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Lori Sensei,

Rich San brought up an interesting point from from Peyton Quinns book about a favorite technique. Do you have a favorite that you teach specificaly to your Female populace?

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Evan Pantazi
http://www.erols.com/kyusho

Hi Evan-san,

Thanks for the question. Actually, there is a technique that is pretty well-received in the self-defense classes. It's a take-off from Seisan Bunkai.

We pratice putting together three separate drills, with the idea of implementing a complementary final move only in real-life practice.

1) Breaking "bear-hug" type holds
2) Groin Strikes
3) Dropping the weight by collapsing to a squatting position

Disclaimer As I state below, I am NOT an advocate for groin-strikes as the most practical self-defense application for women - in fact I discourage them. This IS however a potentially effective exercise.

In this exercise we practice breaking "bear-hug" type attacks from the rear, like the groin strike application from seisan bunkai. First, we work on dropping the weight by bending the knees and simultaneously forcing the arms out from the side while moving to the left or right to help break the hold. We use a cup so that we can practice actually hitting the groin area. (Surprising how quickly aim improves after a few tries!) We also practice attacks from the front (grabs) with groin strike applications. But we don't stop there - because I do emphasize that groin strikes are NOT the best self-defense move! (Missing target, not hitting hard enough, or even if the attacker is under the influence of something will make the strike less effective, if at all!) But in this application, the strike is only part of the move.

The "coup de gras" involves "collapsing" your knees and letting your weight drop to the ground, while keeping your feet under you. Sort of moving to a squatting position but very quickly and deliberately so that your weight and center of gravity go as low as possible as quickly as possible. This collapsing happens AFTER the groin strike, and while maintaing a strong grip on the target, thus using the intended victim's full weight to inflict some serious pain in a sensitive area.

When we describe this move in class, any males in the vicinity usually cringe... somehow I think it would have an effect on even a scum-sucking dregs of society coked (or other drug) up cro-mangnon type (sorry Mike-san - can't remember that great phrase you came up with some posts back!).

Would like to hear feedback and/or criticisms of this one from any and all. Evan-san, I especially welcome your expertise on any kyusho aspects that could be applied here.

Thanks again for the topic!

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Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu


[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 04-26-99).]

Lori San,

For a bear hug we also use the dropping weight idea after tightening and then quickly relaxing the shoulders and dropping out from under. But at the same time we use a 2 way arm action as well that helps this (Beginning of Nai Han Chi - Nidan) and we drop into a twisted stance adding more torque. The technique then untwists surfacing behind the opponents arm (the side depends on how you were put into the grab), for a strike to TW-12 (Tricep Strike) with a follow to TW-17 (Hammer Strike).

My favorite technique for women is still a slap in the ear with a soft or cupped hand. I saw this used over 15 years ago at a bar in one of Massachusetts more interesting towns, (Lynn for those up north here), and this little 5' (if) lady took out a huge muscle bound bouncer who wouldn't accept her ID and tried to usher her out. He never saw it comming but he dropped faster than I have ever seen anyone drop. I don't know if she even intended it that way or if she was just trying to slap his face, but man that picture is still in my head 19 years later.

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Evan Pantazi
http://www.erols.com/kyusho

"My favorite technique for women is still a slap in the ear with a soft or cupped hand...."

I learned that as a kid. We called it the Thunderclap, where you smack both ears with each hand instead of a single palm to one ear. I had that done on me in the locker room after gym class. It worked. Needless to say the next time the dude tried it I ducked, shoved him in the corner and smacked him over the head with the hard edge of a Bible. Ah, the joys of highschool (one reason why I was happy to graduate).

Another good technique I heard for women came from a woman: she told me she found an ex cheating. He was a big body builder. He tried to pull the big bad man routine on the little woman and she punched him in the Adam's apple. She has small hands. I was very nice to her ever since she told me that story.

Question (of course): why the discouragement of the groin strike?

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net

Did someone mention something about groin strikes? Sometimes they are not effective...

I got struck in the cupless groin once doing FMA stick-fighting free-sparring. I kept going without realizing I had been hit although I was 'slightly' in the discomfort zone after the match. Only after watching the videotape did I realize that I had gotten nailed.

The adrenelin was pumping during the match because it was the first time I sparred using a baston. Another thing about stick fighting, is that some new stick-fighters have a tendency to reach for, and try to grab, a fast moving stick with the live hand. THAT hurts. We need a stick-fighting forum, or at least a weapons forum.
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 04-28-99).]

Groin as a target.
Most women I have sparred with have kicked me in the groin with devastating results, to me. After much analysis I determined that the area is often left open because it is usually not a target for the men I spar with. Speculating on why, I concluded that it is such a painful hit (which most men know) that they will not do it to each other at the club level sparring classes. Sort of like when you may be talking to Vinny about how your kids are doing, then spar with him, he leaves an opening to the head, Do you take his head off? No, of course not, this is your friend. More recently I have started to do the "Face Rake" of Killer Koulski which shows the head is in too close and open.

Just a caution that the groin is also a devastataing area for a hit to women. Many years ago, as most beginners do,I fell into the trap of overusing the 4th move in Seisan for a defense (hands one on top of the other, up to break a hold or grab, double shoulder or arm grab, pull down and a knee strike). I believe JD used this at the Hut recently, at a more sophisticated level of course. A female friend jumped at me with a mock strangle in a bar. My response was to defensively go into that 4th move, so she hit her groin or pelvic? bone on my shoe and went down like a rock. It was such a soft hit I thought this was a joke. After several seconds and feeling vey embarrased and sorry for her I picked her up. She was still out of it and in pain for perhaps twenty minutes.

The moral of this post, which I tried to get into about a kilobyte ago, is the caution about using the groin as a target even with a cup on, both male or female.

Doctor X,

Nope, my man, that was a typo and a brain fart. A combination of writing too fast while trying to rush back to work!

You did give me a good laugh by pointing that out, though!!!!!

I ran into one of my kohais on the train this morning. It was his first tournament this weekend, and he was amazed at how hard the women were going at each other in the black belt matches. Believe it or not, there were a couple of instances of busted lips from the FEMALE competitors fighting each other. He also felt like they fought with a lot more intent in there blows!

Makes me hope that they never have full contact coed boxing. Although I don't like hitting a woman, I wouldn't want to be hit by one who is my size either!!!!

Cecil

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net

To finish off my above post, I have also been knocked down unable to move by a strike to the groin in addition to continuing through as I mentioned above.

You never know how things are going to effect you; lots of variables.

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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org

Evan-san:
I forgot to mention that we add the twisting motion to help break the bear-hug - thanks for pointing it out! Could you please elaborate on how you go from breaking the hold to hitting the points you mention?

JD-san:
Grabbing and ripping at the end of a groin strike... nice description. I think I'll have to pass that on in my classes. As for that serpent thing of yours - I'm not even going to go there! Though in one self-defense seminar I attended years ago, the instructor mentioned one technique for the intended female victim to try would be a complete switch from resistance to a hot and heavy - "ooh baby you turn me on" kind of response - get the guy's defenses down by switching tacks and them maneuver into position for a more devastating strike. One in specific he mentioned was to bring up both hands and stroke/caress the attacker on the side of the head or face - when the female's hands reach about temple level, brace the hands on the side of the head and dig the thumbs into the inside of the eye sockets by the nose - if done hard enough the eyeballs will pop right out of their sockets - painful, and it's hard to chase someone when you can't see them.

Anthony-san:
I'll have to check out that video again - there certainly is a lot to be said for practicing rolling the fingers into a strong fist - I've been emphasizing that a lot lately - especially to the newer students who are just getting the hang of making a proper fist.

Cecil-san:
I like that "thunder-clap" technique also! It is another staple of the "self-defense" class - practiced again as a take-off from seisan bunkai - instead of the double temple strike we practice clapping both ears with cupped hands - hopefully to blow out the eardrums - even if the agressor is drugged up he'll have a harder time continuing the attack with blown out eardrums. It's not too hard of a technique either - if you can condition yourself to execute it during a choke hold instead of the automatic reflex of grabbing and pulling at the choking hands. If your hands are free - go for it!

The punch to the throat is excellent as well - especially for women. I teach that our fists will naturally clench under stress, even if we know that open hand strikes are more devastating - so a very simple and effective move would be a punch to the throat. Forget the face and body, (I'm talking to women remember - coming from the perspective of less body mass, less conditioning and less upper body strength than their potential attacker) just "go for the throat." Even a less powerful punch from a female can have a devastating effect in that area if the opportunity presents itself.

Groin shots:
The answer as to why I don't recommend groin shots as one of the best self-defense techniques for women has multiple parts.
1) As JD-san mentioned, guys will expect it and will reflexively cover themselves or keep out of range until the victim is fully subdued.
2) If the attacker is on an adrenalin rush, chemical cocktail or mind altering drugs, the effect will be minimized. Check Allen-san's post above for his description of getting hit in the groin and not realizing it till later.
3) Again, related to the chemical effects on the attacker from primal emotion, rage, or drugs, a strike to the groin may enrage him further if it does not incapacitate him. As deBecker says: Predators want victims not adversaries. So in my mind, if the strike will not serve to disable or destroy, then leave it out.

There are other reasons why groin strikes are not the weapon of choice in a self-defense arsenal - I believe Robb-san had some good comments about that in a prior thread dealing with women's self defense classes.

This is not to say that a groin strike cannot be effective, especially if the grabbing and twisting motion is added to it. In this case it could very well take on the devastating effects needed in a serious situation.

Women can also be injured by groin shots - no doubt. Just ask any girl who has come to a sudden stop on a men's bicycle and slid off the seat. Ouch. Though it may not have the same effect as on a male, there is no doubt that serious pain can be inflicted, but the location and type of impact has a lot to do with it. I've suffered a couple toe kicks below the navel but not all the way down to the groin that were exceedingly painful. That is a very difficult area to condition and not to mention the organs within probably don't need that type of abuse.

Mike-san:
Very good point about creating openings by sparring with friends. I've learned I leave my head open too much; a habit I may very well have developed by sparring with friends who naturally won't hit me in the head. I've been sparring with a kung-fu friend the last couple of months - and he has the practice of a modified slap on the side of the head whenever he can get a clear head shot. It isn't a gentle slap either - I've had my bell rung a few times - it wasn't bad enough to keep me from continuing - but it did hurt enough for me to learn really quick that I left my head open WAY too much. Especially after 4 or 5 strong slaps! My sensei has also used controlled strikes nearing the face - but this is only good for people with an incredible amount of control - I wouldn't let a green belt try it. But the head slaps seem to be very instructional.

Women and co-ed (or not) sparring:
I still believe that women should be given the opportunity to fight coed if they really want to. I would not advocate getting rid of the female only divisions, but I would add a co-ed division for any takers. I think we could all learn a few things from a division like that.

Lot's of good input everyone. Thanks!

Peace,
Lori

Lori San,

You asked...
Evan-san:
Could you please elaborate on how you go from breaking the hold to hitting the points you mention?

As you drop out by twisting you now uncoil back to Horse stance behind the arm to strike TW-12 and into the TW-17.


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Evan Pantazi
http://www.erols.com/kyusho

All,

Interesting thread and many good points to ponder and use.

Due to my height and size, I have always been paired with guys and have had my share of punches to the head and groin. The temple and jaw shots were the worst. I've been knocked out once (temple hit as a black belt)and cracked two teeth as a brown belt (yes we use gloves). Like Lori, it's taught me my vulnerabilities and weaknesses. For my Shodan test years ago, the main comment from the board was "try not to get hit so much." Like the bunny, I just took the hits and kept on coming.

I have had the fortune to work with and being paired with guys who pushed me to my limit and then a little beyond. I've even managed to get a few shots my own. At each BB test I was paired with a higher ranking BB ... and that was good for me and them as well. Each test showed me where I improved and what I still need to work on.

Techniques I do like include the groin strike (though, thanks for sharing Lori, Allen,JD of problems with this technique). During a particularly spirited SS bunkai I actually lifted one guy up and hoisted him backwards during a rush of spirit, adrenaline and chi. I, too, do a whipping motion and drop to get out of a bear hug. I like the elbow strike at the beginning.

We also practice different combinations of kicking/punching. Not as a pre-arranged drill, but as in.. One attack ... two or three counters. Three - four attacks, look for the opening and execute two or three counters back.... etc.

For Self Defense -- do the unexpected. Sound can stun some attackers (try a sharp kiai or roar in the dojo once and see if it stops someone dead in their tracks in bunkai or sparring ... you can only do this once-- if they're any good)... so can doing something alien or weird. I had a friend who was going to be attacked on a deserted beach. She feigned an epileptic fit, drooled and went crazy with weird noises. Her attacker fled.

The point is to not freeze but do something.

Jackie

[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited 05-01-99).]