After the last thread - I'm going to try this one again. No bites last time. If the women don't have an opinion that can be voiced - we don't deserve to be heard. On the other hand - for you guys out there - maybe you can give some of these questions your distinctly male perspective.
I ask you here - what is to be the female role in the continuation of this art?
There aren't that many of us it seems - although our number is growing - slowly - but growing.
Not too many participate here! Why? Politics? Fear of being "flamed"? Not a member of the right organization - or perhaps a member of an organization that shuns this site and therefore afraid to post for fear of reprisal? Or - and here is a very real concern - one of my own even - publicly acknowledging that you are a female martial artist often attracts strange attentions from those who seek out "strong" or unique women. Yet I feel that the female contributions to our style are many - involving aspects that may hide behind the testosterone - the karate "scene" is male dominated. Given. It's difficult for a female to be acknowledged as a leader in many aspects of life - and perhaps even moreso in this very male martial art. (Try running a dojo as a woman!) But our participation preserveres - what are we going to do to continue this art?
Oh there is much more to this issue - and eventually I'll find the words to give it the right thread.
For now I post a quote appropriate to politics - from D.H. Lawrence:
<blockquote>When we get out of the glass bottles of our ego,
and when we escape like squirrels turning in
the cages of our personality
and get into the forests again,
we shall shiver with cold and fright
but things will happen to us
so that we don't know ourselves.
Cool, unlying life will rush in,
and passion will make our bodies taut with power,
we shall stamp our feet with new power
and old things will fall down,
we shall laugh, and institutions will curl up like
burnt paper.</blockquote>
Women need to remember to run with the wolves - and not be left behind - picking up the scraps.
Where does the female ego play? Can we balance the male ones of our style? What is to be our role?
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 05-27-99).]
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
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Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Jackie? Natalie? Melanie? Women seniors and beginners? Help me out here. I know some of you are reading this - what IS our role?
And the gentlemen are certainly free to venture their opinion - don't worry about politically correct - for all the talk of equality - we have to acknowledge our differences. This has manifested itself in numerous ways: rank - awarding of rank - testing requirements - protective gear - leadership - hitting women too hard - not hard enough -
I could go on - but we KNOW there are differences. So how do these play in trying to foster growth as a style? Strangely - this is an echoing sentiment expressed recently on the roundtable. I ask it here from the standpoint of women karateka.
Open forum folks. What do you think?
Peace,
Lori
And the gentlemen are certainly free to venture their opinion - don't worry about politically correct - for all the talk of equality - we have to acknowledge our differences. This has manifested itself in numerous ways: rank - awarding of rank - testing requirements - protective gear - leadership - hitting women too hard - not hard enough -
I could go on - but we KNOW there are differences. So how do these play in trying to foster growth as a style? Strangely - this is an echoing sentiment expressed recently on the roundtable. I ask it here from the standpoint of women karateka.
Open forum folks. What do you think?
Peace,
Lori
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Lori:
One answer, is there is no need to make more of a mark than that of a good karateka!
Another way of looking at this, is many(not all) men that come to Uechi and karate in general are naturally strong or have natural or developed fighting skills that have little to do with Uechi. They are able to make a mark without relying totally on execution and technique. For example, even without using Sanchin strength, they can push/toss the uke in bunkai, etc.
Most women(not all) do not have this advantage. They have more to develop and more to overcome. They rely more on execution and kinza to bring about mastery in the kumite ring or the kata performance than natural power. They must rely more on Sanchin power in /pushing tossing their bunkai partners.
It seems that this could have some residual implications in the ultimate contribution to karate and certainly to teaching. Women can better appreciate it when things don't come easily.
This all said, not respecting that Uechi karate was never intended to be practiced by women!
JohnC
One answer, is there is no need to make more of a mark than that of a good karateka!
Another way of looking at this, is many(not all) men that come to Uechi and karate in general are naturally strong or have natural or developed fighting skills that have little to do with Uechi. They are able to make a mark without relying totally on execution and technique. For example, even without using Sanchin strength, they can push/toss the uke in bunkai, etc.
Most women(not all) do not have this advantage. They have more to develop and more to overcome. They rely more on execution and kinza to bring about mastery in the kumite ring or the kata performance than natural power. They must rely more on Sanchin power in /pushing tossing their bunkai partners.
It seems that this could have some residual implications in the ultimate contribution to karate and certainly to teaching. Women can better appreciate it when things don't come easily.
This all said, not respecting that Uechi karate was never intended to be practiced by women!
JohnC
-
Jackie Olsen
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
- Contact:
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Lori-San,
I didn't jump in to answer because your question deserved some deep thinking. When I first became aware of Sensei Mattson's Uechi-Ryu Forum on the Net, I asked him where were the women of Uechi-Ryu and what was their history. He told me that there's not much written about the "pioneers," although in Sensei Mattson's and Sensei Moulton's books, several women have contributed articles. I remember hearing of Joan Neide. I know of Sensei Peggy Hess because I met her at the Kalamazoo Summer Camp one year. At my dojo, I am the 3rd Black Belt woman in Sensei Arch's 33 years of Karate ... (we're all active, though separated by either miles or family duties which prohibit training together). Other than that, I know the history/lineage of men in this style much better, and that is a sad commentary.
I've been taught by my spiritual path that energetically each woman must come to know the male warrior inside, while each man must know his female warrior. In a matriarchal society (of which their are few, if any, in this day and age), I understand that if the men want to go to war, they consult the women first. If the Grandmothers say, "NO" ... the men won't fight period. If this were true today, what would happen, I wonder?
In the balance of male and female enegies I would like to think that we can complement each other ... as long as women don't get into being one of the boys, but draw instead on our inherent "soft power" that can permeate into every nook and cranny with an unyielding determination, intent and focus of the task at hand. Perhaps we can mirror the flexible willow tree to the strong oak. The oak tree when it becomes too rigid may crack or break in two. The willow can show the softness of flowing like a river with techniques, while the oak can lend stability and "staying power" to the often fragile willow. As a woman, I subscribe to running with the wolves and allowing the wildness and naturalness to emerge.
I am grateful for the men in my dojo, those on this forum (Van Canna, Evan, Gary, JD, Tony, the Davids, John, Allen, Sensei Mattson, Rich, Jason, Bill, and others) who strongly show me the ways of reality based training. I admire your strength, your minds/thinking, and your passion for our Art.
To the women who have gone before me, I say "thank you," for helping pave the way. Perhaps my acceptance by the men came a little easier because of your dedication, perseverance, and power.
As for my role, to echo John's thoughts ... I hope that I am a good kareteka and teacher to others. To me Uechi-ryu is my way, my art, my passion. Take away that, and you take away who I am.
Domo to all past, present and future masters and students,
In beauty,
Jackie
[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited 05-27-99).]
I didn't jump in to answer because your question deserved some deep thinking. When I first became aware of Sensei Mattson's Uechi-Ryu Forum on the Net, I asked him where were the women of Uechi-Ryu and what was their history. He told me that there's not much written about the "pioneers," although in Sensei Mattson's and Sensei Moulton's books, several women have contributed articles. I remember hearing of Joan Neide. I know of Sensei Peggy Hess because I met her at the Kalamazoo Summer Camp one year. At my dojo, I am the 3rd Black Belt woman in Sensei Arch's 33 years of Karate ... (we're all active, though separated by either miles or family duties which prohibit training together). Other than that, I know the history/lineage of men in this style much better, and that is a sad commentary.
I've been taught by my spiritual path that energetically each woman must come to know the male warrior inside, while each man must know his female warrior. In a matriarchal society (of which their are few, if any, in this day and age), I understand that if the men want to go to war, they consult the women first. If the Grandmothers say, "NO" ... the men won't fight period. If this were true today, what would happen, I wonder?
In the balance of male and female enegies I would like to think that we can complement each other ... as long as women don't get into being one of the boys, but draw instead on our inherent "soft power" that can permeate into every nook and cranny with an unyielding determination, intent and focus of the task at hand. Perhaps we can mirror the flexible willow tree to the strong oak. The oak tree when it becomes too rigid may crack or break in two. The willow can show the softness of flowing like a river with techniques, while the oak can lend stability and "staying power" to the often fragile willow. As a woman, I subscribe to running with the wolves and allowing the wildness and naturalness to emerge.
I am grateful for the men in my dojo, those on this forum (Van Canna, Evan, Gary, JD, Tony, the Davids, John, Allen, Sensei Mattson, Rich, Jason, Bill, and others) who strongly show me the ways of reality based training. I admire your strength, your minds/thinking, and your passion for our Art.
To the women who have gone before me, I say "thank you," for helping pave the way. Perhaps my acceptance by the men came a little easier because of your dedication, perseverance, and power.
As for my role, to echo John's thoughts ... I hope that I am a good kareteka and teacher to others. To me Uechi-ryu is my way, my art, my passion. Take away that, and you take away who I am.
Domo to all past, present and future masters and students,
In beauty,
Jackie
[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited 05-27-99).]
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Jackie -san ,
Your words epitomize the image and credo of the sophisticated European woman I am more familiar with !
This is for you : < There are a few things that never go out of style , and a feminine woman is one of them ! And no one knows like a feminine woman how to say things which are at once gentle and deep >
Yours was a most wonderful post !
Peace ,
------------------
Van Canna
Your words epitomize the image and credo of the sophisticated European woman I am more familiar with !
This is for you : < There are a few things that never go out of style , and a feminine woman is one of them ! And no one knows like a feminine woman how to say things which are at once gentle and deep >
Yours was a most wonderful post !
Peace ,
------------------
Van Canna
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Jackie,
Yours are words that touch. I do often speak about "reality based" because that is a concern of what I do for work and where I work. My martial arts practice has that as a concern. But really this is not enough to keep me in the practice. My practice, hopefully, at a deeper level, is really about finding the Way. On this level, the practice is really to discover how to act with integrity and honesty and to bring that discovery and understanding to all other aspects of my life.
I am sorry I can't speak about leadership, female or male. I really don't what that means except to act with integrity and honesty, regardless of whether others follow the lead or not.
Jackie, I can relate well to your metaphor of the Willow and the Oak. In my small training group, there are two women. I enjoy working with them. I enjoy their discovery and development of the strength and the power within. And, I share John's observation that men may come to this practice with more power and fighting ability that have little to do with the practice of Uechi. While that natural power is to be respected, it doesn't hold me in awe for it will inevitably fade. On the other hand, as I have mentioned in the past, the ability of some men like a Ghandi, a Mandela, or King to forsake that power, with their lives on the line, for a softer way is for me awesome. That takes courage in a way similar to the women who make the effort to forego when needed, perhaps, of a natural softness.
david
Yours are words that touch. I do often speak about "reality based" because that is a concern of what I do for work and where I work. My martial arts practice has that as a concern. But really this is not enough to keep me in the practice. My practice, hopefully, at a deeper level, is really about finding the Way. On this level, the practice is really to discover how to act with integrity and honesty and to bring that discovery and understanding to all other aspects of my life.
I am sorry I can't speak about leadership, female or male. I really don't what that means except to act with integrity and honesty, regardless of whether others follow the lead or not.
Jackie, I can relate well to your metaphor of the Willow and the Oak. In my small training group, there are two women. I enjoy working with them. I enjoy their discovery and development of the strength and the power within. And, I share John's observation that men may come to this practice with more power and fighting ability that have little to do with the practice of Uechi. While that natural power is to be respected, it doesn't hold me in awe for it will inevitably fade. On the other hand, as I have mentioned in the past, the ability of some men like a Ghandi, a Mandela, or King to forsake that power, with their lives on the line, for a softer way is for me awesome. That takes courage in a way similar to the women who make the effort to forego when needed, perhaps, of a natural softness.
david
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
This is some of the best stuff, word for word, in every post, I have ever seen on the Uechi forums. Lori, the DH Lawrence quote is worthy of memorization. John, please tell me more about kinza. Jackie, as Van and Gary will attest, I study the feminine as well as masculine warrior ethics. Am I mistaken, or was the Crane methodology pioneered by women as well as men? And, weren't the early Korean martial artists mentored by nuns? Domo to you, and I hope to meet you at summer camp. And David, you are frankly fascinating, now that I've seen you spar. We're about the same size, I believe. While I may not have the lightning reflexes I observed in your technique, I can at least aspire to your mental/emotional/physical breadth and quickness. And Van, enigmatic Uechi man. Live long!
Michael
Michael
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Michael -san ,
You are thoroughly " Au Fait " in these matters !
The beautiful sentiments expressed here by lori et al seem to bond us all together holding hands under the mills of God slowly grinding out our destinies !
Yet , as the stormy billows of these fineries cudgel one's brains , we shall forever feel as light , useless , idle , wavering and changeable leaves , which , as they dance in life's maelstrom , seek the delivering whispering winds of God making them part of the oak !
------------------
Van Canna
You are thoroughly " Au Fait " in these matters !
The beautiful sentiments expressed here by lori et al seem to bond us all together holding hands under the mills of God slowly grinding out our destinies !
Yet , as the stormy billows of these fineries cudgel one's brains , we shall forever feel as light , useless , idle , wavering and changeable leaves , which , as they dance in life's maelstrom , seek the delivering whispering winds of God making them part of the oak !
------------------
Van Canna
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Jackie:
Always a pleasure to read the posts of a true wordsmith! More please!
Michael:
It is my understanding that kinza is focusing on the finer points in kata, waza, etc. It's breaking down moves to smaller and smaller detail, rather than focusing on the flow, or overall picture.
It's the fulcrum of martial heavy lifting, so to speak.
I was trying to suggest that the legacy of women in karate might be they must focus more on the "fulcrum" to get the job done. Perhaps this can lead to more elegant karate and teaching.
JohnC
Always a pleasure to read the posts of a true wordsmith! More please!
Michael:
It is my understanding that kinza is focusing on the finer points in kata, waza, etc. It's breaking down moves to smaller and smaller detail, rather than focusing on the flow, or overall picture.
It's the fulcrum of martial heavy lifting, so to speak.
I was trying to suggest that the legacy of women in karate might be they must focus more on the "fulcrum" to get the job done. Perhaps this can lead to more elegant karate and teaching.
JohnC
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Lori:
You must have changed the bait, 'cause we're biting now!
JohnC
You must have changed the bait, 'cause we're biting now!
JohnC
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natalie lane
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: dartmouth, ns canada
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Jackie...beautiful...thank you...
-
Jackie Olsen
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
- Contact:
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Van Canna
Thank you ... you have touched my heart and poured a gentle rain upon my soul ...
David ... "Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful." Samuel Johnson
I respect and honor you for seeking and living your truth with integrity and knowledge.
Knight Thanks for your comments. I didn't know that about the Nuns ... fascinating. Do you have a book or aritcle that talks about this? I hope to meet you, soon, too!
JohnC & Natalie ... Thanks ... nice to hear from you again! I appreciate this forum so much, as it helps me connect with those who are of like mind and spirit. And, there's enough spice and differences to keep it interesting!
------------------
In Beauty,
Jackie
[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited 05-28-99).]
Thank you ... you have touched my heart and poured a gentle rain upon my soul ...
David ... "Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful." Samuel Johnson
I respect and honor you for seeking and living your truth with integrity and knowledge.
Knight Thanks for your comments. I didn't know that about the Nuns ... fascinating. Do you have a book or aritcle that talks about this? I hope to meet you, soon, too!
JohnC & Natalie ... Thanks ... nice to hear from you again! I appreciate this forum so much, as it helps me connect with those who are of like mind and spirit. And, there's enough spice and differences to keep it interesting!
------------------
In Beauty,
Jackie
[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited 05-28-99).]
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Jackie,
The Hwa Rang (Flowering Youth) were formally presented to King Chin-hung in Silla (Korea) in 576 BC. The Buddhist nuns who were the spiritual leaders of the Hwa Rang were called Won Hwa (Original Flower). Some mythic accounts wrongfully name a single nun Won Hwa; in fact they were a group. Anyway, the Hwa Rang were chosen at birth to become spiritual warriors. They studied Nei Ching (an ancient book explaining ki) and were reputed to perform many supernatural acts. The Hwa Rang went on to develop pressure point combat, sword and bow skills, and the softer martial form Yu Sul, great grandfather of Jujitsu. They also developed Su Bak, later known as Tae Kyon, written in Chinese characters meaning "push shoulder." (Anyone thinking of Sanchin yet?)
I like a book called "The Warrior is Silent" by Scott Shaw, Ph.D. It has a much more detailed history, a section on meditation, one on ki, and finally a fantastic section on "Refining the Physical Disciplines."
Cordially,
Michael
The Hwa Rang (Flowering Youth) were formally presented to King Chin-hung in Silla (Korea) in 576 BC. The Buddhist nuns who were the spiritual leaders of the Hwa Rang were called Won Hwa (Original Flower). Some mythic accounts wrongfully name a single nun Won Hwa; in fact they were a group. Anyway, the Hwa Rang were chosen at birth to become spiritual warriors. They studied Nei Ching (an ancient book explaining ki) and were reputed to perform many supernatural acts. The Hwa Rang went on to develop pressure point combat, sword and bow skills, and the softer martial form Yu Sul, great grandfather of Jujitsu. They also developed Su Bak, later known as Tae Kyon, written in Chinese characters meaning "push shoulder." (Anyone thinking of Sanchin yet?)
I like a book called "The Warrior is Silent" by Scott Shaw, Ph.D. It has a much more detailed history, a section on meditation, one on ki, and finally a fantastic section on "Refining the Physical Disciplines."
Cordially,
Michael
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
jackie, Michael,
Thanks for the nice words. I tend to be a bit embarassed by these and not respond when they are given. (fraud syndrome. Mike you should analyze me.)
I like the info on the Korean arts. This is one of the martial arts areas that I don't seem to have an interest in. A prejudice I developed from my tournament years. Anyway, I lent a book out to someone (Who? wish they would return it.) that you, Michael, may be interested in reading if you have not already. It's titled, Living the Martial Way, by (?) Forrest. Forrest is a high ranking TKD practitioner and an Air Force officer.
Regards,
david
Thanks for the nice words.
I tend to be a bit embarassed by these and not respond when they are given. (fraud syndrome. Mike you should analyze me.)I like the info on the Korean arts. This is one of the martial arts areas that I don't seem to have an interest in. A prejudice I developed from my tournament years. Anyway, I lent a book out to someone (Who? wish they would return it.) that you, Michael, may be interested in reading if you have not already. It's titled, Living the Martial Way, by (?) Forrest. Forrest is a high ranking TKD practitioner and an Air Force officer.
Regards,
david
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Jackie Olsen
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
- Contact:
Women of Uechi, D.H. Lawrence and politics
Michael-san ...
Thanks for the info. I plan on ordering the book today ... that is a fascinating account!
Regards,
Jackie
Thanks for the info. I plan on ordering the book today ... that is a fascinating account!
Regards,
Jackie
