What would you do?

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Lori
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What would you do?

Post by Lori »

To borrow a thread name from Gary Sensei, I entitle this after a situation of my own, placing it here as it applies more specifically to women.

A late nite run for milk at the local 7-Eleven, seemingly an innocuous task, was enough to raise my ire...

As I crosssed in front of some of the parked cars to enter the store, a few suggestive comments and a wolf whistle emitted from a parked van. (With a company name on it.) The store was extremely busy. I ignored the comments and proceeded into the store - made my purchase - exited, noted the van was still there and started in the direction of my car.

As I crossed the parking lot - another wolf whistle and more comments came from the van which was now backing out of the parking lot. As it passed me, more comments were made. None of these comments involved threats or invitations, only lewd appreciative appraisal of my, shall we say, attributes.

I might add that I was dressed in an average fashion for a hot Florida evening - although NOT see-through, low cut, or skin-tight.

The van exited the parking lot before I approached my car, and I made sure they exited before exiting myself. Two grown men were visible in the front of the van - mid to late twenties. As I crossed the street, I noticed a parked police car at the bank across the way.

I also noted the name of the company painted on the van.

I admit to feelings of outrage and disgust at these idiots. My right to exist and function in public unmolested (if only verbally) was violated. If my teenage daughter was with me, I may have reacted differently than I did. I'm not posting my action yet.

What would you do? Chase them down and give them a piece of your mind? Complain to the police officer across the street? (This is a very small town and he could have easily caught up with them.) Call the company represented on the van? Ignore it? Would your reaction be different if you were alone, or if it happened to your wife/girlfriend? If your daughter was with you?

Just curious as to other reactions from other parts of the country.

Peace,
Lori
david
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What would you do?

Post by david »

Generally, I ignore verbal garbage directed towards me or those with me. This especially true when others are with me. Don't want to drag others who are not prepared into something in which they too will be seen and treated as combatants. In my younger days, well...

Physical assault -- the killing rage takes over and is given free rein. A number of years ago, my mother was knocked down and mugged in front of our house. She came in and told me what happened. I grabbed a weapon and went out on to the streets, running around looking for the perpetrator, never mind that my mother had given only a glimmer of a description. She was knocked down from behind. Just as well I didn't find him or anyone close to the description. I was in a killing rage.

Another time, a neighborhood punk broke into the house. He ran into my mother, saw her as she did him. He walked out the door. She knew who he was. As it turned out, I was training with his older brother in a kickboxing school. I told his brother what his younger brother did and that I was going to kick his butt, if not worse, when I see him. His older brother asked me to let him take care of it, and that he understood where I was coming from. The older brother trashed the punk pretty well. The punk has straightened out. He actually works in a Chinese produce company doing deliveries, has learned to speak some Chinese, and waves and smiles when he sees me, my mother, or the Chinese neighbors. I no longer train at the same gym with the older brother. But he is still my dojo mate and will always be. HONOR and INTEGRITY!

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited 07-25-99).]
JOHN THURSTON
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What would you do?

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Lori:

The law (especially in Mass.) says pretty much flat out that no verbal assualt warrants a physical defense.

Sometimes I don't like that.

Undoubtedly, Florida has many "anti obscenity" statutes that the local constabulary might have made use of, but I don't think that sounds like a lot of fun for you.

A College Teen in Michigan fell out of his canoe, cursed and swore, and was succesfully prosecuted by the local prosecutor for using foul language where a "family" heard it.


Specifically forbidden in Michigan, apparently.


Not very satisfying either.

I guess, uncontrolable rage aside, stand by with earplugs and the readiness to protect yourself when required.

I realize that this is not a "blood and guts" visceral response.

But, it seems to be where the law is.

Love to tell you that you could just "drop a can of whoop butt" on the offenders, but I am not sure that would be good advice, all kidding aside.

However, the same rules apply to the verbalizers, but verbalizing back to provoke a physical response, to which you could then respond (hopefully with witnesses present) would be walking the thin line.

J.


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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 07-25-99).]
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Van Canna
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What would you do?

Post by Van Canna »

Lori,

What you went trough is a vexing problem all-right!

Lots of unpleasant ramifications no matter what response action!

The “emotional maelstrom” launches at the verbal abuse, possibly clouding thinking which could set you up for a fall!

J.T. wrote
“But verbalizing back to provoke a physical response, to which you could then respond (hopefully with witnesses present) would be walking the thin line.”

Very true! The legal view seems to be that responding to an insult with another insult or physical aggressive demeanor, is perceived as “escalation” and if you are then forced to defend yourself, you might not be able to meet the burden of persuasion of self defense before the court!

Similarly, if you “verbally abuse back” you might give those backwater rednecks the excuse to become physically abusive!

The cops will get a cheap thrill out of your repeating to them the “dirty words” aimed at you, and even if they chased the punks down, it will be their words against yours, and all you will be buying in the long run is nothing but hassles!

Then there will be a police report with your name and address on it made available to the rednecks and, depending on who they are, you might expect strange phone calls and outright retribution, especially if they loose their jobs _ should you also report them to their employer!

What a country!

Sounds more like a job for the Corleone family!




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Van Canna
Lori
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What would you do?

Post by Lori »

Vexing problem indeed!

Far be it from me to start sounding like Gloria Steinem -- but I'm sorely tempted.

FIRST of all - this isn't something men ever have to deal with. A few appreciative comments from some hormonal nubile young things are taken quite differently I am sure.

This is not the first time this has ever happened - just running past one of the ever present condominium construction sites on the beach is enough to get all kinds of feedback.

Part of what aggravates me is now my daughter is getting the same treatment.

Perhaps that just makes me feel old? Well, partially maybe - but more of my anger comes from my forced duty to educate her how to handle this kind of BS - and the fact that I even have to!

Tell me please - do you parents educate your sons on how to handle sexual verbal assault on the street? No? And why pray tell is that?

Instead we have to prime our sons on how to deal with the other types of assaults discussed on the Reality Forum... legal ramifications, carry or not to carry, hit first, etc.

Sure - women would do very well to stand up tand take notice - ESPECIALLY given the stats that Van Sensei kindly posted here! Frightening stuff! And it's a sick world!

But the fact remains that women face a whole different set of problems than males. Yeah, my 7-Eleven incident was aggravating - it got my temper up. But what was the best course of action? Keep walking like I didn't even hear it. OK - I hear you - this also applies to guys - but what I'm saying here is that the type of assault is different!

And it's not just violence folks! (cue N.O.W. convention music) It's the way women are treated in general. Again, I am not a card-carrying feminist, libber or other such label - but situations keep popping up - and even in this martial arts world of budo, respect, loyalty and other such philosophies that seem more and more not worth the rice paper they are written on! Granted - I've met many, and I mean many, martial artists who live the code they practice, but for quite a few it is so much lip service. Women face a whole different set of problems when it comes to politics, managing a dojo, teaching, competing, even in a sanchin check for cripes sake.

Should women give up because of some blatant inequalities? I don't think so.

I'm just using this example to point out that you can NEVER leave gender out of the equation. Nature, nurture, whatever you want to call it - it factors in on people's responses to you in every move you make, or don't make.

Solutions?

I'm open for them!

Peace,
Lori
JOHN THURSTON
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What would you do?

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Lori:

I guess it is true that men, generally, are not subject to this type of verbal assualt.

Civil Law says for someone to voice a threat coupled with the apparent ability to carry it forth would constitute a civil assault "Tort", Civil "Battery" "offensive touching".

If the guys had any assets.

You say this is a small town? Play the angles, call the chief, and don't "complain" as such, ask his advice, that way you are making him aware of a situatation without immediately putting him on the defensive.

See what happens-never use any offensive language-unless a JUdge orders you to repeat something verbatim-when you describe the situation you encountered.

Check the statutes to see if any particular law was violated by word or deed.

I know what you want is to make this type of thing disappear, and I have a daughter too, so I am thinking through a scenario.

Last time was when a bunch of high school kids made obscene gestures at me out of the back of a bus.

When the bus stopped-I got on.
The Driver said "Sir-you're not allowed on the bus" I said "I am on the bus " and I related the story. I had my daughter in the car while the gestures were made, so I was steamed.


The teacher read the guys the riot act, and I unsteamed-next step-head honcho of the school.

Do SOMETHING (legal) if will unsteam you, but I think the "can of whoop butt" is out.

J.D. May have a good idea here in terms of not playing to the assailants strengths--what are yours--use them-think it thru.

J



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JohnC
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What would you do?

Post by JohnC »

Lori:

The overall thread reminds me of my college years ...

Just in front of the campus cafeteria was a short buffered hill with a retaining wall that was perfect for sitting. It was the notorious spot for guys to sit and ogle the girls as they came and went and offer snide remarks and nudge each other, and call out a woman's "score"(1-10). I, of course, would never participate in such things.

Anyway, one day as I leave from lunch, I hear these loud female voices, that proceeded to give me and some other guys the same treatment given women. Laughing and discussing our vital statistics with blatant coarseness and unflattering terms.

Later, I found out it was a group of feminists dishing out what the guys had been giving. It was pretty funny and a pretty effective means of protest. They had turned the tables on us guys and we did not like it!


JohnC
david
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What would you do?

Post by david »

Lori,

Can't say what it's like to be a woman. It's a factor I'm sure. But as J.D. said, "We all have our crossess to bear. . . ." Mine is the color of my skin. It's pretty obvious in some of my post how this, or more specifically the reaction of some, has had an affect on my life. It's in my mind whereever new place I go and there when I meet people totally new. It better be and I am better prepared because the color of my skin is noticed and the reaction is not always friendly...

Frankly, my reaction to Gary's post, with no disrespect, was: So, What's new? I've gotten that more than I can remember with my young kids, my wife, my family... I sat down with my wife- to- be, on a date (what a cheap one, huh?) in a practically empty Friendly's restuarant in Concord, MA, not Down South, mind you, and we didn't get served for over an hour. I remember her saying, "Let's leave." I told here we ain't leaving til we get served. So stay we did until we got served by a surly waitress. On the streets, we get sometimes a more aggressive rather than passive/aggressive types of hassle. I learned that there is only some much fighting one can do at the drop of a hat (or a word). I just ignore it. And my self-esteem suffers no great problems and my emotional self is at ease. Why? Because there is just too many opportunities to get into it and the law of averages is that I gonna buy it at some point. Naw... I rather stick around for awhile. Living is a better payback. IN YOUR FACE, S^CKER! Say what you want, just don't touch...

I have two boys, 6 and 9, and I do worry about how they react/interact with the world. I have yet to teach them "martial" practice. Frankly, I am more concerned right now in the development of their character, in what is right or wrong. I remember seeing my oldest son, when he was four, trying intentionally to bump a Black kid coming up the street. I had never seen that kind of aggressive behaviour up to that point from him. To the contrary he was always friendly with Chinese and White kids he saw on the streets. I was horrified as both my wife and I have friends of different backgrounds. I took him aside and asked him what that was about (he was and is precocious.) He knew I wasn't happy about that but he couldn't/wouldn't give a reason. We noticed other things as well in his reaction to Black folks and then heard him repeat a Chinese racial slur. Well, it didnt' take much to figure out it was coming from his Chinese caretaker -- a nice woman who was nevertheless inflicted with racism against Blacks. We told her never to use racial slurs in front of our kids and that we in fact have black friends and do want our kids to be afraid or aggressive with them. Fixing that problem with the caregiver was easy. It took much longer with our son. By the time he got to grade school, he was going a little too much the other way. We asked him about his friends and he would give vague descriptions that lack any racial content. Finally, we would ask, "Well, is he Black, Asian, White, what?" He answered, "I didn't notice." Yeah, right...

Our sons are pretty observant about the relationships/interactions between people. We encourage them to talk about their day. Invariably, discussions would turn to conflicts at school and these are valuable opportunities to talk about their perspectives, and the rights and wrongs. There are certainly interesting discussions since our sons are two of four Asians in an inner city school, albeit a "pilot" (experimental) school of mostly Black, Hispanic and some Whites. Our sons are used to talking and they have noticed how boys are more into action whereas the girls are into interaction. They are trying to find their right mix.

I have not found it important to teach them "how to fight". Frankly, they have had opportunities to "get into it", and the big one doesn't back down if he feels he is right. And the second one worships the older one, more than he does his dad. The challenge has always been to help them identify what is "right".

Both kids are going to a summer camp at my center right now in Chinatown. The camp is mostly Chinese, but also some Black, Hispanics and White. The oldest said the other day, "I can't believe the Black kids will make these racist comments about Chinese, specially in program with some many Chinese in the middle of Chinatown. They are always acting really tough, scaring the the other kids." Knowing some of the backgounds of these kids, I explain where some of these kids come from, they feel they have to be tough to get respect. My son answered, "Yeah, I know that. But I don't have to like it! I don't fight them but I show that I not afraid of them either." I thought to myself, "Welcome to the real world, kid."

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited 07-26-99).]
natalie lane
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What would you do?

Post by natalie lane »

Lori-San


I have often wondered why some men choose to treat women so disrespectfully, surely it is not to increase their chances to meet women.

When this happens to me, I usually just console myself with the thought that these men are just trying to bond with each other, and that they must be insecure with themselves to feel the need to try to reduce a women into a sexual object. I often imagine their mothers, wives and sisters and feel sorry for the women in their lives. I hope they receive more respect.

Speaking on a personal level, I have never felt any threat from these lowlifes (remember I have no daughters), but I have often felt irritation and rage. However, the older I become, the easier I find it to ignore these jerks. In the past, I have flashed them death looks and a few snappy comebacks, and I have never had a situation like this escalate into physical confrontation.

There is no advice coming from this corner, you probably already know what you intend to do, if anything, and I am confident that it will be the right thing to do.

Peace,
Nat
JOHN THURSTON
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What would you do?

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Well:

David:

I recall stories, from friends mind you, having served in Vietnam to the effect that, in conferences, if a US black officer entered, the Vietnamese would "stop" interfacing.

Racism is like a weed, if we kill it here, it pops up somewhere else.

Keep trying new weedkillers I guess.

I hope my daughter never comments on anyone's skin color, she has been raised to be "color blind", period.

Natalie:


You're right. Insecurity. I absolutely agree.

Having established that, what is the appropriate reaction?

"Drive on, it don't mean nuthin'".

J

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Robb in Sacramento
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What would you do?

Post by Robb in Sacramento »

John and Lori:

John, what about a cause of action for intentional infliction of emotional distress addressed to the owner of the van under respondeat superior? I am not sure what the standard might be in Lori's area, but it seems to have been intentionally directed toward her, with a reasonable expectation that it would cause emotional upset, and it was done from a company vehicle. Whether the occupants were on a frolic as opposed to a detour might have some significance, but this could be fleshed out in discovery. Thoughts?

Lori,

You might consider contacting a reputable tort attorney in your area. In addition to a cause of action againt the occupants and the owners of the van, you might also have a cause of action against the store if they know this activity is going on an have not taken actions to correct it. (Such as posting a security guard.) Several states have adopted statutes that might also provide you with some relief. Anti stalking statutes are an example of this type of legislation. Of course, most people just let this sort of thing go. The cost of litigation is high. In some states, however, you could also explore bringing a small claims action for damages. This would not involve hiring an attorney.

No one likes this behavior. Sorry you had to experience it.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento
JOHN THURSTON
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What would you do?

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Robb:

Respondeat Superior would work, in theory, however, "damages" would be tough.

The general law on damages of the emotional kind is that there has to be some associated physical trauma involved. I haven't looked much at the doctrine you speak of in a while, but I will check it out along with the 4 other legal research projects going.


But, it might settle. Unfortunately, Lori probably is not going to fabricate extreme emotional distress from this incident.

Perhaps, again, it will take looking up the Florida Law against obscenity and or verbal assaults, and walking down to the courthouse and filing a criminal complaint. In Mass, you can ask the District Court Magistrate to issue a Complaint personally, you don't have to go thru the Police. Subsequently a show cause hearing would ensue before the Magistrate (clerk) before the matter got put into the system before a judge. Whether or not the DA gets involved at this juncture, I don't know. Nor do I now what the Florida Statutes might be like.

Like you said, stuff like that shouldn't happen.

J
P.S.The anti stalking statutes up here are real tough, but that would, at this point, put Lori in a position of fabricating something.

Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress---I repeat it 'cause I'm thinking. Damages?

thanks
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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 07-26-99).]
Robb in Sacramento
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What would you do?

Post by Robb in Sacramento »

John:

Thanks. Four legal research projects!!! Your Westlaw or Lexis bill must look like the National Debt!

I am not sure Lori would need to fabricate anything to establish damages. Her post here clearly shows she was troubled by the incident, and is apparently trying to resolve the extreme emotional upset this caused her. It also seems to me her daughter may have been in the "Zone of Danger" and might have her own cause for negligent infliction of emotional distress. Any thoughts on a nuisance action against the owner of the van? His employees were clearly creating a public nuisance by their actions. Perhaps she could bring an OSC to show why an injunction should not issue against the owner of the van to restrain his employees from acts of taughting, public harassment, defamation, and public ridicule. I wonder how the employer would respond when the suit was filed and discovery began to ascertain what if any training employees receive with regard to harassment.

Damages. Lori has already expressed a reluctance on this forum with regard to repeating this experience. What is her right to freely travel to the store worth? How can anyone put a price on what she and her daughter have lost? (Stop me John, please, I am having tort class flash backs!!!)

Peace
Robb in Sacramento
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Van Canna
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What would you do?

Post by Van Canna »

John,

From my recollection of Mass cases only negligent infliction of emotional distress requires an associated substantial physical manifestation!

Intentional infliction would let a claim remain actionable on emotional injury alone! Am I correct? What would the Florida State require?

As you say, damages is the key, very difficult to prove anything significant and not worth the hassle Lori would find herself in! She would have to pay a good psychiatrist to come up with a credible report and the liability carrier defending the case would subject her to an independent psychiatric evaluation !

If she filed suit, the defense attorney would try to destroy her in a deposition!

In such cases, I usually retain the services of a top private investigator to do a background check on the plaintiff, interview prior employers; establish any life style changes after the event along with surreptitious taping of the plaintiff’s activities! Also her claim for emotional distress would be recorded in the index system available to a prospective employer in a routine check for possible hire!

Factor in the possibility of retribution by the rednecks!

Would not want to wish this on Lori! Best to move on and forget about it ..and get used to it as it will happen soon again!


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Van Canna
JOHN THURSTON
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What would you do?

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

Van Sensei:

I believe you are right on the intentional vs. negligent infliction of emotional distress.

Robb:

I am tryign to get stuff in on "shod foot" "Retreat Doctrine", Mass. Standard for Use of Deadly force, and, and now "response to verbal assualts".

Well, I'm just a real estate and probate dude.

Check out what I found on "Phyrric/martial Dance" (change of subject).

The law in the Commonwealth in not helpful to martial artists, should they choose to use their feet.


J



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