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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 1999 3:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 875
Today's headline in the local rag, er newspaper was upsetting enough, to find that it was less than a mile away from my house was even worse. This quiet little seaside community just doesn't have things like this happen around here! Yea right - happens everywhere.

Anyway - here's what happened. Wife shows up at brother's apartment to escape the wrath of her recently estranged husband of 25 years. This is a "security" apartment building on the river (nice area) with mainly retirees for residents. They left instructions at the door not to let the estranged husband in. Nevertheless, at 8am yesterday morning, they answer the door and shots ring out. Brother gets shot in the hand and a bullet grazes his head. Sister in law gets shot in the chest and suffers damage to her spine. Estranged wife gets shot in the jaw. Through all this, the brother-in-law maintains enough composure to get his shotgun and kill the estranged husband. He's the only one dead so far, but the sister-in-law is in critical condition and the wife is in serious condition. Brother-in-law is doing satisfactory. The article also mentioned that the brother-in-law has survived three heart attacks in the last few years. (Must have had a heck of a survival mindset eh?)

So, this brings to mind a couple issues. In the face of constant gun-control restrictions being introduced into legislature, I wonder what would have happened if the brother-in-law didn't have that shotgun. I doubt the estranged husband would be without a gun - the article states he had many in his collection.

Also brings to mind the volatility of domestic violence issues. I doubt any type of mindset could have helped the wife in the face of her pistol - brandishing violent husband.

She sought out shelter from the violence. She left. The violence followed her and affected two more innocent people. To what extent can people protect themselves from this kind of thing? Refuse to provide shelter to a family member? Get restraining orders? (pretty useless from my experience and as also pointed out in deBecker's book Gift of Fear - often inflame the situation.)

Anyone have any ideas on the subject?

Peace,
Lori


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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 1999 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
Thank you for posting this. I am going to forward your message and url to all of the anti-gun people I know who seem to think that having a gun in the house is asking for trouble.

I don't think we can totally protect ourselves from the wackos out there. The best thing the wife could have done would have been not to marry this guy in the first place--but of course that's hindsight. It seems that we don't always know how nutso a person is until they've entered into our circle and let their guard down.

That post is a perfect example of why although I love to kid women about relationships, I nearly always get afraid for a woman I know when she goes through a major breakup. Believe me, if I ever have a daughter she's going to get a black belt in something and is going to go down to the gun range at least once, even if I have to sneak her down there. (My wife is not going to like me writing this!)

I think every woman needs to know how to shoot a gun, and should read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker. And, we non-lawbreakers need to stick together and stop acting like cattle, mooing around, waiting for the predators to pick us off.

Oh no: I think these forums are getting to me!!!!

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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 1999 12:01 am 
Lori,

And just the other day a distraught husband killed his three children and himself over one of the kids homework.

In this state, a gun must be kept under lock and key, hardly a place to keep it in an emergency.

If it wasn't a gun, Lori, it would have been a knife, baseball bat, chainsaw, or something else handy.

Domestic violence should not be attached to guns, but should be addressed in its own space.

Guns are dangerous and don't belong in the hands of many who have them. I've got a few stories, but this isn't story time.

Basically, out entire society is turning to ****, and probably will until there is another depression or major war.

Cecil, I hope every woman doesn't get a gun. You'll probably see all us males scurrying behind rocks and trees and under cars.

However, there is a place for guns in the hands of the private sector and although I don't own one, for now anyway, They are good things to have.



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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org


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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 1999 1:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Lori: We've always had guns in the house, mostly of the hunting variety, but recently I added a pair for pure self defense. I keep the handguns in a lockbox where I can access them quickly.

My son, 16 in 2 weeks, is an enthusiastic shooter. My wife is ready for her lessons on how to load, aim and fire. My daughter, 18 in 4 weeks, is ambivilent, but she is humoring me and reading 'The Gift of Fear' , which we discuss at the dinner table. My wife is planning to read the book as well.

Recently, the inner city criminals have crept deep into the Richmond suburbs, causing concern enough to acquire the handguns. My wife claims that she would use deadly force if a loved one was in danger, and I believe her. Mike Izumi states that criminals do not fear guns, but the person holding it. They had better fear Linda.

Rich


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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 1999 7:18 am 
Anthony.

I beg to differ with you. I believe the government would totally disarm the entire citizenry of all firearms if it had a chance. It's called TOTAL CONTROL, man, and they have it in other areas.

One by one, the American dream is going POOF!


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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 1999 6:31 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Lori wrote, "To what extent can people protect themselves from this kind of thing?"

In all reality, you can't. The guy/gal with the "problem" can show up tomorrow, next week or next decade. What you must do is decide beforehand what steps or actions you will take when that inevitable moment does occur and then follow through with complete and total conviction - easier said than done, unfortunately.


Rich wrote, "My wife claims that she would use deadly force if a loved one was in danger, and I believe her."

What is your wife's opinion about herself? Would she use that same deadly force if she were the one in danger? In many instances, we will do anything to prevent harm to one we care about but then turn around and say it would be impossible to use that same kind of force against someone who was assailing us!

In another forum it was brought out that the police have absolutely no legal requirement to provide protection for the individual, only to society in general! Morally, it may be a different story, but still, the cops can't be everywhere at once - and I don't want them to be.

So where does that leave the responsibility of safety for the individual?

Right - with the individual.

Moe Mensale


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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 1999 3:55 am 
There is certainly a lot of polarization. isn't there, Anthony; a keg waiting to blow.

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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org


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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 1999 1:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
"Cecil, I hope every woman doesn't get a gun. You'll probably see all us males scurrying behind rocks and trees and under cars."

Sorry Allen. What was I thinking????

Counterpoint: only the smart men would be hiding. The dumb ones would still be yelling, posturing and woofing, thinking that the woman won't shoot them.



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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 1999 11:31 pm 
There ya go Cecil. Heh, heh heh, heh. What you said reminds me of rat hunting. You turn out the car lights, be very quiet for a few minutes until it starts to get noisy again and the noise gets close. Turn the flashlight on that's taped under the .22 semi-auto and watch 'em run for their lives. Oops! Did I say rat hunting? I'd better get outa here before my own species gets upset....


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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 1999 1:06 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2424
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Lori:

I think your question centered around what a woman in this situation should do. Well, the first thing she should probably do if she has serious concerns about an ex's violent nature is to contact someone or a group in the area who consistently deal with that type of situation, and see how they handle it.

If there are serious fears about an ex's nature, I'm afraid my answer may be to hide better.

I think the person should do all they can do within their own belief and capabilty system to protect their kids, family and the people with whom they seek shelter.

Do not eschew any avenue of protection that the female can handle. Do not, if the fear is real, seek shelter in obvious places. Do notify the police , do get a restraining order, do get training in firearms, do find out who deals with this sit. more than me. Tell then to do what they have to do.

There is a woman in the South who does nothing but hide women running from rich and violent husbands. She pretty good at it and even ignores the Courts to protect her clients.

If there is no history of violence any explosion will come as a surprise anyway.

Find the ones who deal with it regularly.


My Nephew lost his temper and kicked the TV just before his wife left him. She sought a 209A (restraining order). My argument was to the Judge that he didn't shoot the TV or kick his wife, but the restraining order issued anyway.

I disagreed at the time. The police took all his weapons (that's the law here) and they ended up in MY safe. (I don't need any extras) My disagreement with the Judge was personal, 'cause I knew my Nephew wasn't going to actually hurt anyone in his family. However, the Judges 90% will purposely err on the side of caution and as public policy this is annoying, but understandable.

As a matter of Law Practice I seriously disagree with the "opening" guns of every divorce being requests for restraining orders when none is warranted. Nonetheless, that's not going to change.

Best

JOHN



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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 1999 1:09 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2424
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
PS to all:

If you have guns in Mass. and a divorce is on the horizon my advice to all is to be real sure things stay amicable if you wish to keep them.

I'm not a gun control guy, the opposite to some extent, just giving best advice I have.

JOHN

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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 1999 4:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 875
Hello John-san,

Interesting law about firearms being confiscated in the event of a restraining order! I am not an advocate of more gun control legislation either, however, that kind of law might have helped a friend of mine from getting shot! In an earlier thread I had discussed her situation - she was a co-worker of mine whose marriage was degenerating - one day she finally decided to quit fighting a losing battle and get out - she found out the same day that her husband was very-likely molesting her 7 year old daughter - she was out of the house that day and had a restraining order in her hand - which he was served with in 24 hours. That very night - he broke into her new residence, locked the kids in the bedroom, raped her and pistol-whipped her while the kids screamed from the bedroom to please not hurt mommy! Around 4 in the morning - after hours of pleading for their lives, she starts to fall asleep as they are seated on the couch - her head starts to lean over, and he takes the .357 and places it up to his temple while leaning his head close to hers - apparently trying to take them both out at the same time. His brains sprayed all over them both, but the bullet entered through her jaw, knocked out two teeth and lodged in the roof of her mouth. She lived, and has put her life back together, but it was a close call - the doctor in the emergency room told me when I went to see her a couple hours after it happened (bullet still lodged) that a fraction of an inch difference in angle of entry and the bullet would have entered her brain and killed her.

Moral of the story? Much like deBecker states in his book: Restraining orders often aren't worth the paper they are printed on and may even serve to inflame the violence. At the time my friend left - she had not experienced ANY violence that would have led her to believe he would be capable of such an act. She knew he was emotional and off-the-wall, but didn't have so much as a parking ticket. You never can tell what will be someone's "trigger."

Maybe a law that would have confiscated his weapons after the restraining order would have averted that. But then again, maybe it wouldn't. Where there is a will, there is a way - and acquisition of firearms is all too easy in some circles. (Without the benefit of registration etc.)

You can not let your guard down for a minute.

Peace,
Lori


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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 1999 2:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2424
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Lori San:

I am not familiar with the thread of opinions that debunk restraining orders and indicate that they may inflame the situation.

It's standard here.

I guess my feeling is that you "take every step" if you are actually afraid.

I would be inflamed if someone took out a restraining order on me, I will admit.

Your story is horrifying. Obviously there are many times when the violent behaviour is going to be a surprise.

Even F-117's get shot down when "the Golden BB" strikes. Is this an argument against stealth technology? No.

I am not against "Gun ControL" . It should be more uniform from state to state. I have had to live with pretty strict gun laws all my life. Why should it be easier for others?
(The selfish dude argument)

Do I want the government to take J.D.'s or Rich's guns. No way.

My advice to seek out groups that handle domestic violence when some warning bells ring stands.

However, this would not have helped the people in your scenario.

JOHN

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 Post subject: Domestic Violence & Guns
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 1999 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 875
It would be nice if weapons regulations were more uniform from state to state - seems to be a daunting prospect however. And I am somewhat leary of all-encompassing Federal regulations.

For interesting discussion on the use of restraining orders, check out Gavin DeBecker's Gift of Fear - in his extensive experience he states that they often serve to further inflame the situation, often providing the catalyst for more serious violence.

At the heart of the matter is an issue Moe-san brought up in the "family mindset" thread. Women often will fight like the devil themself to protect their children or loved ones (I've referred to it previously as the "mother bear" instinct) but do not feel this same confidence with regard to their own self protection. I have seen and known women with successful professional careers, and other seemingly "together" aspects of their lives, caught up in a relationship that treats them as a "possession" as J.D. mentions above. Why do they stay as long as they do? Why don't they just get out and rely on themselves not only financially but emotionally? It is very hard to understand why any woman would turn over her paycheck to her husband and allow a continuous demeaning of her self-worth in an abusive situtation - verbally or physically. The women I have known in these situations have so much to offer, many gifts that make them special and valuable people, but there is something that holds them back from believing it. What can be done to foster this sense of self-worth? Do women become victims of a society mindset that keeps them from believing in themselves? Does it begin as children?

I do not know. I do know that I have seen women and girls in my dojo grow in self-confidence and self-esteem the longer they study the martial arts. A percentage of women who choose to study karate may have been abused in the past but have made an active choice to do something to change that. What about the women who haven't made that kind of choice yet? How to reach them?

Any ideas?

Peace,
Lori


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