Courtesy, Respect, and Scandal Mongers

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Lori
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Courtesy, Respect, and Scandal Mongers

Post by Lori »

Seems like this can always be a timely topic, especially when it comes to the genders!

When I was a mere guppy in the dojo, I was taught that the first rule of the dojo was respect. This was to apply to my seniors as well as to my fellow karateka, and as new people joined the dojo, to the lower ranks as well. It went without saying that this extended beyond our own school, to other schools, styles, and disciplines. As I became more active in the martial arts, eventually teaching and running my own school, the inevitable politics became more apparent to me, and the lack of respect that runs rampant there is not really the topic of this thread, (That one was covered in the D.H. Lawrence quote.) although it is related.

The reason I bring it up now is partially in response to the great thread we have going on males and females working out together. (Continued from the D.H. Lawrence quote)

I noted in my last post on the other thread some of the issues I've seen, but there are another set of circumstances dealing with the courtesy issue that I'd like to bring up here.

Any time you have men and women working out together in such a physically intimate art - gender differences are highlighted no matter how much you try to reduce them. Fact remains, you cannot hit a female in the chest the way you can hit a male. Strikes to the groin hurt on both sides, but that is not the point. Differences in natural upper body strength, muscle development, and all kinds of issues have been brought up in this forum and on others, and as much as we might like to think we gender has no place in the dojo, it will always be an issue.

With respect and courtesy, these differences can turn into learning for both sides.

Yet there is some teasing and humor, as I said in the last thread, and the point again is the courtesy to keep it tasteful (mostly anyway! Image )and not go too far.

I know and have heard of other dojos where this does not happen, where women are treated as second class citizens, or as sexual objects.

I've heard of dojo-born romances that sometimes result in happy unions and even marriage - Glasheen sensei has proclaimed himself the "proud papa" of more than one of these! As for dojo born romance - that's another thread!

I've heard some of the stories from the 60's and 70's where many women joined a dojo simply as a sexual opportunity.

I've also heard too many stories about women getting their rank by who they sleep with. Maybe a few are true, but I'd venture a guess that most are born of jealousy and not of fact.

Sure, a few wild things happen at a camp, or a function, or some type of situation where men and women are training hard, and playing hard afterward. This is not limited to karate functions. But is not what consenting adults do on their own time their own business?

OK, if they are blatantly acting immorally in public, and are supposed to be examples as seniors, then I might have a problem with it. But what about these stories that "so and so did this with so and so" etc. etc. ad nauseum? Ever notice that these things proliferate whenever a political issue arrises?

What kind of respect is it when these stories are perpetuated???

There are too many "stories" relating to the gender gap. On the roundtable, mention has been made of men "hitting on" women and vice versa. Often a woman has to show incredibly physical prowess before she earns respect. Even then, rumors start. Small fry and white belts are not immune either. Anytime men and women work together it seems, the "juicy gossip" is a hot item behind the scenes. I've even been accused (not within my own dojo of course) of having an intimate relationship with my own sensei, with whom I am very close, and who is now my business partner. Why is it that a female cannot be friends with someone in the martial arts world without having sex with them? (At least according to the scandal mongers!) And even for those that do, what kind of low-life pond scum needs to perpetuate this kind of gossip? Is this the respect we espouse in the martial arts?

I've heard some real whoppers; some amazing tales of female karateka and seniors, of seniors "getting girls" for other visiting seniors, you name it. Rumors or truth, I choose not to perpetuate them, and try to extract myself from conversations where this comes up. But it seems that the "Enquirer" underground is alive and well in the karate world, and this is another hurdle that women will have to face as we become more active in the world of budo.

I like the quote: "people who live in glass houses..."

And even if you don't live in a glass house, what is the point of slandering fellow karateka? Is this part of the courtesy and respect that Kanei Sensei wrote in his "dojo rules of conduct?"

Or should it be translated as "respect only those who follow your political agenda"...

How incredibly sad!

As women make their way in the martial arts world - how can we find a way to extend the concept of "respect" to both genders? To our own and to the other as well?

Peace, courtesy, and respect,
Lori
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gmattson
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Post by gmattson »

Well said Lori.

There is no question that men and women acted differently in the past than they do today. I don't think anyone should boast of their boorish 60s-70s behavior, nor should we dredge up the past to justify present behavior on the part of either men or women.

Lets focus on today's problems in this area. . . and we know they exist. . . and let the early years of Uechi-ryu join Woodstock, Freelove, communes and Easy Rider!


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GEM
Shelly King

Courtesy, Respect, and Scandal Mongers

Post by Shelly King »

Well said Lori

Unfortunatly it has been my experience that anytime you have men and women who work closely together and become close friends because of it, there has always been people who assume there is more going on than just friendship. I always figured it was because they weren't able to see the opposite sex as anything other than objects. I went to school with a girl who suffered through 5 years of engineering school not because she wanted to be an engineer but because she wanted an engineer for a husband. As for the dojo, I have trouble seeing why anyone would put all the work into training just to pick up dates. After all, that is an awful lot of getting hit on just to get "hit on". Who said engineers don't have a sense of humor! As for respect, it is much easier lost than gained.

Just a thought...

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Shelly
Sue
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Post by Sue »

Good Topic!
As you've said, this issue is not limited to the world of martial arts. There've been enough stories over the past few years of inappropriate coaching situations.
Yes, I think, we will always have rumors. It's human nature. It seems to fall to the sensei of the dojo, to set the tone and draw the line.
There may be some things we could do as a style and organization to reduce at least some of the rumors. Board exams for at least the higher kyu's might reduce, if not eliminate some of the favoritism comments. They then become harder to organize and more expensive unfortunately, especially for the smaller or more remote dojo's.
I've certainly partaken in my share of joking, teasing and ribbing. Give and take. It's one of the enjoyments of participating in a challenging activity with a group of people. Sometimes there is no joking or teasing involved though, and when it's someone you can't just give a stern word to, it gets sticky. Having an official and confidential contact for anyone truely experiencing problems might be helpful. I've been in the situation of receiving unwanted attention from a sensei (not Uechi-Ryu) and felt I had no one to turn to. So I quit. This same contact could be made aware of a dojo which seems to generate more than the usual amount of rumors, and at least check it out. This may all be way too complicated, though.
I agree, women who join karate to catch a man must be nuts, there's got to be an easier way! Some don't tend to do much for their own image anyway, let alone other karate women, (eg. participating in a tournament with nothing on but a loose fitting gi). Fair enough, they are all adults and responsible for their own actions, but others are responsible for their style's and their dojo's image.

Sue
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

This topic is one that is indeed relevant outside the dojo. And females aren't the only "victims."

ON THE ONE HAND.... I have both men and women working for me. On occasion a woman feels a need to talk to me about an "uncomfortable situation." Fortunately these have only been minor problems, but they are very real and of significant concern to the individual experiencing it. And on occasion, individuals have been fired for inappropriate behavior in our company (although not connected with my unit). Good!

ON THE OTHER HAND... It's not unusual for me to have close friends who happen to be female. I grew up with a twin who for a long time was my closest confidante. I've had several very close friends at work who happen to be female. And for whatever reason, this seems to generate rumors.

The first time it happened, I didn't worry about it too much. The rumor was pretty basic: Bill and so-and-so spend lots of time together. Must be something going on. Isn't it inappropriate that... But the second time, the rumors were particularly vicious. This second individual was a star worker in a phone unit with impeccable work-related statistics. She was...perfect. She got lots of praise. And she garnered a lot of jealousy from the petty who did not do as well. One day I had someone come up to me with a very detailed rumor with names, dates, places, who said what to whom, problems I was having with my wife, etc, etc. It really shook me. It was the kind of rumor that could do damage given the wrong audience.

But I got the last laughs. In the first instance, that woman recently "came out of the closet." Really! I'm going to be her "master of ceremonies" at her wedding next year. In the second instance, well one day I brought in an ultrasound of my son-to-be at about three months to show my co-workers. I never thought anything of it; I was about to be a father again. My secretary posted it near her desk. Some time during the day I heard a woman say "How could his wife be pregnant? They're divorced!"

Gotta love it!

- Bill
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lori macleod-doyle
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Post by lori macleod-doyle »

Hi Lori,
I've just been watching the news and it appears hurricane Floyd is heading for Florida. I don't know which part of the state you live in but I hope you are away from the path and that you and your family are safe. Take care and I hope you're back on line soon.

Lori M-D
Lori
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Courtesy, Respect, and Scandal Mongers

Post by Lori »

Hi Lori,

Thanks for the inquiry! We are on the East coast of Florida and on Tuesday we were on the direct path of Floyd - we spent a couple of very tense days preparing to lose everything we have!

We did evacuate and have returned to very little damage (only lost a tree) and power was finally restored as of last night - so we are trying to get back to routine.

Back online now and hopefully I'll be able to come up with a few posts in between taking boards off the windows and putting things back in place.

I'm also enjoying catching up on discussions I missed. Thanks for your contributions!

Peace,
Lori


[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 09-18-99).]
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lori macleod-doyle
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Post by lori macleod-doyle »

Glad to hear that you and yours are safe and well. We thought we would be getting a piece of Floyd up here on the Canadian side of the border but all we got was a little rain and some wind. Can't imagion what it must be like to wait out a real storm of that magnitude. We may not have the best weather up here but at least it won't kill ya!! Take care and good luck with the clean up.

Lori M-D
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