brain up long enough to hit him..when you can see the wheels in his brain start to turn then is the time to strike....I would use simple powerful strikes like a bitchslap or a headbutt

Vann,
Thank you! There is a lot of good material to work with here, and I have added the recommended reading to my reading wish list.

Mike, Jim, and Dana,
If I'm reading all of your posts correctly, they may actually be complimentary. I can see where slow work would be useful for the beginner, to develop technique and "put it all together". Then, progressively ramp up the drill speed and movements as the practitioners become more experieneced and capable, which would lead to more "real time" experience.

I know I learn best in doing both speeds, as the actual slow motion shows you were you are off balance and shaky, but the real time shows you where things don't "really" work like you think they will.

Ray,
I will use some of the terminology above to state my goals a bit more clearly. I like Vann's definition of "recognize the right moment and act upon it". I find great psychological and physical benefit from doing reptitive drills and kata, but they don't teach you interactive timing and distancing. I've learned a lot in working with the heavy bag or wavemaster for distancing (wow...you need to be a lot closer than you'd think..at least for me), but timing is something where it's best to have someone to interact with...someone that will do the unexpected.

There is a great deal of talk here about street fighting, and I believe that is a reality we should all be aware of; however, it is not a huge part of my current reality and environment. So, my main goal is to be capable to protect myself if needed. Secondary is to develop a warrior mentality and body.

That help?

Thank you all for some great things to try and work with!

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Shana

Quote
"There is a great deal of talk here about street fighting, and I believe that is a reality we should all be aware of; however, it is not a huge part of my current reality and environment. So, my main goal is to be capable to protect myself if needed. Secondary is to develop a warrior mentality and body. "

to me the terms self defence and streetfighting are interchangeable...you have to have certain "Tools" and be able to use them, and also recognize what the likely threat is going to be and where it is going to come from ............so IMHO certain things are out for self defence, such as high kicks, fancy throws etc........and certain things need to be trained. For example why spend hours trying to make a weak punch stronger when you can use an elbow

Careful there...

Are these things really different?

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

\

hmmmm...that's a good question Jim!

I guess it all depends on how you define a warrior mentality. But certainly, that awareness of your surroundings, that willingness to attack all out when required, and that ability to step back and remove yourself as the first option...and a sound body that won't fail you when needed...are all required in protecting yourself...so as far as that definition..yep...they're pretty much the same.

But if you look at the warrior mentality as a mental and physical discipline...hmmm.....well, then I guess it's still kinda the same.


I love it when someone makes me THINK.

I think I was trying to say that my current environment didn't require me to be in self defense mode all the time, but that's not entirely accurate. I certainly don't require the same level of heightened security that a military person or a LEO would require, but that doesn't mean I can or should walk around blithely ignorant to my surroundings. Most domestic violence is perpetrated, I believe, by someone known to the assaulted person.

So I keep that need for self protection as a primary, if unlikely, goal, with the mental and physical discipline as the secondary and underlying truth...but dang if you just didn't show that my separation of concepts may be a self delusion....must think about this some more. Thanks!

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Shana

Ray,
You've often stated one should train to the most effective techniques, but I also beleive one should train to have as many tools in one's toolbox, so to speak, as possible. As you never know when your favourite technique is going to fail or not be available due to your or your attacker's position, ground, physical status, etc.

That said..no matter what technique you use, you still need to work on timing and distance to properly deliver ANY technique. Even your noted fav the B.S....er...b**ch slap...won't do a lick of good if you are too far or too close to make it effective. The same problem if you deliver it at the inappropriate or ineffective time.

So back to the OP...what do you do to work on distance and timing?

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Shana