The eyes have it

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Lori
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The eyes have it

Post by Lori »

Eye contact.

The "uechi-glare" can be a deterrent to a confrontation. Of course I can offer no proof of this other than a general feeling of an approaching confrontation that was averted with a steady no-nonsense look. However, I feel that sometimes confrontation can be avoided by NOT making eye contact. In some cultures, eye contact is synonymous with invitation. As a teenager in South America, I NEVER made eye contact when walking the streets - to do so would have initiated all kinds of unwelcome advances! Occasionally, vestiges of this cultural influence come back to me and I pose the question here - what conditions do you consider eye contact and the "uechi-glare" appropriate? And do you think that avoiding eye contact has any merit in this country?

Peace,
Lori
Allen M.

The eyes have it

Post by Allen M. »

Avoid eye contact before the interview. When the interview starts, avoid avoiding eye contact.

Also... For the types that Van frequently talks about, eye contact may not mean squat because their intent to go through you has already been established by them long before the interview.

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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RACastanet
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The eyes have it

Post by RACastanet »

Lori: I always try to make eye contact with people I'm conversing with. Like JD, if I get into deep thought or need to do mental research I look up and away at a mental scratch pad and read notes etc. My brain is exactly like Windows 95..... and I actually mentally open folders or books and can visualize or read the contents. After I 'find' what I am looking for I make eye contact again. I usually let people know that I'm accessing data if I'm at it for awhile so they don't think I'm looking for the 'mother ship'.

Sometimes when walking down the street I play an eye contact game and make contact with everyone walking my way. I'd say 90% quickly look away but there are others who lock right on - males and females.

We have a few ladies in our club with large brown eyes and large pupils that lock on when we are having a discussion. I must say I find that really alluring. In a guy I find it respectful and showing interest.

Occasionally I meet someone who looks at me but appears 'at the beach'. I wonder if that is mushin or just 'vacuum'.

I generally feel uncomfortable with someone who never makes eye contact.

Rich
Lori
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Post by Lori »

Interesting replies! It seems that the subject can get quite a bit more complex that what I considered when posting initially. My original question was aimed more toward the casual encounter or a potential predator. Allen-san's reply sounds good in avoiding eye contact up to the interview - but sometimes, I tend to believe that eye contact ahead of time may actually avoid an interview. I play a similar game to Rich-san's - when I'm running along the beach, I experiment with eye contact with people coming in the opposite direction. Sometimes I will avoid it, sometimes I force it in a friendly way with a cheery "good morning", sometimes I adopt a stony expressionless gaze and use eye contact to let the person/people know I've seen them. But never do I practice avoiding NOTICING the people I pass - whether I make eye contact or not - step two of the game is trying to remember as much of a physical description as possible from the passing glance - height, weight, eyes, clothing, etc.

Eye contact with friends and acquaintances is certainly different than with strangers. What I'm looking for here, is insights about women making eye contact with men they do not know. Do you feel that eye contact invites advances or discourages them? Especially when dealing with a predator type? Predators want victims, not adversaries (according to DeBecker) so would not eye contact be indicative of the intended victim's "mindset" not to submit? Or is it more of a challenge to make eye contact? Certainly body language also comes into play, eye contact with a scared expression is much different from a determined "uechi-glare." So what is the best course for women to adopt when dealing with strangers and being "bumped" by circling sharks?

Peace,
Lori
Allen M.

The eyes have it

Post by Allen M. »

Hello Lori,

I’m not considering friendly eye contact, which is something entirely different.

In a bar or on the street, man-to-man eye contact with strangers often starts the interview. If you are looking for a fight, say in a bar or a nightclub, you begin the interview process by singling someone out and start the routine, hoping to illicit eye contact. It's easier to scan the dance floor when you are with a group of friends because you have backup in case you pick the wrong one. Most of the fights I have been in involved small groups of 2 or three, except one time I thought the whole town of [deleted] was descending upon us.

Let's take one-on-one, man-to-man, and you have picked someone out that you want to fight with.. You just stare across the floor until eye contact first. If you can’t get something started, you walk around the floor, keeping the corner of your eye on him to check if he is trying to avoid contact. You walk by and bump him -- elbow, shoulder, step on the foot, cut between him and his girl, or even bump his girl. etc., The more you want to play, the more subtle and indirect you are. Even apologize your intrusion to make your presence known if you have to. Continue walking around the floor until you get to your original spot, and wait for the signals. 1) He is now nervous and doesn’t want to fight; 2) BINGO! He wants to fight and the interview is OVER; 3) NO response. This is frustrating because it means more work, 4) The little firefly starts lighting up.

You really don’t want to deal with #4, and throw #1 away.

Back to #3, the one with no response. Restart your walking-around-the-floor routine again, only this time when you get close, watch out for his friends and keep in mind that HE may attack you. None of the above? Instead of bumping him, walk right across in front og him so that you KNOW he sees you, then stand near him, between the dance floor and he (assuming he is facing the dance floor) so he HAS to look at you sooner or later. Don’t even look at him, it is his turn to approach you. Nothing? Damn! Circle over to your original spot and stare to see if you have elicited something. If nothing has started and unless you really want to fight this one, which will entail another walk all the way around the crowded dance floor, start ‘looking’ elsewhere.

Now your prospects are heightened, because your actions have caught the eye of those who want to fight; they have been watching you already waiting for the fight to happen. It should be easy now to stare someone into a fight.

Just a viewpoint from someone on the other side of the dance floor.


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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email] <font color=white>

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 06-03-99).]
JohnC
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The eyes have it

Post by JohnC »

Lori:

Some self defense courses suggest that women in particular will have different dynamics. In most, if not all, cases, they sure are not trying to stare someone into a fight.

They get the hinky feeling that someone is subtly stalking them or giving them undue shadowing or attention. It is suggested that brief eye direct contact be made and a sweep of the person from head to toe so that you can fully apprise the potential predator and note size, age, dress, etc. to further confirm or deny that hinky feeling.

The women may need to also speak at some point in a direct, nonthreatening manner to announce she has awareness and has a territory.

Does this further the interview? I would suggest not. This denotes I am not the victim you are seeking.

I agree with Allen though, that when a guy gets lured into a stare, it is usually a staged event with the perpetrator forcing you to respond with some prior minor, but annoying ploy. It works! Now, suddenly he escalates his stare and all the other primate aggressive body language. Look out.

Stares come in all ranges of meaning. Like that pointed out - the "vacuum", the "all business", the "aggressive high glare", etc.

JohnC
david
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The eyes have it

Post by david »

Eye contact alone doesn't covey the message. It has to be done in context of the whole package -- body language, aura...

About a week or so ago, I was walking behind and towards this elderly woman in downtown crossing. All of sudden, she turned and "stared" right at me. I almost stopped dead in my tracks. I responded mentally (and probably with body language), "Whoa! You got me, but I am not the bad guy!" Almost as soon as I finished this statement in my head, she turned around and continued on her way. Whew...

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited 06-03-99).]
Allen M.

The eyes have it

Post by Allen M. »

Hello JohnC.

An objective of what's in my post above was to get the other guy to start the fight. Get HIM to come out so you can say to the cops afterwards HE started it, and have witnesses. But, the instigator is calling all the shots.

On the streetcorner it is different. Less than a few seconds after the initial glare it can be all over. David says it right, the stare is only one part of the package. walking down the road and a group of guys are ahead, even on the other side, you don't need a stare to tell what they are up to if they mean you harm.

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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Van Canna
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The eyes have it

Post by Van Canna »

Fascinating subject ; the eyes__ mirrors of the soul !
Experts write that , the eyes, like mirrors-can sometimes mislead us !
Yet , as David points out , the message of the eyes must be perceived or beamed in sync with the rest of the " body language presentation" !

People reveal certain truths about who they are and what they want through the movement and stance of their physical and emotional selves ,much the same way they send subliminal signals to others in intimate personal details they volunteer to marginal friends and non intimate -- quasi-strangers ! Women, for a number of complex reasons we will not discuss here, fall prey to this Faux-pas with much regularity and then wonder what the trigger was for the resulting unwanted attention or veiled persistency ! I had to bail out my beautiful sister a couple of times from potential ugly repercussions by intervening personally to dispel fairly well entrenched notions seeded by the emotional blunders !!

Lori asks: < Certainly body language
also comes into play, eye contact with a scared expression is much
different from a determined "Uechi-glare." So what is the best
course for women to adopt when dealing with strangers and being
"bumped" by circling sharks? >

Back to the eyes __Mac young writes that if you come up on someone you do not wish to acknowledge , a good way is to pass your eyes over him/her at about the same speed you would a telephone pole conveying a message of awareness without making eye contact per se ! This must accompany what I coined as " The pallid sphinx effect" from a European woman I knew in my teenage years and from my upbringing in a European society, chock full of elegant women in mannerism and carriage !
I.E., an impassive , sophisticated , yet non- snobbish, confident bearing with vacant , but, at once, all seeing eyes !

Then as "situations" move in on you ; you must remember that your eyes will become your primary emotional flags of dominant or submissive signals ! The manner in which you wave those flags will truly reflect who you really are and what you have become in life !

And here is something very interesting , very much related, although , perhaps not readily apparent to some of us following this discussion : Attunement with the emotional vortex of life is paramount in "safe navigation" ! Emotional intelligence, for example, teaches that the message of the eyes between a mother and child, as one of many components of character crystallization , sets the stage for ' attunement' in social skills and personal fulfillment later in life !

As a classic example , Dr. Stern -writes that Making love is perhaps the closest approximation in adult life to the attunement concept __ " involving the experience of sensing the other's subjective state :shared desires , aligned intentions, and mutual states of simultaneous shifting arousal "

Peace ,




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Van Canna
Jason Bernard
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Post by Jason Bernard »

The "Uechi Glare" or "Kyokushin Glare" as I like to call it Image transcends eye contact itself, although certainly everything posted so far is informative and accurate! The glare (regardless of flavour!) has to encompass an entire demeanour and body language. The eyes may be the windows to the soul, but make no mistake that there are other ways to read the book!

I have been in a few would be fights that ended peacefully because of the glare. It is something that must be practiced in order to be of use, just like any other skill or tactic! I personally like to adopt a stare that looks through the person completely, as if I am looking at their direction but not them directly. A person who once tried to pick a fight with me and later became my friend (he joined the dojo I was training at) said it was like I had other disdain for him, his life, and his mere existence. He didn't doubt for a second that I had the intention to hurt him, and to hurt him severely. He said it scared the living *censored* out of him. He couldn't imagine facing somebody with such a cold expression. I use this expression during sparring matches for rank promotion as well. My opponents comment that until they get used to it (usually by around 5th kyu) they find it very unsettling, and a distraction.

You cannot love (i.e. feel mercy) nor hate your enemy. Their threat must be neutralized not because of emotion but simply because it is the way it must be.

Osu!
Jason
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Jason-san,

Excellent post ! Thank you !

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Van Canna
JOHN THURSTON
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Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Lori San:

Jason and Van and everyone make excellent if varying points, but the last two come toghether.

If you can "control the adrenalin dump" which I have to work on, you are a step ahead.

When you can give the souless glare you have taken some control of it, and the other guy now nows it. He has just found out something he didn't want to know.

Once in a confrontation it seems to me this could have two possible results-the confronter will back down, or will escalate.

In the latter event, you have at least still mastered the "adrenalin dump".

JOHN

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maurice richard libby

The eyes have it

Post by maurice richard libby »

Many good replies.

To go back to basics, remember that in the more advanced primates (which includes us) and many carnivores (especially canines, wild and domestic), direct eye contact is an agressive, assertive technique. The beta individual will not make eye contact with the alpha. To do so is a challenge. Thus eye contact is the first step in an escalating situation.(We are talking about something that is hard-wired in the species in question). This is where the body language, etc, that has been discussed above comes into play.

If you are dealing with dogs, for example, if you want to dominate the dog, you stare it down, but if the animal is not by nature submissive, you have to be prepared to back up the stare with direct action, or lie on your back, expose your belly, and submit. To make this choice, you have to be able to know the animal, (even if you've just met it for thew first time), and know yourself , (probably less easy of the two). It works the same for 800 lb. gorillas, but the choice is much easier. With humans, it's a little problemmatic.

It seems to me that we're right back where we started, many months ago. If your mindset is "Win or die--there are no other choices" then go ahead and make agressive eye contact, if not, don't. You have develop the ability to read the situation and the person.

This is all a corollary to de Becker's "interview". Sometimes you can back the bad guy down with eye contact, (in fact avoiding eye contact is one of the markers cited in an old FBI study that examined how muggers used body language to choose victims. They see people who never make eye contact as 'sheep'. There is never one easy solution. It's different with men and wqomen. There are cultural variations. Situations are fluid. You have to stay aware, be flexible, monitor feedback. etc, etc.

My habit of wearing shades much of the time (even indoors) springs from this. There is no problem with inadvertantly setting off a situation, and when you take them off, there is no mistake about it. In fact, you can closely watch the whole situation, and nobody knows exactly what you're doing. Even this upsets less stable thugs, though, so there's no perfection anywhere.

I'm beginning to ramble. Nice thread, though.

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maurice richard libby
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JOHN THURSTON
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The eyes have it

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Cool Hand Maurice!

The wearing "shades" is an interesting notion.

Rmember the guard in "Cool Hand Luke"?

Maybe you are too young.

The sunglasses were all it took (well the shotgun didn't hurt) for the prisoners in the movie to mostly stay seriously intimidated.

In this connection, would it be correct to teach one's students to show no emotion in a confrontation, or to evince aggression, or, as you said, play it by ear.

JOHN T



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maurice richard libby

The eyes have it

Post by maurice richard libby »

"What we have here is a failure to communicate!"

I's amazing how disconcerted some people can get if they can't read you. Shades help. Total deadpan is also good.

The most frightening people are those (probably psychotic) who have completely dead eyes.

It's also intersting to note how many people lose control of a situation by getting angry, sarcastic, or showing fear. etc. etc.

The other side of this is to react (as deadpan as possible) in ways they don't expect, but aren't threatening to them. I.E.-- if some one trying to pick a fight with you insults your mother, agree with him (but show no emotion)--they tend to get confused, disoriented, and even a little frightened because you're not acting according to the script. ( Watch out for complete psychoes, though.)

be cool.

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
Ronin at large
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