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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:08 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
Not sure if the idea most of us have is "warrior-mindset" as few of us are really warriors going out of our way to wage war on someone.

I think for most self defense a survival mindset is needed and for training a fighting mindset.


I think we are talking the same thing Mike, as i'm really talking about a personal code and a personal mindset one can and should develop as part of thier martial arts training.

see my response to Ray, above. I'm not saying we are warriors. I'm trying to discuss the emotional and psychological mindset and code one can develop and if we should use "ancient wisdoms" as a guide in the development of such...if it's a personal thing....and what are the pros/cons of such...I'm not sure if that clears it up any...hope so.

can you clarify what you define as a survival mindset and fighting mindset, as they seem to be two different things as you state it above?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:30 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
but there is one thing that I think a lot about, the old samurai saying that
" The way of the Samurai is resolute acceptance of death"..when you have a choice between life and death then you must choose death


I can't see the clip you posted, so perhaps I am missing your point...but my understanding of the above saying is that it's not a matter of choosing life over death...but when you accept that you are already dead in a conflict...your options change and how you react in the conflict does as well. Now, I have not read a lot of the teachings or way of the samurai..so all I know is only from reading other's opinions...so I will leave this to those who have done more historical readings than I on this subject.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:34 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Harlan's link is another 'kick in the ass' :lol:

Here is something really good that helps understand and clear the fog of the MAist's mind. :wink:

http://www.lwcbooks.com/books/warriorsonliving.html


I think Harlan's link is a great point of what we do NOT want to be speaking about when we talk about warrior's spirit...no kitchy controlling logos here, please!

on the book...you keep my reading list growing Van...um..thanks??!?!?! :lol:

from the link posted:
Quote:
Warriors On Living With Courage, Discipline and Honor Written and edited by Loren W. Christensen

In recent years "warrior" has become a buzzword. Most often it’s used properly, though sometimes its use is a stretch of the definition. To seek out the true meaning of warrior and warriorhood, Loren W. Christensen - retired cop, war veteran, high-ranking martial artist and prolific author - went to the source, to those who live it.

The writers who contributed to this work are some of the finest warrior authors, warrior trainers and warrior scholars today. They have been there and done that. Many have fought on the edge of death’s yawning orifice, survived, and now teach others to do the same. Some are still in the trenches.

Here are just a few of the 37 warrior writers who tell you what warriorhood is all about.

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman — retired Special Forces, warrior scholar, lecturer, writer.
Massad Ayoob — prolific law enforcement writer, lecturer and instructor.
Gavin de Becker — expert on predicting violence, author of The Gift of Fear.
Stephen Hayes — ninja master, Black Belt Hall of Fame recipient, lecturer, author and bodyguard to the Dalai Lama of Tibet.
Tony Blauer — martial arts teacher, author and creator of the S.P.E.A.R. SYSTEM
Hoch Hochheim — veteran policeman, soldier, lecturer and publisher of Close Quarter Combat Magazine.
Dr. Alexis Artwohl — police psychologist, lecturer, and author of Deadly Force Encounters.
Michael Janich — renowned knife fighting expert and prolific author.
and many other soldiers (American and Vietnamese), SWAT officers, kickboxers, and other experts in such fields as workplace violence, theology and school safety.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:40 pm 
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that was from 2004, and this is the 2009 follow up:

Warriors: More on Living with Courage, Discipline, and Honor by Loren W. Christensen (Paperback - Sep 1, 2009)

I found on Amazon, but I bet the original link also has it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:12 pm 
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"I can't see the clip you posted, so perhaps I am missing your point...but my understanding of the above saying is that it's not a matter of choosing life over death...but when you accept that you are already dead in a conflict...your options change and how you react in the conflict does as well. Now, I have not read a lot of the teachings or way of the samurai..so all I know is only from reading other's opinions...so I will leave this to those who have done more historical readings than I on this subject"Shana
You will find that in the traditional martial arts of China and Japan there is a common thread running through them.......and that thread is Buddhism.............in China it was called "Chan Buddhism" and it was taught in the Shaolin temple.....when it spread to Japan it was called Zen and in Korea Son
at some point the Samurai adopted Zen not because of any profound religious ideal .but simply because it kept them calm in conflicts and that is not to say that these types of Buddhism were better than any others.they were almost certainly influenced by the cultures they where from.............................now having said that nothing is ever black or white
many attrocities have been committed by the Chinese and Japanese armies at one time or another :roll:

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"In recent years "warrior" has become a buzzword. Most often it’s used properly, though sometimes its use is a stretch of the definition. To seek out the true meaning of warrior and warriorhood, Loren W. Christensen - retired cop, war veteran, high-ranking martial artist and prolific author - went to the source, to those who live it.

The writers who contributed to this work are some of the finest warrior authors, warrior trainers and warrior scholars today. They have been there and done that. Many have fought on the edge of death’s yawning orifice, survived, and now teach others to do the same. Some are still in the trenches. "

I won't be nasty and say which ones I think shouldn't be on this list, but there are a few..rather like opinions on " Experts" our opinions on " Warriors " can be very varied :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:11 pm 
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The word warrior always makes me chuckle....

But then again, there 'warriors' and 'worriers' :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:15 pm 
I guess that you should worry.if your martial arts aren't up to speed :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:19 pm 
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I think it is more like a martial artist having to worry about a 12 year old tough kid shooting his ass to the stars :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:58 pm 
Yeah 12 year olds.how do you defend against them :oops: ....they can get really nasty :P ..........couple of bottles of soda in them ,and you could be fighting for your life :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:54 am 
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I think it's interesting the responses I've gotten on this topic in a couple of different venues. Some that I have read, and these do not mean I agree with all of them, btw:

There is the traditional, idealized image of "warrior".

There is an abusive, misused, and controlling version of "be a warrior/man up/pain is the path to greatness".

There is the honor shrouded warrior of popular culture (which, depending on your culture ranges from military to athletes).

There is the concept that we assume too much in calling ourselves warriors, just because we train in MA (a point I agree with, btw).

There is the belief that anyone who faces death (from violence to illness to abuse) is a warrior.

There is the belief that everyone can have warrior spirit (or a personal code or ethos, if you will), but that does not make them a warrior.

There is the belief that to talk of ordinary folk having a warrior mind is complete bull$#!+ and we can only talk of combat or fighting mentality.

There is the belief that we can understand some of the warrior mind and spirit, but will not fully understand until tested.

There is the belief that training hard and learning to no longer fear and be an empty vessel makes one a warrior.

And so many more combinations and alternatives.

It's been quite educating to see how folks react to this question.

While I, personally, do not think MAist can claim to be warriors simply because we train in a traditional based art or style, I do not think we can ignore the concept of warrior mind and/or spirit and do true justice to what we are supposedly seeking and learning.

Does this mean I believe we become warriors the more time we spend and the more "purely" we train? HECK no!

It means that I believe we should each cultivate an awareness and attitude that benefits us as we train and as we come into conflict (big and small, from serious violent confrontation to standing up for yourself in a disagreement). This awareness and attitude covers everything from simply showing up day in and day out and training even when you don't feel like it...which could translate to fighting even when you are simply too tired/hurt/scared to continue.....to covering that state of mushin were you are calm and focused on the end goal (and...to an extreme...willing to face death if need be).

I do think it is worthwhile to look into, if you are interested, the history of the warrior...as I have seen so many on these boards discuss. But that may not be for all, and I'm coming to beleive that is not as necessary as a self examination of your goals, beliefs, and will...so that you know, personally, what your definition of warrior is...and where you fit on that continuum.

We should not be afraid of the concept of warrior just as we should not puff out our chest and call ourselves warriors.

But, as karateka...it is a concept I believe we should all explore...and make our own....in whatever way fits into our lives and goals.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:27 am 
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Here is a real warrior :wink: Image

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 Post subject: Real warriors
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:48 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrZbUS0MaY4

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 Post subject: Warriors salute
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:06 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdphPtVZ ... re=related

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:34 pm 
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Warrior spirit to me means: Setting aside one's fear...

Pithy no? ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:19 pm 
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thank you gentlemen.
Van, I've never seen that movie, but I think I'll have to add it to my list (too many list, I know!).

Jim, pithy or not...it works.

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