A greater danger than a stranger

[miked]

"Adest Alaricus, trepidam Roman obsidet, turpat, irrumpit"

Alaric appeared, Rome trembled and was overcome.

Orosius, 1. vii. c .39, p. 573.

The first sack of the Eternal City (by means of a Gothic army led by Alaric) occured in the early years of the 5th. century, long before the Crusades were embarked upon. The Salarian Gate (one of seven gates leading into the city) was treacherously opened by dissatisfied domestics or slaves and the Goths poured through the city massacring, looting and raping the effeminate citizens at will. The Romans, had by that time, become so accustomed to comfort that they had lost the mantle of bravery and fortitude which had in earlier ages secured to them the world and all its treasures.


Mike
------------------------------------------

John wrote:

Anthony:

By our own eyes Rome was 'Degenerate" from the start. The Paterfamilias was law, and could cause his own children to be killed if they did not follow his orders. It did happen.

They were always Polytheistic, in the beginning.

Yet this Republic turned Empire created a "Pax Romana" without modern Communications which lasted four hundred years. The "stump" of the Empire in the East tottered on until the 15th Century, dying in slices.


Until the Ottoman's, only the fellow Christians of the 4th Crusade ever sacked the City.

Being properly Christian and probably not degenerate did not save the last Imperials
from the Turks, with no money to pay mercenaries and no desire to fight on the walls themselves, they took refuge in the Sancta Sophia, prayed, and died.

Degeneracy is a tricky word.

I personally feel, and this will sound unsavory, that a state can maintain many degenerate and disgusting and even Barbarous practices, but if enough of it's people will fight for it, or if it is rich enough to hire professionals, it may blunder on for a bit.

So-were do we sit-somewhere scooting towards a professional army. As you said, not a good sign, but different.

JOHN

------------------

[JOHN THURSTON]

To All:

I confess that I got my cities a bit confused, or so it would seem.

The City that I referred to as being sacked by fellow Christians in the 4th Crusade was Constantinople, the capital of the "stub" of the Empire, before that, I am not sure it was taken before or after its name changed from Byzantium to Constantinople when the capitol (capital) was relocated.

Istanbul means "the city" I think in Turkish (?) and finally fell in the 15th century to the Ottomans.

Rome, the eternal city, was sacked andf taken backe and forth so many times after 451 or so that I have, frankly, no idea how many times it was done and redone.


Sorry for the confusion.

I believe the City (Rome for clarity) changed hands several times during Belisarius' campaigns to re-establish the Empire in the East at Justinian's behest.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

J.

[JOHN THURSTON]

Further correction:

Oops again, the material I have indicates that Alaric Sacked Rome in 410, after which he installed a puppet Emporer Priscus Attalus.

My materials do note indicates which gate was opened first only that: "By a skillful disposition of his numerous forces, Alaric encompassed the walls, commanded the 12 principal gates------the first emotions of the nobles and of the people were those of suprise and indignation, that a vile barbarian should insult the capital of the world-but their arrogance was soon humbled by misfortune"

Gibbon.

A little research in advance of my posts would have served me better in this case.

J.

------------------

[JOHN THURSTON]

Ah well J.D:

My memory is a bit "conceptual" and I must perforce resort to obscure quotations to eradicate errata.

Besides, I thought that was in my "mission statement?"

If someone accused you of resorting to such references in the negative sense, it was not myself.

Lori, I apologize for getting your original points sidetracked and for the historical errata.

J.


J.

------------------

[Lori]

John-san,

No apology necessary! Your posts are always informative, educational, and very welcome. Please don't stop contributing!

As for errors - we all make them - those "men" enough will admit it - and move on. (women are often too catty) Anyone who would dwell on such trivialities of human fallibility isn't worth worrying about! I doubt very much that you are the first person to misquote an aspect of history - would that all of us took the time and concern to check our facts! (yea, you know who you are! You pompous you-know-whats!)

John-san, again, your posts are always welcome! Thanks for participating and rounding out the discussions!

Peace,
Lori

[Lori]

Actually, upon reflection, the historical fact-checking episode above seems to relate nicely to the original thoughts prompting this thread - "things are not what they seem!"

Opinion vs. fact: He LOOKS like a nice guy - he'd never do anything so heinous - she has a high dan rank so she must be worthy of respect - he owns his own school so he must be a good teacher - he has a medical degree so his views must be correct...

Any of these statements isn't worth the bits and bytes making them appear on your screen if you don't take the time to verify their accuracy!

Like the well-mannered business executive down the street who turned out to be a serial rapist - be careful who you place your blind trust upon!

Your reputation, your safety, your very life can depend on how willing you are to trust blindly what you have been spoonfed by media or institutions - question, communicate, research - then make an educated and informed decision and damn the torpedoes.

Peace,
Lori

[JOHN THURSTON]

Lori:

Thanks for the support.

I keep re-reading your posts on De BEckers book, and I hope I'll have some capital to order it this week.

There have been at least three incidents in this area alone involving Maartial arts instructors there bear on the points you originally addressed, fortunatley, none in the Uechi Community.

It can happen.

Anthony-san:

I misunderstood your reference to Rome in a sense.

I will re-read your post.

John

------------------

[miked]

To John, Lori & Anthony

Apologies to all, no offense was meant.

I am still poring through Gibbon, what a great read!

Comparing the decline of Rome to the US is impractical. Although the US does suffer from some intestine discord, the US still has nuclear stockpiles, as well as chemical and biological weapons. Additionally, although the US Armed Services have not been meeting their recruiting quotas, should there be a call to arms to defend our country from invasion, I am confident that our nation's sons and daughters will heed the call. Lastly, the Roman Republic effectively lost sway after the rise of Octavian (Augustus) to power. Our democratic representation is still the best form of government to prevent insipidity, insolence, oppression and delusions of grandeur, IMHO.

Oh and Doctor X,

When did you learn to read?

Mike

[Lori]

Mike-san,

No apologies needed from you either! Your clarification sparked the fuel for my minor tirade! What good are these forums if they do not help to uncover facts and clarify truth? Your post did that and as such was very timely!

Don't stop!

Peace,
Lori

[JOHN THURSTON]

Mike:

Not to worry. My copy of Gibbon is abridged and profusely illustrated, otherwise, I wouldn't be able to understand it.

The point I was trying ot make was that no matter how our eyes might view a society in the past or somewhere else, if they still could muster popular support internally or enough money, (to buy mercenaries externally) they might survive.

Hagia Sophia (check me on this) is now the Mosque of Omar (?) in Turkey.

I'll post something on my forum along these lines.

Lori:

Thanks again, I am going to order DeBecker today.

I have a couple of questions, but I will relate them later.

J.



------------------