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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:42 pm 
Zulu was a great film 8) ....buuuut as to warriors it can get confusing. You have to look at various areas.historical, Geographical and sociological, and you can get to the situation where you have conflicting pieces of information from different sources and you respect both :oops:

look at this clip Ray Dionaldo .....and I really love his stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUYtrscV ... re=related

in Escrima or FMA you have a " live" hand.this is the hand that you use to check or punch your opponent, you can trap with it and do all sorts of things

now look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQhrOGz9cFU

I suppose as in the Film Zulu..superior technology beats fighting spirit..................although Cold steel make an assagi and Butterfly swords as well 8)

You ain't seen trouble........but it's coming 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kED67KwPbww


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 Post subject: Setting aside Fear ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:56 pm 
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:roll: Lets hope not ........unless for training purposes we are doing some form of " limitation sparring drill ".
Fear is part of the "Autonomic Response System " and should not be put aside..Control fear....not !! Try to control your digestive system with will power..you cant The fact of the matter is " ##### happens " and it happens automatically. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Setting aside Fear ?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:31 pm 
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robb buckland wrote:
Fear is part of the "Autonomic Response System " and should not be put aside..Control fear....not !! Try to control your digestive system with will power..you cant The fact of the matter is " ##### happens " and it happens automatically. :D [/b]


So I can't set aside my fear and take action in spite of it?

Horse hockey sir..

It's a matter of growth and a core attribute required for engagement.. To engage despite one's fear of doing so...

For centuries warriors have been taught to follow orders and march into battle in spite of their fear... This is what I mean by setting it aside.. It doesn't mean the fear goes away--it means not allowing it to interfere with the need to act.

Perhaps asking for clarification would be appropriate before laughing at my post..

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 Post subject: Horse hockey......
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:02 pm 
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[b 8O Hmmmm I love regular hockey so I imagine hockey on horseback would be a twist .....
Why should I want to get rid of something that is]designed to save my life? Something that Mother Nature instilled in us ..something that is amazing in its ability to keep us alive .....

If you have a reliable effective solution then [i]fear is an asset . You know what to do fear just makes you do it faster
On the other hand if you dont know what to do ...or dont trust what you know ..then you will freeze in terror. You do this because you have no clear goal or way to get there. 8) [/b]

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:15 pm 
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I can be more effective if I am not afraid...

And this is not a cookie cutter thing IMO it's a personal experience...

Sure fear can be channeled into action...and I agree at some level that is what's happening... Some may get angry and use that..

I however prefer to view it as setting aside my fear and focusing on what I need to do instead..

As a new student I was afraid of engaging.. I spent energy and time worrying about it.. Later I learned to change my focus.. To me this is setting the fear aside..

We have a saying: If you are afraid of getting hit, you will get hit..

The point is to focus on the job at hand... Like pilots are trained, to stay calm and cool no matter the seriousness of the emergency.

In adrenal stress training as with real life--the more often one is exposed to threatening situations the less is the fear response.. The body tends to shake off the fear and focus more on taking action.. This is the high road response I want and prefer...

As an adult who has experienced all kinds of scary people and situations my fear has further subsided and I find it easier to set aside.. I recognize it when it is present but I ignore it and focus on my task..

Sorry if you don't like my way of seeing things, but it is just that, my way...

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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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 Post subject: My way...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:51 pm 
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"Sorry if you don't like my way of seeing things, but it is just that, my way..."

Hey, you have an opinion and you arent afraid to voice it thats admirable ........doesnt matter if I agree or not ....!!! :wink:

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Last edited by robb buckland on Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Shana-
I wrote a reply the other night and the connection went down. I'll try again.

People seem to really want labels. They want a way to describe themselves. To make themselves seem more important, maybe. Or to identify with something that they admire.

There are some things that you find out about yourself in conflict. We know this, maybe instinctively, maybe from stories we have heard since childhood. Those things, that self knowledge, can seem pretty cool.

Warriors make big problems go away in a messy fashion. That's what they do. There's nothing inherently noble about it But we have heard stories from the time we were babies- the Knights of the Round Table, the samurai, John Wayne. If you can convince a young man that there is something noble about going to war to kill or be killed it is easier- and any society that doesn't have such young men will be taken or destroyed by a society that does.

The stories led to myths, and the human monkey wants a label, an identity that makes them feel brave and effective. One of the big myths is that the cool insights- whether you will act under stress, what your instincts are when things seem hopeless, and the incredibly clear ordering of priorities that close contact with death sometimes give came from the training. They don't. They come from experience, often from the specific experience when training failed.

Why the label? Why a label tied to the idea of war?

Why isn't it good enough to be called- "someone who will do the right thing to the limits of their ability"?

Rory
The first draft was much cleaner.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:24 pm 
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"Why isn't it good enough to be called- "someone who will do the right thing to the limits of their ability"?



Because the "Right Thing" for you isn't the right thing for your enemy..I'm sure there are loads of kids in Iraq and Afghanistan who think it is the right thing to kill an American or an Englishman..............and going to war to fight for the lies told to us about WMD by tony blair and bush is not the right thing.it is the dumb thing


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:04 pm 
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Rory...I think you stated a very good point! My flip answer is that this title is a bit long :wink: To seriously address your point, I think it's that the modern human likes to put people in a category, so they are a "known" factor, instead of a diverse and changeable being. Not a good thing, in my opinion.

I agree with most of what you said, but I also believe that it is good to have goals and things you aspire to. Whether I ever have the opportunity to live up to the ideal of a warrior (I realize, more and more, that this is a prettied up ideal of what is actually a violent and sometimes nasty reality), I think the ideals associated traditionally with a warrior are worthy of pursuit. Just to name a few of these ideals from my personal ethos: honor, calm in the face of calamity/conflict, and ruthless protection of the innocent.

I actually do not seek to be labeled as a warrior; although, I'm sure many do. However, I do think there is something to be gained in seeking some of that spirit and incorporating it into how I live and pursue my life.

So in the end, "someone who will do the right thing to the limits of their ability" is a title I would gladly wear; eventhough, I am not seeking any labels and rather dislike them in general.

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Last edited by Shana Moore on Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:11 pm 
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Jim and Robb,
In the end, from an outside perspective, it looks like both of you are saying the same thing, just one step apart.

It seems Jim is saying to learn to "set aside" his fear and not let it hinder him, and perhaps to focus the energy generated by that fear into positive action. I do not think Jim is saying he does not fear anything or to ignore it altogether, but to not let that fear cloud your judgement. In other words, don't let fear be your enemy or your hinderance.

It seems Robb is saying that you should channel that natural fear instinct into being faster, stronger, etc. That to ignore your fear will only set you up to be deer in the headlights when the real shite hits the fan. In other words, don't let fear be your enemy, but an ally.

Not too far apart, just different spins on the same concept. But, as Robb so rightly puts it, differing opinions are not bad, particularly if you are willing to state them.

And if others can discuss politely, all the better....keep in mind that online is an imperfect medium...and terse comments can be taken as more abrupt than intended or posted faster than otherwise softer words might be spoken.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:14 pm 
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Ray,
The "right thing" is always subjective, but if everyone followed what they truly believe is the "right thing" and not what others feel they should do...we might have less conflict (notice I did NOT say none...that's not realistic or preferable).

While I prefer peace, I do beleive that a certain level of conflict is where innovation and progress are born. My biggest issue is with sheople who seek someone to follow instead of determining thier own course.

Now...back to the topic of warrior spirit and let's not get too off topic with personal political agendas.... :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:08 pm 
Shana
I don't want to appear too argumentative, or even confrontational, but I feel that I always appear that way on forums :oops: ..makes me want to back off a little and not get involved. Really if we all discussed this over a few cold beers I think folks would be better aquainted with each others viewpoints :cry:
Quote
"
The "right thing" is always subjective, but if everyone followed what they truly believe is the "right thing" and not what others feel they should do."
No !! people ( and not sheeple) do what they need to do to get by, if you are a man it is to try and provide for your wife and kids......and it gets a little blurry nowadays because my wife earns more than I do, but I can live with that because we have a shared objective.........I.E Us and ours.........and it is pretty much like that all around.....even bad guys have their objectives , their morality......I know what is right, and I know what is wrong...sometimes it is harder to stand up to all this politcally correct crap....and all the lies told by politicians...............it is very easy to die :P
really death ain't the worst thing to happen, it can be a releae.......living is harder when you have bad circumstances.......don't get hungt up on warriors
they just get paid a salary.insurgentsand terrorists don't


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:24 am 
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Quote:
A warrior said:

Let me win; but if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt..



And yes, he said it with "words"...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:44 am 
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Seems to me there are different kinds of fear.. that have different effects, perhaps levels of effect, both phyically and mentally..

I'm not sure that fear can't be turned off.. It's known that many a warrior of the past has went into battle with the idea of welcoming death... For the samurai death in battle was a very honorable fate. Did those who charged to their deaths truly have fear? All of them? Some of them?

I have heard a couple of soldiers and others speak of being 'dead already'.. The idea of giving up the hope for living... Only then can one function at their peak, they intimated...

Bruce said: "Lay down your life before your opponent(s)".. Or words to that effect...

In one situation I faced many years ago I believed that I was going to die, or worse.. When I came to the conclusion that I was going to die and that death would be preferable to what might be worse I found that I no longer was afraid... I had been until that moment...

I mused over what I would do (to them) on my way to oblivion...

Was my goal to die at that point?

Was this the extra baggage that needed to be removed to be free of fear? To seek death in battle? Or not to seek life?

How does that fit in with all the theories?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:33 pm 
I don't believe that we just experience one pure emotion.usually we experience a couple of emotions together or one emotion morphing into another.so we may experience fear and then it goes into something else........we see a lion then have fear then think run.........now what I believe happens when people are paralysed with fear is again a mixture of emotions happening at once. It is the mixture that sends them into brainfart mode and makes them inactive :cry: ....I have experienced this myself at work, when I had a lot of deadlines to meet,quickly and I was given a couple more tasks which consumed a lot of my freetime, but also they were things that I had never done before :oops: .so I quickly found myself making stupid mistakes and wishing that I was somewhere else........also many years ago I witnessed a motorcycle accident...and I experienced what folks call the "Halo" effect where you don't believe something is happening.....the kind of thing were you think No I'm imagining this :roll: ..................and if you combine all these things into one package you get the paralysed by fear/brainfart mode.........you can see this sort of thing in crime statistics or crime reports. Rape victims do not believe that it is happening to them, even when it is :cry: ....folks don't believe they are being robbed.years ago I witnessed an armed Robbery on a cash in transit vehicle.and I did not believe what I was seeing :oops: ......................Now a lot of folks look to the military or the police for ideas about this sort of thing, but that is very wrong.unless you belong to either of these organisations.........they pick up things subliminaly and by experience, we all do.but from our own work experiences.......I am quite blase about courts and dealing with police officers because I do it all the time...I am useless in a medical environment
but my wife being a nurse has no problems.
So what does that say about warriors and fighting spirit.........well pretty much that it is what they do and they get used to it...on the flip side however you have insurgents or terrorists.........now in some way perhaps they are greater warriors than the military, because they don't have all that training and it's sort of funny because as a warrior society has given you permission to ignore the usual morality that most people live by,,,,,,,this permission hasn't been given to the insurgent.so he has gone against all the rules imposed on him by society.maybe he is the true warrior :?..............if you look at it from a bravery viewpoint .who is the braver the military guy shooting his heavy machine gun in his attack helicopter a mile away.or the roadside bomber...neither in my book.
How do we apply this to martial arts...well all the traditional martial arts in Japan are military in nature.karate isn't really a traditional martial art it's a "Contempary" art,,,compare shotokan history to katori shinto ryu and you have a difference of about 500 years of practise :lol: ...if you are looking for "Self Defence" then you have to dig a bit deeper.......... a lot of western concepts and ideas are far better, boxing, CQB etc


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