Uechi-Ryu.com

I agree with a lot of what you said...men and women have some differences it's just a matter of what those differences mean. I also belive many are too much of "take care of me" mentality. I also believe fewer men are either physically abused or report it when they are. I disagree that something has to reach a point where it becomes a problem. A problem is when something is temporarily or permantly in need of adjustment . It doesn't need to qualify for funding. It simple is. now..a public responsibility? hmmmm..nope..I believe to some degree we are responsible for caring for and helping one another as decent humans..but a problem can be addressed simply by awareness..like you said earlier..simple thhings mean a lot.

It will sound overly simplistic,pehaps, but makes it nonetheless true that we should treat eachother with respect. When we see others being abused, we should take action..whether that be befriending the person later, reporting to the police, stepping in, pray, or simply making sure your children know that is wrong and why... the action taken is a personal choice. To do nothing though is to bear some responsibility. so..female of male..abuse IS aproblem...the cure or action to take..that's more complicated and difficult

_________________
Live True, Laugh often
Shana

"The stats we posted earlier show it's ROUGHLY 80/20 female/male"

Do keep in mind that those stats reflect charged assaults. The fact of the matter is that when police show up at the scene of a domestic violence call, if the woman is bleeding and the man isn't (or is bleeding less) he gets cuffed. That's the law which is meant to prevent death.

There is absolutely no way to know if the women involved pushed, shoved, or did nothing prior to being hit. And any good defense attorney will tell them to be vary careful about how they describe what they did.

Domestic violence isn't an issue of "big bad men." Domestic violence is a more complex situation than the statistics reflect.

_________________
Did you show compassion today?

Quote
""The stats we posted earlier show it's ROUGHLY 80/20 female/male"

Well my experience is different, I would say that it is more like 95% male on female,
but let us not forget also that there are other forms of domestic violence, for example Wayward sons attacking their parents, or even wayward daughters attacking their parents .that is something that is not always looked at
Quote
"Do keep in mind that those stats reflect charged assaults. The fact of the matter is that when police show up at the scene of a domestic violence call, if the woman is bleeding and the man isn't (or is bleeding less) he gets cuffed. That's the law which is meant to prevent death.

Yeah and it can get even more complicated than that.....you can get a criminal history of violence between two spouces, which only reflects court hearings and doesn't really reflect what has gone on


Quote
"Domestic violence isn't an issue of "big bad men." Domestic violence is a more complex situation than the statistics reflect."

Yes it is very complex, but any type of violence, and I mean REAL violence not the Kung fu movie stuff is very complex.it isn't just punch kick and block.and it may involve drink and drugs.and the people involved may not be Angels either..When I deal with them I deal in a very direct manner because I have an objective.I need them to go to court....to get them into a court room is my job...other folks, social workers, women's support groups, Women's refuges have a different perspective, I have an outcome in mind
Quote
"I disagree that something has to reach a point where it becomes a problem. A problem is when something is temporarily or permantly in need of adjustment . It doesn't need to qualify for funding. It simple is. now..a public responsibility? hmmmm..nope..I believe to some degree we are responsible for caring for and helping one another as decent humans..but a problem can be addressed simply by awareness..like you said earlier..simple things mean a lot.

Well it doesn't, ....what happens is that it becomes political.in my country there is a big thing on about " HATE Crime".which IMHO is about as childish as the label, and under that label comes all kinds of stuff that our current Junta deems worthy of support ..domestic violence is one of them but for the people involved in it ( and I thankfully am no longer involved)...it is a PITTA.......you jump through hoops for an ungrateful woman, giving her support to get her to court etc and it comes to nothing ...so why bother??
As they say " You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink

and there are so many other,more worthy cases going on, where people really do need support and will respond, be brave , go to court and sometimes in the face of all sorts of threats .........so you start to question

I am very uncomfortable and disappointed with the use of the term "ungrateful woman". Court is by no means a Panacea. It does not guarantee safety. It is not present when the charged comes back to demonstrate how angry they are at being brought to court. Working in a hospital, I have seen several severe and near-fatal violent attacks as a direct result of a restraining order being filed, of involvement of police, of leaving a relationship. Spinal fractures, collapsed lung, loss of sight, stabbings...far beyond punching and pushing.

I can imagine your frustration of why-won't-you-just-leave?!?!---but to carry that sentiment to a conclusion of "ungrateful woman" is unflatteringly aggressive and naive. I can't think of many (?any) other situations where being "grateful", a.k.a. cooperative, proactive, take-charge, self-preserving, and law-abiding, can be so dangerous.

The more I think about this topic, the more I review what I've seen, what, I know, and what I feel---the more I understand.

Be safe. Be brave. Plan carefully. Rally your supports. Create and include as many resources as you can---one of which is the court-system. If you are in an abusive relationship, only YOU know when it is safe to try and get out alive.

Quote
"I am very uncomfortable and disappointed with the use of the term "ungrateful woman".
Well what else can you call them? they have all the support that they need and yet do nothing or go back to the person that is beating them .............and there are a lot of folks who think that Taxpayers dollars mean nothing, money to be squandered...but I don't and I would rather help people who appreciate it than those that don't. In fact I think that they should be propsecuted for wasting police time.

Quote
"but to carry that sentiment to a conclusion of "ungrateful woman" is unflatteringly aggressive and naive................it may be unflattering but how do you flatter someone who just wants to be a victim and does nothing for themselves, there is nothing praiseworthy in that approach......aggressive and Naive...........maybe but I'm not some left thinking, liberal social worker who sits there wringing their hands worrying about " Nurturing" and "empowering" people, I would prefer to get things resolved

Quote
"Court is by no means a Panacea. It does not guarantee safety. It is not present when the charged comes back to demonstrate how angry they are at being brought to court. "

Fine what do you suggest then?.....

Ray,
First, understand you are not being attacked, but disagreed with...there is a difference.

Second, in working with the courts and abused, I am sure you are aware of the necessity to be sensitive...at least to some degree...to your audience. I also have to believe you know better than some of what you are saying, and it is your frustration speaking more than your brain. You are smarter than this, so please think carefully before you post on this issue. Your insight is valuable, but we need insight, not just anger.

Keep in mind this is a women's forum...so, not only are you talking to women, who might just..for some reason ...resent the term "ungrateful women" simply because it's demeaning and derogatory.

Also keep in mind that some of the people you are speaking to HAVE been abused....and might further resent your label ...even while understanding (intellectually) where some of it is coming from. If one didn't make allowances for anger and frustration, it would be easy to assume that you truly don't understand the people you are working with or haven't been properly trained to help them, and that would be bad.

I appreciate your viewpoint, but have you truly been reading the responses of others here? As an agent of the court, do they not provide some of the same training materials we have here to understand why so many of the people you work with keep falling back into the cycle of abuse. It might help your frustration and your clients to pay attention to some of what has been posted here, so you can get a better idea of the "why" and not just that "it keeps happening".

What else is there besides the courts?
KNOWLEDGE
and
SUPPORT

Like all people who return to negative situations..which can be anything from domestic abuse to bad jobs....it's often because they feel they have no other options. Whether that "no options" feeling is because they lack self esteem, lack functional skills, lack access to resources, lack self determination and drive or whatever....that helpless "no options" feeling can be a powerful demotivator.

So you don't think you are supposed to be all nurturing like a social worker..fine...that's likely not in your job description, but you can get them in touch with those who do that for a living. There are support groups all over that are created for this..profit and non profit, public and private.

Your comments, to me, are based on the assumption that these women are stupid and worthless. I certainly hope that is not your intention. They are scared, and they may be quite ignorant...that does not mean they are hopeless or worthless. It also doesn't mean they aren't grateful for the assistance. It simply means they need options that seem possible to them.

yeah...suxs...and no...it's not always going to work. Some folks are simply so scared or hopeless that it would take significant one on one support to help them move past thier blocks. AND...there are some that have some weird co-dependent dynamic going on that has to reach a point where they find they have to change....sorta like alcholholics, I would guess.

So...if you are seeing these people as ungrateful and not worth your time...then perhaps you need to step back and moment and consider what that means to you and to the clients you serve.

For this person who has been abused, I was very grateful to those who helped me while I got back to myself. I hope I remembered to thank them all.

_________________
Live True, Laugh often
Shana

Maybe that applies with the area you work in Ray instead of overall?

That said, either there is more abuse toward woman, or men simply do not report it as often.

Quote
"Ray,
First, understand you are not being attacked, but disagreed with...there is a difference. "
I know that I'm not being attacked, I'm just disagreeing back

Quote
"

Second, in working with the courts and abused, I am sure you are aware of the necessity to be sensitive...at least to some degree...to your audience. I also have to believe you know better than some of what you are saying, and it is your frustration speaking more than your brain. You are smarter than this, so please think carefully before you post on this issue. Your insight is valuable, but we need insight, not just anger.

Keep in mind this is a women's forum...so, not only are you talking to women, who might just..for some reason ...resent the term "ungrateful women" simply because it's demeaning and derogatory. "

I need to clarify somethings here, I no longer work with abused women, as I've said, and I am not frustrated or angry, I never have been even when I worked with them, I am speaking very honestly here......I do my job to the best of my abilities, in all honesty abused women are not the worst things that I have had to deal with by any means.
But for the record I have had an abused female witness shouting abuse in the court...I asked to speak to her to calm her down and she called me a fkking shcitthouse..the next day I phoned her to see how she was......so

you have your preconceptions based on stereotypes that you have rejected or created.......I don't have these issues, I am not argueing with you emotionally. I don't have to win the argument.but what I say is based on experience not in one case of abuse but in many.....generally there are three outcomes first and best the woman leaves the man and he is prosecuted and this is best because there is criminal history that can be used in the future.................if she retracts her statement and complaint he can still be prosecuted........second is she retracts or doesn't wish to proceed but still leaves the man...third is worse she retracts and goes back to the man and lets the whole thing happen again....now you seem unhappy with the term " ungrateful woman".........I don't understand why?.it is perfectly descriptive of her actions

Quote
"I also have to believe you know better than some of what you are saying, "

No I don't ...............what I said, I said to help abused women, I could come back with some politically correct clap trap, and that does really annoy me .
I can't "empower them" and I can't "nurture them" and frankly neither can anyone else.there comes a point were they have to stand up for themselves
and when they have the necesary support in place, not doing anything is unacceptable in my book
It's a bit like Anorexics.....you can only go so far, after a time they have to feed themselves.

Quote
Maybe that applies with the area you work in Ray instead of overall?

That said, either there is more abuse toward woman, or men simply do not report it as often.
Yeah absolutely............you can't trust statistics, I know of a lot of women being abused who will not come forward becayuse they are in ethnic minorities where it is considered ok to beat your wife............used to be ok here once upon a time, so we can't really judge.but the courts and politicos will do nothing because they are ethnic minorities and it would be politically incorrect to interfere..so you get Asian schoolgirls suddenly Disappearing to go to india or pakistan for an arranged marriage.they wouldn't tolerate the disappearance of an English school girl..frankly some things make me sick to my boots

Major problem. My dad works with abused south asian woman. They usually get stiffed by gettin enticed to come over here.
These arn't just yokels, some are college or university educated, but then are abused or neglected when they come over. They usually don't know who to turn to.

The other thing to remember about them is that they don't have access to the support network that none imigrants have, either because they are unaware of it, have language difficulties or because they stay within their own community were domestic violence is much more tolerated and acceptable, and to walk away from a marriage is considered shamefull...................also look at "Honour Killings".......this is the girl's own parents .so you can see how hard it is for them

Having services to combat domestic abuse from WITHIN the community really helps, they are far more willing and able to go to seek support services that come from within their communities, since language is less of a problem. My dad provides social services from a south asian multicultural center and womans shelter.

Many do not go outside services offered outside teh south asian community because they fear their entire culture will get blamed/stigmatized. And lets face it, it does happen, sweeping generalizations are usually made. And they hate to be the cause of it all. Just talk to them. Couple that with fear and seeing divorce and shameful....

The woman i have met fear the husbands and inlaws more than their own parents. The parents seem afraid of the husband and in laws.

To be honest I have had no experience with south East Asian women.............nor has anybody that I know, which I guess speaks volumes, it also says something about statistics ........very often I deal with things on a day to day basis and my other sources of information, e.g. my family and my life experiences provide more infromation than my job....one example is my wife who is a nurse, I said to her that there was no gun crime in our area ( there was none on the police side that I had heard of).she told me of four gunshot victims on her ward Also she told me of an Asian nurse with whom she was friend who had been abused.and the way that.she and her family dealt with that
...............I guess that there is lots more to say on that one but on as forum it gets difficult

In fact It is very difficult to speak constructively on the internet about anything really ...too many different perspectives,viewpoints etc...and don't forget culture.........don't think for one minute that because an Englishman can converse with an American ( or a Canadian for that matter) that they have anything in comon.or that you get anything like an understanding of the person that you are speaking to......it can be surprising