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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 1999 6:28 pm 
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A nice sexist topic surfaced on the Realities Forum - since it has a decidedly feminine subject matter (and since I've been looking for some good threads for this forum) I decided to raise the issue here. Following is quoted from MFH:

<blockquote>Dear Ms. Loftus & Ms. Olsen,
I've been doing a bit of minor tail-pulling on Van's forum on the Coffee Shop Showdown topic. I've maneuvered it to the point of bringing you into it, but am a tad concerned about folks getting carried away and wouldn't mind just dropping the topic. So, I thought it might be fun if you're inclined to participate, but wanted you to know where I'm coming from.

My partner in life, female, has spent the past several years helping me notice some of the sexism in the culture. My objective is to make a point about what I consider "olde-vorld behaviors," fighting in particular. As a "man's" activity it's something we all *do*!! And it's a matter of pride to be good at it!! *Especially* when defending one's spouse!!! I shudder to think how the poor "inept" fares psychologically when he fails. The whole thing seems tacitly bizarre!!! This is contemporary cul'chur!! Although this is outside Van's area, it does have to do with mindset.

Hope you can enjoy,

MFH - AKA: Der Hermanator
</blockquote>


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 1999 9:48 pm 
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The message that continues to be incredibly lost here is that , as Tracy sensei points out , you fight out of self respect , out of who you really are as opposed to the 'defense' of the woman who may not need defending after all ! Sexism has nothing to do with it !

" fifty years ago young people were made to understand around the dinner table that strife was part of life and that they might well encounter it , and that it would then be their duty to face it without blinking , ready willing to use force quickly and expertly if necessary . Boys were taught to shoot , use their hands , and girls were taught to expect that in their men . " { Jeff Cooper }

Today a certain kind of women will use the B S*** talk of sexism in an attempt to emasculate men and some [ the weak ones] will fall into the trap easily enough !

And it produces the following kind of wimp : " Newscast reported that an 11 year old was home alone when two men broke in . Unable to escape , the boy used his .22 rifle to shoot the intruders ! Following the news a talk show aired and a caller demanded " What was the boy doing with a gun " ? He was outraged at the boy killing the criminal but silent about their crime ! He could not distinguish cause from effect , criminal from victim or aggression from self defense "

In my home town in the southern part of Italy , if your wife /girl gets dumped on and you stand around while she successfully defends herself , you will be spit upon by the passing bystanders !



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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 1999 10:52 pm 
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Van-san,

Thought provoking comments! I've aired my views here before regarding the so-called "women's movement" and how we as women have shot ourselves in the proverbial foot with demands that on the one hand may be emasculating to men - but on the other hand a denial of our own femininity - a gift that is denied in the endless quest for equality. As I've also said here - and one of the very reasons for this forum - women ARE different - and no amount of kotikitae or weight training is going to make us the "same" as our male karateka counterparts! Even though for many years - (and probably still now to some extent) I tried very hard to "keep up" with the males in my dojo - I now try to develop and cultivate the aspects of my gender that become an asset to my karate study - trying to be a man in a man's world is not only difficult - it's impossible.

As for the defense issue - please expand on your comments if you don't mind!

Given the strange culture (or lack thereof) we have in this country - what do you recommend women do in regards to this issue? For myself - if I am in a situation - with my man by my side - which involves an escalating violent situation - I have no qualms about letting him defend my honor - even if I am perfectly capable of handling it myself. If my man respects me - he will not allow others to perform acts of violence or disrespect upon my person and stand by - I know this about my man - and frankly - wouldn't be involved with someone who would react any differently. If he needed my help - multiple assailants or what have you - I have no problem with jumping in. I hope that he wouldn't. On my own however, I will certainly take any action necessary. I've found an elbow to be a nice deterrent to surreptitious gropes or graps (much like Carol in This world and then the fireworks) and would hope that I would take it as far as necessary.

How do other women feel about this issue? Content to stand by and let their man handle things? At what point do you decide to act/react? Is it possible to decide a course of action before the offense is taken? Does your emotional reaction dictate how you are going to handle it? You must know somewhere within whether you prefer to slaughter a scum-sucking nipple tweaker on your own or let your man do it for you. Or will you help him do it?

Gentlemen? Are you content to let your woman handle assaults upon her person? Is there a line that must be crossed before you get involved? What is it? Is a woman less than feminine if she handles herself when you are around?

Could get interesting - please don't hesitate to add your comments. You don't have to agree with me or with Van-san in order to post - this topic is worthy of discussion and all views are welcome - even those that don't agree with my own!

Peace,
Lori


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 1999 3:51 am 
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Lori Chan ,

I am in total agreement with you and J.D. on this !

< Given the strange culture (or lack thereof) we have in this country -
what do you recommend women do in regards to this issue? >

It depends ! Always think tactical first i.e., in spite of the affront, who are you about to take on and what are the chances of surviving ! Easier said than done , I know , but it must be programmed ! You must program tactical flight as well as fight !

Program your boundaries ; what is worth fighting for and what isn't ; always ignore verbal taunts and walk away !

If your man is a hothead macho man , has a big smart mouth and an uncouth behavior he will get you in trouble sooner or later and you must educate him and change his ways !

Always remember that if your man triggers action it is usually because his self respect is on the line as well as yours and your safety ; If both of you are martial artists , then you can agree before hand under which situations you would fight so as to remove the uncertainty and pressures of not living up to each other's expectations !

Work out some scenarios so as to trigger as a team if need be, totally surprising the punks who would not expect a determined female response !

Lori , the elbow a la 'fireworks' is an excellent surprise attack always from the inside out , Harder to see and block ; straight hammer down , ice pick style , on the bridge of the nose is devastating with explosive power [ practice your power katas ] and palm heel thrust to the nose full power are the premier techniques at close range !

J.D. , best way to get a woman off your woman is to always go for her hair and yank her down to the ground hard using the principle of the pulling power blocks I worked with you on at the torture chamber ! A couple of those slams and I will guarantee you she will be happy to remain on the ground if she is still conscious ! Never hit a woman in the body if you can help it ! If she attacks you , spin her around grab the hair and- Wham - to the ground as many times as it takes , usually once with explosive lock will leave her stunned ! Be sure to cushion her fall with your hand ! It is the violent shaking that will paralyze her ! The neck will not break !


------------------
Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 05-18-99).]


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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 1999 3:08 pm 
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Kind of an interesting topic. All couples should discuss this sort of thing, and know what their expectations of each other are. I would like to say, then there are no suprises, but as Van points out so often and correctly, you never know how it feels or what you are going to do until you are smack in the middle of it.

My husband and I know that if someone bothers him, he will deal with it, and if someone bothers me I will deal with it. That is our understanding, and we both know that the other would be there for backup. He does not study any martial art, but he is quick and strong, an athlete.

As I see it, to think that he would in any way be emasculating himself by allowing me to respond myself would be laughable. We are proud of each others strengths, and respect is all important. What never fails to amuse me is the type of women he finds attractive. Strong women! It is a man who is sure and strong with his masculinity who appreciates a strong woman, and takes pride in her strength as well as his own.

How does it fit in that I study "self defense" and he doesn't? I would never for a moment presume to defend him if he didn't need it(uneven odds, etc). I do believe that mindset is all important, and his mind is set that he would do whatever necessary to defend himself(or me) and so is mine.

Natalie


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 1999 12:38 pm 
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Natalie,

Thanks for articulating. I couldn't seem to get it across.

MFH


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 1999 4:54 am 
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Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Lori Sensei et al.:

My problem with this question is the idea that handling these situations requires some physical act. As a young karate student I had the honor of training with several seniors of various styles who all shared the same view, fighting was the absolute last resort. When a beligerent individual confronted one of the toughest and best karate men I have ever had the privilege of training with, he apologized to the irate individual, and consoled him until the person retired from our presence.

Funakoshi, C.W. Nichol, Richard Kim, all describe similar types of confrontations, were the person with training displays humility and compassion even in the face of total buttheads who probably deserve a pounding. While we can't always avoid physical confrontation, (yes, I have had to fight, and it has validated every kata I have ever done) it seems to me that what we train for is the ability to control our own egos to point that confrontation is a regrettable outcome.

As for the women's movement, three cheers. It just hasn't gone far enough. When issues of pay, gender bias in the workplace, unequal funding of education and athletics are all just memories, then perhaps it will be time for the women's movement to pack it in. Until then, when we have resolved issues of dead beat dads, spousal abuse, and sexual oppression, I think we need an active women's movement in this country. (OK, so maybe I shouldn't have taught those six years at the YWCA...)
Peace
Robb in Sacramento


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 1999 4:43 pm 
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Hi Robb ,

Let it be clear at the outset that I do not advocate violent response or even verbal lashings in most circumstances ; avoidance , especially when tactically sound is the best defense !

However , lets remember this " We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves" { Eric Hoffer in < the passionate state of mind >}

You wrote < My problem with this question is the idea that handling these
situations requires some physical act. It seems to me that what we train for is the ability to control our own egos >

Again , you will find a huge difference between ego and self respect ; a distinction lost on most pacifists or lotus eaters ! In lots of cases where men and or women walk away from insulting behavior , unless they can rationalize the submission to tactical advantage , they are usually scarred for life as evidenced by my presently handling of a fair number of those cases / paying for psychiatric counseling with insurance dollars !

Denying our human nature is a colossal mistake perpetuated by the "teachings" of the " lineage" senseis which do not hold up , for the most part under modern times !

Such short circuiting of human nature is compounded by the message of extreme feminism , to wit < If men could menstruate …clearly menstruation would become an enviable boast _ worthy masculine event : men would brag how long and how much …sanitary supplies would be federally funded and free > { Gloria Steinem }

Or …to wit < You might consider the idea of tasting your own menstrual blood _if it makes you sick , you've a long way to go baby > { Germain Greer }

Then these " women" go into shock when they come face to face with < Every modern male has , lying at the bottom of his psyche , a large primitive being covered with hair down to his feet . > { Robert Bly }

Submissive behavior can be extremely tricky on the brain ; there is a natural selective process at work no matter how 'tough ' a karate man you think you are , which no 'karate ' dogma will ever change !

Some people are naturally submissive , more so women than men ! And doing the human equivalent of the baboon offering his buttocks to the aggressor is quite likely to only make your attacker more sure of himself , and convince him that he's safe to go ahead and violate you or your wife/fiancee ! { I have such a case in litigation presently }

" An obscene insult to one's wife or child , a glob of spit on one's person or a cigarette butt flicked into the face ; a snotty challenge of " what the f *** you gonna do about it , f*** face by some punk blocking the sidewalk , can trigger the blackest , deadliest rage in a typical man especially if it occurs in front of his family " { Mas Ayoob} ……. I am not advocating a violent response here if you can safely avoid it , but think of your state of mind for the next few weeks or years ! Are you sure your child or wife will still respect you ? They still may , but will you really believe it ? So why is it that lots of these people end up on the shrink's couch ??

What would your " tough karate master instructor " have really done in the case of the " nipple squeeze and spit " above ? Why don't you tell us the particulars of the event he was able to console his tormentor instead of cleaning his clock !

And would you mind telling us what was it that made you fight validating your katas ? We might all learn something here !

Peace ,


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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 1999 6:33 pm 
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I don't care what crap the woman may tell you, you better believe that you had better jump to her defense should something happen if you know what is good for you.

I don't care what she says, I believe that on a primal level you will be automatically lowered in her eyes. Even if there are five of them and only one of you, if you don't at least make some type of protective gesture on your part, (like pulling her closer to you and shooting the guys a look while you reassure her you will protect her) if you try to ignore it or whatever, she will think that you are a wimp and devalue you accordingly. It is a part of our animal selves that does exist.

I am a big advocate of non-violence and turn the other cheek. I really hate fighting and try to avoid it. But if it means harm to those I love who are weaker than I am then I have to react--it's part of my duty as a husband/father/brother/grandson/friend. It's part of my duty as a MAN. Manhood--real manhood, seems to be under assault these days. It's wrong to teach someone to use a gun for SELF DEFENSE or gathering food (the only reason for hunting in my opinion--if you kill it, eat it, you can kill it, but don't let it go to waste) even though we know criminals don't care about civility. It's supposed to be wrong to hit someone even if they are trying to choke you. We are supposed to use our martial training to not hurt someone according to the opinions of some who don't realize that unless you GROSSLY outclass someone in the fighting department you are going to get hit in an altercation.

My wife told me when we started seeing each other I never had or have to fight to defend her. Yet, ask her how she felt the time I woofed on two guys who were hassling her. She said she felt protected. And she changed her opinion about it since then.

To quote an old Public Enemy song "Don't Believe the Hype". Your woman wants you to protect her. If she doesn't, she is either insane, depressed, or is one of those types that will hand someone her pocketbook before she punches, kicks, and scratches her attackers until one of them starts screaming (which I've seen happen, and man was it funny, even the cops laughed)

Cecil
Nuff said.

------------------
Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 1999 7:36 pm 
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What's all this talk about psychiatrists by that venerable closet peacenik, Van Canna? And to mention Robert Bly's hairy guy on the Women's forum, of all places!

This is an interesting thread. Actually enough threads here to weave a small tapestry. Every post has a valid point. I thought most about Van's. I agree we set ourselves up for conflict if we act submissively out of fear, rather than for strategic advantage. Robb's mentor, I believe, saw the advantage in disarming his aggressor emotionally, simultaneously teaching his students. (Compare the Jedi knight technique of mental suggestion: "my credit is good" with a consoling wave of the hand.) Robb writes about training the ego to consider violence an undesirable outcome. I agree with that too, as I'm sure Van would.

Undesirable, but less so that wholesale loss of personal power, "face", dignity, call it what you will.

I also agree with Van that defense of a woman doesn't have to be a man vs woman or sexist concept. It's a SELF we are either mindfully building or mindlessly dismantling. And brother, you are so right about the psychiatrists' offices being busy with people who are suffering with SELF disorders. This point is not lost on meditation instructors, gurus, and therapists, who write that the conflicted self can have a very difficult experience with contemplation. What I mean is, some men have "as-if" personalities, picturing themselves in way designed to please others, but at significant variance with underlying "real" character.

In summary, I see no trace of sexism in my wanting to defend the safety and honor of my spouse, no more than "age-ism" enters into my defense of parents or children. The argument that we should deny our inherent response to egregious aggression in the name of humility or compassion may not consider the long-term psychological and relationship costs. I do believe in the MINDFUL strategic use of humility, not the emotional exsanguination of humiliation. To the outside observer, even skillful deflection of conflict may appear to be humiliation. But the most important "observer" as Van pointed out, is in the depths of the man himself.

Peas,
Michael

[This message has been edited by Knight (edited 05-25-99).]


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 1999 12:53 am 
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Mike -san ,

Thanks for the insight ! I was secretly hoping to flush DR Michael Knight [ psychiatrist] to the fore ! You did not disappoint me !

Robert Bly's " hairy man" always strikes irrational fears in warrior feminists with infelicitous wombs ! Like to see a full contact VALE TUDO match between quiet unassuming individuals { like street mauler Josh Wiseman } and a team of militant feminist deep into Uechi supremacy ! Bet you next year tournament be a sell out !

You're da man !

Smile

------------------
Van Canna


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 1999 2:47 am 
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Van-san,

You are most wicked in the art of repartee. I keep a dictionary close by to decipher keen new words offered by you and the diabolical Dr. X. "Unfelicitous wombs"? God, have you been listening to Imus in the morning? I say again: wicked!

So, Lex Luthor of Uechi, you have decided to reveal my alter ego! How will Lori Lane -- uh, Lori-chan -- ever deal with this shocking other side of the coin? Mild mannered Michael is a... a... Bizarro shrink!

(ed note: "Bizarro" is the "dark side" of Superman in the DC Comics series. Michael has apparently elected to trade his "as-if" knightly self for its shadow, an unlikely cross of the mythic characters, Black Knight and Percival, "the perfect fool.")

(Feminist ed. note: Don't forget the anima, Michael's feminine side, often split off and projected onto unsuspecting others. His anima craves the protection of Van, Dr. X, Gary Koury, GEM, Steven Perry, and God knows who else. His anima will, of course, seduce them in a way we women would consider "masculine wiles." "You da man" indeed, Mike. Call 1-888-BIG-BOYS.)

(Dr. X. ed. note: I'm flattered by imitation.)

Yours in utter seriousness,
Michael


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 1999 4:20 am 
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er... Michael-san, if that was your "feminine side" speaking at sign-off - shouldn't it have been spelled "yours in udder seriousness?"

Got milk?


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 1999 4:38 am 
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Dear " Anima bizzarro" ,

On the coattails of your brilliant observation on seduction by male duality :

From : A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court Chapter XVI: Morgan Le Fay < As we approached each other, I saw that he wore a plumed helmet, and seemed to be otherwise clothed in steel, but bore a curious addition also-a stiff square garment like a herald's tabard. However, I had to smile at my own forgetfulness when I got nearer and read this sign on his tabard:

"Persimmons's Soap-All the Prime-Donne Use It."



And so we have " phallic aggression " as the norm of masculinity in modern society upon the cry of women : < What is most beautiful in virile men is something feminine ; what is most beautiful in feminine women is something masculine > { Susan Sontag }

And : < Masculinity is not something given to you , but something you gain . And you gain it by winning small battles with honor > { Norman Mailer }

Somebody has to stand up for wimps !


I like your style DR Knight !




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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 1999 5:40 am 
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Mr. Canna:

OUCH!!! Was that an entree of cynicism garnished with sarcasm, or the other way around. I am sure my fried will appreciate that you have promoted him to karate master though. Funakoshi attributed his resort to the use of the physical aspects of karate to his youth, he was in his eighties. C.W. Nichol speaks of watching a beligerent person subdued with a yell and compassion. As for my friend, he used respect and compassion as a calming drug on a would be attacker. Peace, is often the most difficult road, as Christ, Gandhi and King all discovered. Somehow, I don't think any of them felt either lessened or submisive by pursuing the path of peace.

As for fighting validating the kata, I did not fight to validate the kata. Violence is sometimes thrust upon us. While it is regrettable that I lacked the skill to confront it without resort to physical force, I take solace in knowing that karate training protected me. While some of the techniques of the kata seem odd, (Nobody would ever attack like that) the truth is people do attack much the way the kata predict. Perhaps there is something to natural selection. Perhaps those who went before us really knew what they were doing.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento


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