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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:49 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UFCMcd4tA

Okikukai sanseiryu bunkai.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:14 am 
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Thanks, Dana, that would be great!

Regards,
Vicki

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:34 pm 
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Vicki,
Would Sunday be an option? You wouldn't get to play with the rest of the dojo but I'd have more time available to train.

I'll try to catch you on the phone tonight as I commute home.

cheers,
-d

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Josann wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UFCMcd4tA

Okikukai sanseiryu bunkai.


Josann,
Any reason why the bunkai seems basic? I'd have thought an advanced kata would have different applications than those shown. For example different angles, targets, etc. :?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Is the purpose of a yakosuko bunkai (pre-arranged application) to show every variety of tactic on earth? Not in my book. The purpose of a yakosuko bunkai is to memorialize application principles that the practitioner then expands upon and varies in oyo bunkai (open application).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:10 pm 
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Mike:
You'd think so. To me this is an application, not
[u]the application. I think some of the applications shown, but in my mind these are basic. maybe it is to show something for demonstrations, but I agree with you.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:11 pm 
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Dana Sheets wrote:
Is the purpose of a yakosuko bunkai (pre-arranged application) to show every variety of tactic on earth? Not in my book. The purpose of a yakosuko bunkai is to memorialize application principles that the practitioner then expands upon and varies in oyo bunkai (open application).


Thanks Dana. I know that different ryuha have their own views of kata and application, thanks for explaining Okikukai's. I do have to ask, is are the application principles you mentioned blocked out in certain sections of the kata? The reason I ask is that at times the kata looks to be showing a principle or longer application, but the bunkai for the movements is very short and even seems to break the longer application into short none related pieces. At least that's how it seems to me a non-Uechi person.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:57 pm 
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Just to be clear--I was not presenting an Okikukai policy or opinion about pre-arranged bunkai, I was presenting my own understanding.

I think people want to be able to string together 3, 4, or 8 kata moves because it would be so wonderful to have some kind of prescribed series of moves that would always work. But you can't prescribe that many moves of a violent encounter accurately.

My understanding of any of the systems that date from the 19th century is that each kata movement is its own model (hsing) and should be analyzed that way - but it is important to remember that each movement begins with the movement into it and ends with the movement out of it. As a friend of mine mentioned to me - when you look a transcriptions of chinese forms, there is one posture, then a whole bunch of arrows pointing this way and that way that try to describe the transitional movements, then there's the second posture.

I tend to look at each kata movement with the following questions in mind:
1) what is the line of incoming force
2) what is my level of aggression
3) what is simple
4) where is my weight/center of gravity going
5) where is the attacker's weight/center of gravity going (open gates)
6) how am I sourcing/using power? (i.e. I'm generating all of it, I'm using their force, I'm blending force, I'm evading their force entirely)
7) what elements involve linear force and what elements involve spiral force
8) what made sense in 1850?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:24 pm 
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Dana Sheets wrote:
Just to be clear--I was not presenting an Okikukai policy or opinion about pre-arranged bunkai, I was presenting my own understanding.


Sorry about that Dana, that was my bad.

Dana Sheets wrote:
I think people want to be able to string together 3, 4, or 8 kata moves because it would be so wonderful to have some kind of prescribed series of moves that would always work. But you can't prescribe that many moves of a violent encounter accurately.


I don't know about always working but I don't think it's wrong to expect one, two, three or four moves to make up a sequence if a kata is a catalog of a systems moves. And while I agree with you that you can't fully predict every move in a violent encounter, you still can use, and likely will use, a sequence of techniques that can be 2, 3,4 or even more in lengths.

Dana Sheets wrote:
My understanding of any of the systems that date from the 19th century is that each kata movement is its own model (hsing) and should be analyzed that way - but it is important to remember that each movement begins with the movement into it and ends with the movement out of it.


I've only played at one Chinese system, Taiji Chuan and not very deeply, but I'm not sure about Okinawan or Japanese systems. The Yang TC I was practicing was more open ended when comparing the form to application, but it wasn't totally open ended. Sequences generally had some goal in mind. On the other hand with Karate I can usually see applications in older kata without much trouble.

Hope all is well with you guys up yonder. 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:55 pm 
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Thanks Mike,
All is very well. Our son keeps the house full of busy footsteps, song, and joy.

I agree that one can choreograph sequences of 2, 3, or 4 moves and it is generally easy to see how some uechi moves suggest a combination. The important concept, to me, is that the kata does not dictate the combination but allows for it.

Uechi is fundamentally an 1880's Chinese boxing system as seen and understood through the lens of an Okinawan man in the 1890's. A man who happened to have a bit of experience training staff and other forms of the day, and a man who developed into a proponent of a variation of the 8-fold path and self-improvement.

If you recall from the Patrick McCarthy seminar, there were fads and fashions to kata in Southern China just as there were (and are) fads and fashions in warfare, policing, dance, music, flower arranging, etc. Some forms were designed to create the pattern of a particular chinese character, some (like Uechi Konchin kata) were developed as tribute forms to a teacher, still others were created solely for the demonstration stage to raise money from a crowd.

The exact nature of the complete thinking behind each Uechi kata is lost to the sands of time. But we do have some general, and very effective principles, that guide the applications.

For me, that's enough.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Dana Sheets wrote:
The important concept, to me, is that the kata does not dictate the combination but allows for it.


Dana, That was very well put. 8)

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