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Well I don't know if I entirely agree with that...a lot depends on the circumstances one faces, and also what skills you have..a heavyweight boxer with a lot of fights under his belt would be more confident about getting into a fight than say a kata champion.......and the same goes for soldiers, if you are facing an army half your size, with badly disciplined troops and little moral.then it is a lot easier than facing a force twice your size with better trained men........in the past Moral played a significant part in any outcome, you can read about this in history books also the tactics of armies, even fighting hand to hand ( such as the Romans and the Greeks) are very,very different from two people fighting each other . Really it is a vast subject that folks try to pin down into one little area and it can't be done

Point well taken

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Gentlemen, please continue this interesting and good discussion, and thank you for your thoughts and input.


I just want to encourage any female lurkers out there to also response. I think Harlan and I are the only ones to put in our two cents on this topic. I know it can seem overwhelming with some of the strong personalities, but one of the questions that remains mostly unaddressed is whether men and women view this concept differently. any thoughts?

Ladies?

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Shana

Van put your skirt on !!!!LOL

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Ray,
This is a bit off topic so I'll try to keep this brief:
First, not offended, we just disagree here..which is just fine by me, as long as we keep it civil...which you and I seem to do just fine!

I agree that people do what they need to do to get by, but I don't think that is the only reality. Folks also do what they think will help them fit in, and this doesn't always have to do with survival...merely the fear of being different. If more people did what they personally believed was right, not just what they are told or what they feel will be more acceptable to the majority...I honestly believe life would be more complicated and in many ways better.

Biology shows that a diverse ecological model bests survives periods of stress. In other words..the more options you have, the more variety, the more likely solutions will be available to various natural stressors and conflicts...does this mean all survive..uh...no. It just increases the odds that someone will always survive.

and I'm getting waaaaay off topic here...(sorry for the ramble)...back to our regularly scheduled program

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Shana

Jim,
I value your opinion, so thank you for sharing those quotes and your thoughts. Also, remember that everyone does not have to agree here...and that's rather unlikely(total consensus)...kinda like herding cats (only some of these have nasty sharp teeth and a 'tude to match!).

In considering your quotes and thoughts, I go back to my understanding of the oft quoted Samurai/death concept. I don't think it means to seek and embrace death. I think it means to accept the reality, and through doing so it frees you of the constraints of self protection. In other words, you take the "me" out of the equation, and focus on the "here, now" and what to do. you have more options when they are not limited by the need to protect yourself at all costs. THat is MUCH different than no fear and MUCH different than LOVING death.

That said...first, thanks for sharing that personal experience. Second, I think the decision made that you had "little to lose" freed you to act in the "now". I'm fairly certain that fear was still a little gibbering idiot in the very back of your mind, but it was behind a wall of NOW...and so you didn't see/hear/feel it.

But that is only my interpretation of the situation, and I was not there.

I readily admit that I believe fear does not go away, but you can put it aside or channel it...and I'm not sure each of us will deal with our fear in quite the same way.

Let's just hope, if the time comes, that we will deal with it in an effective manner, and that our training and our mental theorizing...will have helped prepare us in some way to take a positive tact instead of freezing.

Ray,
I think you've hit on something there in that conflict involves mutiple emotions, sometimes mixed together and sometimes flowing quickly one into another.

I would only disagree on one point. I agree that "brainfarts" - -we've all been there - -may be when too many sensory inputs happen at once. Mixed emotions can be part of this. But I also believe that a lack of training or failure to ever consider "what if"..even fleetingly...can leave many folks paralyzed with indecision. I do NOT think that MA training will help everyone win a fight or save themselves in a violent conflict...that's not a gimme, but I do think that proper training should at least give you some basic drone options that may allow your brain to catch up and direct you when brain fart or indecision strike...at least that would be a hope.

I would also agree with you and Robb that day in and day out experience for LEOs and military provides an edge in how to respond to these moments.

Lastly, I woudl disagree that Karate is not a traditonal art. I think it is a traditional art practiced through a contemporary lens. The basics have a foundation in tradition. How we know apply that training and how we discuss the application or adapt things to current known science, or the flavour of the month....is modern...but the foundation, roots, and soul (if you will) is still a martial and traditional art.

Does that mean little joey is a warrior....uh...no. not at ALL!

Lastly, Ray, in my opinion...if you are simply looking to be a fighter, then your best bet is to train in multiple disciplines until you find the one or ones that best fit YOU....whatever that is.

Robb,
interesting...and not a level most of us will reach....so perhaps, as we've discussed above..the best way is learning how to deal with your fear in some way or another...and hope training and prior consideration "kick in" if ever needed?

What I mean by prior consideration, is that ...well, for example...I've been told if I really want to learn how to shoot a gun, then I need to consider, before I even pick one up...if I will ever be willing to shoot another person. Even if the answer is no, I'll at least have considered this situation before I am forced to by circumstance because you never point a gun at a person if you don't mean to shoot them.....

I think the same goes here, and is a small part (very small, but part nonetheless) of why I started this topic. I don't, as I've stated, believe training in MA makes us warriors. But I think we should consider what we would do in a violent situation and how far we would be willing to go in various situations. One, so we will be able to act and not freeze with indecision. Two, because it helps us to form a personal code of action and belief.

I have to agree with Ray that troops fighting is much different than a one on one fight...but dealing with fear...hmmm.....more consideration and experience required here for any valid opinion to be formed....fear is fear is it not? Does sharing it make it less?

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Shana

Never suggested otherwise...


Agreed to a point but some of this is semantics IMO.


Agree and also not..

1. Some of these kinds of warriors do/did seek death in battle...

2. When/if you take yourself out of the equation what is there to fear?

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Shana
Quote
"I agree that people do what they need to do to get by, but I don't think that is the only reality. Folks also do what they think will help them fit in, and this doesn't always have to do with survival...merely the fear of being different. If more people did what they personally believed was right, not just what they are told or what they feel will be more acceptable to the majority...I honestly believe life would be more complicated and in many ways better. "


I'm thinking very broadly here.take our working lives as an example ,sometimes we are stuck in a rut doing a job we hate but can't move on because we have a family to support, we may hate our boss.
Same as fitting in, getting on with co-workers, sometimes you can't help but dislike certain people but you sometimes just have to toe the line and try and get on.......when we look at violence then you also have people doing the same thing. Some folks will back down, give ground.anything to avoid conflict or violence..........there are martial arts teachers out there even oriental ones who have never had a fight in their lives they are in the same boat.so now you have "Experts" to tell them about real violence

Quote
I think you've hit on something there in that conflict involves mutiple emotions, sometimes mixed together and sometimes flowing quickly one into another.

I would only disagree on one point. I agree that "brainfarts" - -we've all been there - -may be when too many sensory inputs happen at once. Mixed emotions can be part of this. But I also believe that a lack of training or failure to ever consider "what if"..even fleetingly...can leave many folks paralyzed with indecision. I do NOT think that MA training will help everyone win a fight or save themselves in a violent conflict...that's not a gimme, but I do think that proper training should at least give you some basic drone options that may allow your brain to catch up and direct you when brain fart or indecision strike...at least that would be a hope.
Well I am trying to get across an idea that has been with me for quite some time I think that most situations in life are very complex, because people are complex .look at the social sciences.........they are the least scientific area of study that I know................ Sociology ....or even worse economics....look how many experts there are in the banking system and look how many stockmarket crashes we have had ...................I'm being very general here.
Now I think back to situations that I have been that were potentially violent or were indeed violent .....they were the result of complex situations, even taking into account things like martial arts experience..........a while back I talked about " Black Swans" which is something that really hit home to me...............a real epiphany , this was a book that said that unexpected things i.e. " Black Swan" events were what controlled history.......unexpected things..like 9/11.....and I think that applies to martial arts study......so I don't like to do things that I think are irrelevant or too complex

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Hi Robb
You just stirring the pot...or What?........this site is noted for it's spirited disscussions .....when folks try to dumb them down .or bring up the same old stories then the site looses it's attractions and folks don't post....everything goes quiet ......I don't make a living out of my MA's.........kinda cool really...............real world I'm more interested in my investments, sometimes the temptation to just look at them and forget about this site and all the petty arguments gets kinda overwhelming

hmmm...fair 'nuff Jim. In truth, some of this is semantics and simply how you look at it. Same object/thought, different angle of perception.

Hmmm...yeah, I guess I'd have to agre that some of these kinds of warriors do/did seek death in battle...especially if you believe terrorist and suicide bombers qualify as warriors (I honestly have not determined if I personally believe they belong in this category but it has been suggested here).

As to your last question...that is intriguing. Off the top of my head I would say that if you take yourself out of the equation, the only item left to fear is the survival of others. Whether that be your children or your brother and sisters in arms or innocents that you are charged with or have set yourself to protect...and THAT can also affect how you fight.

Theoretically, that could make you stronger or weaker.
I don't have the experience to know which it would do for me. I would like to think, if it were my child or loved ones, that I would be fiercer..but I won't know until I'm tested (hopefully not anytime soon).

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Shana

.

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Ray and Robb, we're kinda getting off topic here...so as not to encourage that too much, I'll try to keep this brief.

Ray, true, many of us are stuck in ruts or jobs that are not our ideal. But that doesn't mean we have to just toe the line and muddle through. We always have choices. Those choices may not always be ideal, but we have choices. I was in a job I HATED, mainly because of my boss. So, I went back to school at night to get my bachelors degree. I could only afford (time and $$ wise) to take 2 classes/semester, but I did what a could. It made dealing with the horrible boss easier. After a few years, I graduated with my BS degree ( let's not go there mmmmmkay? ) And within 6 months, I had applied for a better job with a better company (at better pay). Took a few years, but I made a CHOICE to take steps and not just toe the line and hang my head.

Robb,
Having limited experience with Explosive Uechi (though respect, to be sure from what I have seen/read), I can see your point...but.....
would EU have developed if not for the traditional foundation? Does EU lose anything from being an adaptation of a traditional art?

I honestly believe that there is worth in tradition. I also beleive that certain circumstances (guns, new ways of warfare, etc.) require adaptation to the situation, but that does not take away from the worth of tradition.

Modern advances are usually..not always..but usually, built on the backs of prior innovations. I do not think we should forget that.

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grin...please don't...I love a good discussion..and a little stirring is fine...just don't turn the heat up too high or will all get burnt fingers or buns..ouch!

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Shana