Uechi-Ryu.com

In another thread, Cecil the "Questioning" posed a topic that certainly relates to women in the martial arts - beginning our study for many reasons - sometimes labels we are attached to us because of our association in what can be perceived as a "masculine" sport.

Cecil writes:
<blockquote>Question: how do more "moderate" (politically speaking) women feel when they hear radical feminist dogma? ...I'm dying for input from you, Lori-Sensei, Melanie, and other women out there.
</blockquote>

(He also has started a thread relating to this topic on his forum - check it out at Creative Brother)


Melanie-san and I expressed some of our thoughts on the matter in the "Mindsetting on Fear" thread - but the upshot of what we've said so far is that the extremist groups tend to undermine their own position by their radical stands... Melanie writes:
<blockquote>I personally feel that extremist feminist views stemming from hate serve only to alienate. Also I take excetion to those radical femisists that proport to speak for all women. They certainly don't speak for me. I think where radical feminism errs is in their antiquated notion that attaining equality for women necessitates making women into men. A concept rich in irony, don't you think? </blockquote>

Joan Neide writes of exemplary instructors in the Uechi world who look at students, not gender and are an inspiration to upcoming instructors.

Then our own Doctor X adds his remarks:

<blockquote>One of the dangers of extreme thinking is that it alienates everyone. All feminists become "feminazis" and the entire movement suffers. This carries over to many movements.
Unfortunate. Avoid being an "ist."</blockquote>

So far we seem to have advocates for the middle path. Being martial artists, perhaps this is to be expected. Then why are stereotypes attached to women who study martial arts? I've heard a few of them - and even received email from "the great unwashed" who seem to think that because I participate in a martial arts forum, and am female, then I should fit one of the stereotypes - and want to know if I do. Don't know which ones I'm talking about? Take your pick: feminist, womens' libber, dominatrix and even lesbian. Now, I'm not condoning or condeming any specific group, but I am objecting to the attachment of labels on someone because they choose to study martial arts. Perhaps it is this ready association with labels that keeps more women from participating on this forum!

Are you guilty of perpetuating the labels by either ignorant assumption or your silence in proclaiming otherwise? Are you an "-ist" or an adherant to an "-ism"? Speak up - here's your chance. You don't have to agree with me, or J.D. or Melanie in order to post on this topic. Dissenting, (albeit polite) views are welcome - male and female alike.



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Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu

Tony-san,

Thanks for the opportunity to peruse the " scum manifesto" !

In all fairness , some of the odious intrusive qualities of insensitive men , hit home as a ton of bricks ! But similar qualities apply to women as well ! Consider my investigations of deeply disturbed men who were sexually abused by their older sisters early in life ! The sleaze you find in men , you find in women at every cross road of life , albeit in much lesser percentage ! Nonetheless , there !

Then some men set the standard of personified grace and patrician bearing in their pursuit of power and skill , a gift of nature there for the taking ! Look at Joe DI Maggio !

" Scum" injects forth the zombie Aristotelian notion of either/or , this or that bull**** , this way or that way "sans nuances" ; that life is a linear path , with no detours , side roads, or off ramps combined with a monopoly of sexual imperialism !

It is precisely the imperfect programming of men and women by nature that ensured we got this far in evolution ! Our 'scum' friends neglect to grasp the reality that the human continuum is a perennial Darwinian struggle for survival , and had men been born or made to turn into 'women' , the delicate natural balance would have been destroyed !

Nature has also programmed imperfections so as to control the extinction of the human race by overpopulation ; thus the spawning of freakish creatures and ideals !

Back in Europe we have had conversations of this very subject matter with very beautiful and feminine women , and invariably they muse that such rantings flag the dying throes of desiccated wombs never able to have quaked in orgasmic bliss !


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Van Canna

Lori-sensei,

Thanks for the reference to my page, and the opportunity to learn about this scum manifesto thing.

Is that lady who wrote that essay the Unabomber's twin sister or what??? I've been hurt by the opposite gender, like most guys, but I'm not about to call for the eradication of all females. She has some serious problems (obviously, right???)

I like the reference to the "Middle Path" that someone made above. Hopefully that is what the martial arts can teach us. However, I think that there are people out there who think that the only way you can really have an opinion about something is to be an extremist. Unfortunately, there are wackos out there, who probably have some type of martial arts manefisto that is the equivalent of this scum thing against men.

Cecil

P.S.: the scary thing is that I bet there are women out there who believe this stuff!!!!

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net

Here is one thing that Ms. Insane (Valery Solanas) do agree on :

"The vast majority of people, particularly the `educated' ones, lacking faith in their own judgment, humble, respectful of authority (`Daddy knows best'), are easily conned into believing that obscurity, evasiveness, incomprehensibility, indirectness, ambiguity and boredom are marks of depth and brilliance. "

In regards to the martial arts: those secret, hidden, marvel techniques, that next ultra secret form that is taught only to the select students of the super-duper-grand-grand-master, that unknown, super hidden style---these are the key to greatness. Not learning a decent number of forms AND what ALL of the moves in the forms mean, mastering a good repetoire of technique while being open to learning new things. Not learning what will really work---oh no! If everyone can learn it given effort on their part then it's not worth knowing.

Right?!? (Yeah, Right.)

Cecil

On the rest of her outlooks; she's a bit kooky, but unfortunately mixes in some truth so that the naive may believe her lies.

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net

test

Hi Cecil-san,

No problem on the website mention - anytime!

I only have a minute before class, but I wanted to mention quickly that your point is well-taken about the "scum" manifesto having some sprinklings of truth mixed in with the venom. She slams women pretty hard in there as well - I couldn't take reading the whole thing - but some of the topics in there are definitly food for discussion. Like J.D.-san mentions above - extremists seem to act upon the motto - if there isn't conflict - create one!



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Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu

Ok, I've never posted before...but here I go...
When I hear such ‘radical feminist dogma', I feel more pity for the speakers than anything else. These women do not realize that the potential for change comes from within, not without. If every women believed in herself as much as the average man does, we would be living in a very different world. I feel that martial arts is one of those few places where women are learning to think and fight for themselves, and as a result to facilitate that essential change within. To me, women who do not believe in or think for themselves are just as disturbing as those men who reinforce their insecurities. I think perhaps that is why this sort of talk is so aggravating to a female martial artist, as we are perhaps hyper-aware of the fact that the fight is against yourself, not against the male ‘kingdom' as poor misled Ms. Solanas believes (I'm assuming she is not married...).

Thanks,
Phoebe Cohen
Cornell University

Tony, Seems V.S. has some basic need which isn't being fulfilled and is surely looking for something, isn't she? Good luck. Allen

I tried reading her manifesto of hatred for men but realized this poorly disturbed soul was either:

a) Assaulted in a very bad way by a man.
b) A radical lesbian biker bitch built like a brick bunker. (sorry)
c) Once deeply in love with some schmuck who put an ultimate hurt on her.

Not knowing this woman I would tend to vote on C. How many of you guys were once put over the barrel by someone you really felt for or knew of a close friend who went through a similar experience. While we were all sitting around around the bar/livingroom/parking lot drinking beer and smoking all kinds of mean nasty things, what were our comments about women? I'll bet you all weren't putting women on any petestals. If you are like me and my friends, we were saying some pretty awfull things. You saw it manifest itself with shows like Married with children. As absurb as the show was, it did sometimes hit the nail on the head. Who came up with the bumber sticker: Life's a bitch, then you marry one. Men.

The anti-women messages are in many rock and rap lyrics and have been for years. When we were hurt, they became our anthems. But, eventually, if we grew up, we met another woman, fell in love again and started the same old vicious cycle (heh heh). Look what Andrew Dice Clay and Sam Kennisan (sp?) went through. They expressed their emotions and experiences through humor then were reamed by many feminists for doing so.

I think this women needs a therapist. She also needs to stay away from me - I'm scared of her. Men - don't cheat on your wives. There may be SCUM ryu stylists out there ready to try out their Lorena Bobbit techniques on ya.

It's early
It's snowing
And I'm skipping work

Scott




[This message has been edited by Scott Danziger (edited 03-15-99).]

Just to point it out, but worthy of note ... the website in particular also has:

"A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift. This was intended as a farcical (sp?) social commentary and the precise message was not intended to be taken at face value.

Since I do not know the history behind the "SCUM Manifesto" it is possible that it too is intended as a farce.

Assuming for a moment that the original writer is serious in there beliefs, then keep in mind that the document has no accompanying evidence of any kind (for example, man (as opposed to women) is responsible for war. I am not saying necessarily that it isn't true, but there is no accompanying evidence to back it up in the docuement, not even a bibliography that suggests such evidence).

Lastly, the document clearly shows the authors lack of knowledge (fo example, "There is no human reason for money". Well, there are lots of human reasons for money, most predominant that it facilitates the barter system).

The real scary thing is that the person who wrote it might actually believe it, and might even act on it. If nothing else this should be a reminder that there are kooks out there, and there are people who believe in kooky things, be prepared!

Jason

Anthony, you are talking about a cancer.

"What happens is a lesbian female, commonly known as "The Bull Dyke"...."

Anthony, the majority of women I know that hate men are NOT lesbians, in fact they are VERY herterosexual.

Interesting thing is, if you ask them, they would tell you that "No, I don't hate men", yet their words and deeds indicate otherwise. To date, I have only meet one woman who admits to being what I call a "male-sogynist", and ironically, she is a good friend of mine! I think it is because she doesn't see me as a real man because I'm not a borderline criminal or a wannabe thug type. Now she's never come out and told me this, but one day I was commenting about how there aren't very many overtly toughguy types in our industry, as far as I know, and she said "Yeah, I know. You and" so and so "are the closest thing around here to real men".

Yet she and others of her type advocate using men, abusing men, getting them for what they can get, automatically assume that the man is wrong in ANY situation. Yes, I have worked for "male-sogynist" bosses who automatically find in favor of the female in any dispute, or promotion (it's even documented and common knowledge about that particular office, which is why I no longer work there.)

Since this is a karate forum, what I want to know is how many man-hating women are taking karate so that they can beat up men. Not defend themselves mind you--and I do say that women have good reason to fear men physically--but for sadistic purposes. I would think not many, since women appear to have the mind-game mastered, copyrighted, and turned into an art form.

I figure if there are male sadists, there must be a few female ones out there lurking in the shadows!

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