This past Thursday - an issue came up that hit very close to home - and my concern is high - so I'm posting this simultaneously on the Self-defense, Women's and Kid's forums - so that I get as much feedback as possible - it relates to all three forums - specifically for parents and children.
Thursday last - at my daughter's high school - a disgruntled student was overheard threatening to take teachers and students hostage by gunpoint - the students who overheard reported it to school officials and an investigation resulting in the arrest of the threatening student ensued...
Letters were sent home that downplay the incident considerably in comparison to media reports and student accounts... I'm sure legal issues had a lot to do with the phrasing of the letter. With regards to advice from DeBecker's latest, Protecting the Gift, he gives a list of concerns to address in a letter to the school about their security measures - to this point the school seems to comply with most if not all of his questions/recommendations - but my reason for this post is this:
After hearing about this incident - I discussed with my daughter what she would do if she heard gunfire at her school during various times - while in a classroom, in the hallway, at lunch, etc. She initially had no ideas - which alerted me how much we get complacent living in the relatively "safe" community that we do - even though she is bombarded by my constant referrals to DeBecker and other self-defense materials, classes and discussions - the topic of what to do if faced with a serious situation at school does not seem to be well addressed!
My recommendations to her were these:
If hearing gunfire while in a classroom - get to the floor - crawl under a desk - try to get the classroom door locked and lights out - pull the fire alarm if possible - and maybe even barricade the door and windows with student desks if the gunfire isn't close.
If hearing gunfire in the hallways - get into the nearest room and lock every single door accessing that room - same thing about the alarm, lights and desks...
I told her in that case not to unlock the door once getting there - but what about other students needing refuge? Unlock it and let them in?
If the gunfire is near - duck and cover immediately - hide in a closet - get out of sight.
That's as far as we got - we were faced with more questions than answers!
If it can happen at Columbine - it can happen anywhere...
What do we tell our kids to do if faced with a shooter at school?
What should teachers be prepared to do?
Any input welcome!
Peace,
Lori
School Shootings
Moderator: Available
School Shootings
Hi Lori,
this is a concern of mine also...
I'm on our local school emergency committee in an advisory position about this issue and feel helpless in the face of the reality...
our schools here in BC are totally open. No one is allowed to be armed. The nearest police station is 5 blocks away but they follow the US modle of no rushing into a hostage situation, no matter how much gunfire is going on.
It's possible that the schools and school districts have (covertly) decided that if they make a decision about this issue and something goes wrong with their choice that they will be liable for having made "the wrong" decision, so they are avoiding making any decision!
I've decided that the only proper decision is to stop such incidents before they get into the school. Any school willing to spend the money can do this but we are in a time of cutbacks to education, here. Door monitors, panic buton door closures and locking systems, and a patrol with sniffer dogs is all it would take. This could all be very low key and the sniffer dogs could also act like school mascots, meeting and greeting everyone as they arrive, very friendly and approachable, until they smell gunpowder, gun oil, gasoline or explosive.
Anway, I've convinced them to have a "leave the school and scatter' alarm to avoid being trapped or gathered into a field of fire like a fire alarm wold do, along with a 'lockdown' alarm for areas too close to the line of fire. Little things first I guess.
I hope this thread gets some good responses and advice we can use realistically.
------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man
this is a concern of mine also...
I'm on our local school emergency committee in an advisory position about this issue and feel helpless in the face of the reality...
our schools here in BC are totally open. No one is allowed to be armed. The nearest police station is 5 blocks away but they follow the US modle of no rushing into a hostage situation, no matter how much gunfire is going on.
It's possible that the schools and school districts have (covertly) decided that if they make a decision about this issue and something goes wrong with their choice that they will be liable for having made "the wrong" decision, so they are avoiding making any decision!
I've decided that the only proper decision is to stop such incidents before they get into the school. Any school willing to spend the money can do this but we are in a time of cutbacks to education, here. Door monitors, panic buton door closures and locking systems, and a patrol with sniffer dogs is all it would take. This could all be very low key and the sniffer dogs could also act like school mascots, meeting and greeting everyone as they arrive, very friendly and approachable, until they smell gunpowder, gun oil, gasoline or explosive.
Anway, I've convinced them to have a "leave the school and scatter' alarm to avoid being trapped or gathered into a field of fire like a fire alarm wold do, along with a 'lockdown' alarm for areas too close to the line of fire. Little things first I guess.
I hope this thread gets some good responses and advice we can use realistically.
------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man
School Shootings
Lori asks: “What do we tell our kids to do if faced with a shooter at school?
What should teachers be prepared to do?”
Lori, your initial recommendations make sense, but let’s listen to some top-notch experts:
1] Barricading and hiding under tables may still make you a sitting duck as a crazed killer will systematically comb classrooms and shoot everyone he finds cowering! First be sure your kids get the “lay of the land” of the school grounds, must be familiar with every nook and cranny of the building so under stress they have a mental image of possible escape routes!
The key to survival is “INTENSE CONCENTRATION ON ESCAPE” Very few people risk trying to escape because of paralyzing fear or the false notion that by trying to hide they will be spared!
People must train to deal with fear by channeling it into reactive decisions, and although that doesn’t guarantee survival from a crazed killer, studies have shown that proactive response gives better odds than everyone around you in that moment of terror!
Mindset well in advance to block out fear, pain, confusion, and channel body and mind into one survival aim –ESCAPE-
“That kind of concentration begins with an attitude of willingness to take extreme risks during extreme danger”
Keep your response immediate, direct, and explosive! To wit: 1984, Mac Donald’s San Ysidro Ca., James Huberty walks in with three high power guns and starts to shoot everyone. Families cowered under tables, fear paralyzed everyone, and he reloaded all three weapons three separate times while prowling the room finishing off anyone he found still alive. Parents died as they lay there protecting their children!
Contrast: 1991-Killeen Texas- Luby’s cafeteria-identical massacre! Tommy Vaughn , having lunch with friends, exploded into action by heaving a table at a plate glass window. The table bounced off, Tommy, without hesitation, charged the window with his body shattering the glass! Although badly cut, he escaped saving his life and those of others who followed him to safety!
Tell the kids to mindset this reaction and know before hand about rooms with windows on the ground floor, objects that could be used to ram through windows, or other escape routes! Even jumping from a second story window might be better than shot in the face in cold blood!
References: Sanford Strong- “Strong on defense”
2] Massad Ayoob wrote in the wall street journal that in Israel Armed teachers are common and attacks on schools are non existent! US school shootings, where an armed teacher was instrumental in stopping or delaying the carnage, have been documented but ignored by the cowardly press!
He writes that although the problem cannot alone be solved by arming teachers, trained, responsible adults armed with concealed weapons could be a viable solution!
He writes that for the concept to work armed teachers should be volunteers who pass strict psychological testing and go through appropriate training! Not much different than school employees knowing how to operate fire extinguishers, or knowing CPR etc.! The guns should be concealed and which personnel are armed should be revealed only on a need to know basis!
“ Yes, professional educators carrying lethal weapons is probably unthinkable to some, but previously unthinkable dangers can sometimes be neutralized by previously unthinkable defenses” [Mas Ayoob]
But what to do in countries forbidding the carrying of firearms by law abiding people?
Sochin's ideas are sound! But we all know all of this will be ignored and debated ad infinitum while the senseless killing will go on and on!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 10-03-99).]
What should teachers be prepared to do?”
Lori, your initial recommendations make sense, but let’s listen to some top-notch experts:
1] Barricading and hiding under tables may still make you a sitting duck as a crazed killer will systematically comb classrooms and shoot everyone he finds cowering! First be sure your kids get the “lay of the land” of the school grounds, must be familiar with every nook and cranny of the building so under stress they have a mental image of possible escape routes!
The key to survival is “INTENSE CONCENTRATION ON ESCAPE” Very few people risk trying to escape because of paralyzing fear or the false notion that by trying to hide they will be spared!
People must train to deal with fear by channeling it into reactive decisions, and although that doesn’t guarantee survival from a crazed killer, studies have shown that proactive response gives better odds than everyone around you in that moment of terror!
Mindset well in advance to block out fear, pain, confusion, and channel body and mind into one survival aim –ESCAPE-
“That kind of concentration begins with an attitude of willingness to take extreme risks during extreme danger”
Keep your response immediate, direct, and explosive! To wit: 1984, Mac Donald’s San Ysidro Ca., James Huberty walks in with three high power guns and starts to shoot everyone. Families cowered under tables, fear paralyzed everyone, and he reloaded all three weapons three separate times while prowling the room finishing off anyone he found still alive. Parents died as they lay there protecting their children!
Contrast: 1991-Killeen Texas- Luby’s cafeteria-identical massacre! Tommy Vaughn , having lunch with friends, exploded into action by heaving a table at a plate glass window. The table bounced off, Tommy, without hesitation, charged the window with his body shattering the glass! Although badly cut, he escaped saving his life and those of others who followed him to safety!
Tell the kids to mindset this reaction and know before hand about rooms with windows on the ground floor, objects that could be used to ram through windows, or other escape routes! Even jumping from a second story window might be better than shot in the face in cold blood!
References: Sanford Strong- “Strong on defense”
2] Massad Ayoob wrote in the wall street journal that in Israel Armed teachers are common and attacks on schools are non existent! US school shootings, where an armed teacher was instrumental in stopping or delaying the carnage, have been documented but ignored by the cowardly press!
He writes that although the problem cannot alone be solved by arming teachers, trained, responsible adults armed with concealed weapons could be a viable solution!
He writes that for the concept to work armed teachers should be volunteers who pass strict psychological testing and go through appropriate training! Not much different than school employees knowing how to operate fire extinguishers, or knowing CPR etc.! The guns should be concealed and which personnel are armed should be revealed only on a need to know basis!
“ Yes, professional educators carrying lethal weapons is probably unthinkable to some, but previously unthinkable dangers can sometimes be neutralized by previously unthinkable defenses” [Mas Ayoob]
But what to do in countries forbidding the carrying of firearms by law abiding people?
Sochin's ideas are sound! But we all know all of this will be ignored and debated ad infinitum while the senseless killing will go on and on!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 10-03-99).]
School Shootings
Kevin-san,
Good points! I have the dubious distinction of being involved in a first year charter school, and am active in formulating many of the policies and procedures of this school. We have an incredible set of concerned and actively participating parents, and a very small budget. Even without many $$$, there are many safety issues that can be addressed - which in the throes of brand-new school setup are being acknowledged, but not much progress is being made yet.
At this point I have a safety plan for my classroom, and have instructed my students on the same. In the event of an emergency we have two windows we can exit through, and they know where we are supposed to meet in case of an evacuation for any reason. However, I have not practiced this yet - because there is some concern from the administration about unduly alarming the parents. This is in the face of a gang shooting in broad daylight in a convenience store about a mile from the school.
You raise a very good point about fire drills vs. safety drills - school boards, for all their posturing on student safety, would do well to stand up and take notice of these numbers - and implement a plan instead of "researching and discussing" it.
Van-san:
Thank you for your excellent and informative input. I've shared your post with my daughter and we've discussed scenarios and alternatives - with the emphasis being on escape rather than hiding. I've also implemented the same focus on escape in my own classroom safety plan.
As for your second point - armed teachers make a lot of sense the way you describe it. While some may say that the topic of armed teachers describes a sad state of affairs, I would rather see a proactive response to an already violent society, and leave "de Nile" on the map of Africa.
Sochin-san:
I share your frustration! I started this thread in hopes of receiving some of the same information you are looking for... we've got some - I hope we get some more.
Escape and scatter seems to be the best advice so far - and a different sounding alarm sounds like an excellent idea - fire alarms inspire the "orderly line up in the hall" mode - and an emergency lockdown alarm should sound different to start a different response.
My specific situation is very challenging - even for this. Our school is situated within a much larger facility that is unoccupied except for one small church office. While we have all doors locked (able to exit but not enter) except for the one by the school office, there are too many connecting doors and hallways - causing a real security hassle in the event a lockdown is necessary. Anyway - still looking for input.
Very good and important points raised here - thank you all for contributing.
Peace,
Lori
Good points! I have the dubious distinction of being involved in a first year charter school, and am active in formulating many of the policies and procedures of this school. We have an incredible set of concerned and actively participating parents, and a very small budget. Even without many $$$, there are many safety issues that can be addressed - which in the throes of brand-new school setup are being acknowledged, but not much progress is being made yet.
At this point I have a safety plan for my classroom, and have instructed my students on the same. In the event of an emergency we have two windows we can exit through, and they know where we are supposed to meet in case of an evacuation for any reason. However, I have not practiced this yet - because there is some concern from the administration about unduly alarming the parents. This is in the face of a gang shooting in broad daylight in a convenience store about a mile from the school.
You raise a very good point about fire drills vs. safety drills - school boards, for all their posturing on student safety, would do well to stand up and take notice of these numbers - and implement a plan instead of "researching and discussing" it.
Van-san:
Thank you for your excellent and informative input. I've shared your post with my daughter and we've discussed scenarios and alternatives - with the emphasis being on escape rather than hiding. I've also implemented the same focus on escape in my own classroom safety plan.
As for your second point - armed teachers make a lot of sense the way you describe it. While some may say that the topic of armed teachers describes a sad state of affairs, I would rather see a proactive response to an already violent society, and leave "de Nile" on the map of Africa.
Sochin-san:
I share your frustration! I started this thread in hopes of receiving some of the same information you are looking for... we've got some - I hope we get some more.
Escape and scatter seems to be the best advice so far - and a different sounding alarm sounds like an excellent idea - fire alarms inspire the "orderly line up in the hall" mode - and an emergency lockdown alarm should sound different to start a different response.
My specific situation is very challenging - even for this. Our school is situated within a much larger facility that is unoccupied except for one small church office. While we have all doors locked (able to exit but not enter) except for the one by the school office, there are too many connecting doors and hallways - causing a real security hassle in the event a lockdown is necessary. Anyway - still looking for input.
Very good and important points raised here - thank you all for contributing.
Peace,
Lori
-
Kevin Mackie
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
School Shootings
This past summer I served as a member of the superintendant's parent/teacher committee on school violence. We as a representative slice of the community proposed ideas that would help protect our children through such means as monitoring those who enter before with security cameras at the doors and after with visitor badges and challenges to the badgeless and such. (The second was implemented) The school committee, when faced with a desision about spending a mere pitance (I'm talking under $75K in a system with an $18MM budget)on some items, prefered to study the situation futher before committing to any action. (No Nobel prize winners here). The safety committee made the point that as parents and educators, we were about as expert as they come, so what's to study?. They are still debating.
The secondary issue has to do with training for prevention. Recognizing a troubled student and what to do and so forth. There was very little concern about this type of proactive countermeasure. Our school also has played down serious crime up to and including rape allegations. Unbelieveable!
It seems ridiculous that in my youth, we performed many drills where we dove under desks to protect us from a nuclear attack (okay, we laugh now, but back then those bombs could really sting). As Van points out, today there is no training to escape from an assailant. This should be part of the basic student safety training along with fire drills. Go back over your newspapers. When was the last time there were multiple deaths from a fire in a school? Now how about from a shooting?
Kevin
The secondary issue has to do with training for prevention. Recognizing a troubled student and what to do and so forth. There was very little concern about this type of proactive countermeasure. Our school also has played down serious crime up to and including rape allegations. Unbelieveable!
It seems ridiculous that in my youth, we performed many drills where we dove under desks to protect us from a nuclear attack (okay, we laugh now, but back then those bombs could really sting). As Van points out, today there is no training to escape from an assailant. This should be part of the basic student safety training along with fire drills. Go back over your newspapers. When was the last time there were multiple deaths from a fire in a school? Now how about from a shooting?
Kevin
School Shootings
A few more points by safety experts Ed Lovette and Jim Grover:
1] Always have an exit plan; know where the exits are!
2] Know what you can use for cover as you move to the exit.
3] Know the difference between cover and concealment! Cover will conceal and protect you from gunfire; concealment [behind a tall plant for example] will make you vulnerable to gunfire if discovered!
4] Don’t do what everyone else is doing, just because they are doing it. Seek momentary refuge
Then decide what the best course of action is.
5] Do not believe that freezing and getting down is always the best course of action.
6] Do not assume that a fire alarm, explosion or any other ordinary but out of place noise or event /circumstance, is innocent! Move into condition orange and assess! Do not rely solely on vision!
7] Know that coming under fire is a vague confusing situation unlike what is portrayed on television. You cannot immediately identify what it is and where it is coming from unless you have a direct line of vision to the attack.
8] Your teachers will be inexperienced in these types of incidents and may not be counted upon to make sound judgments in a crisis!
9] Expect that panic will cloud your ability to make good decisions quickly. You might, for example, make yourself stand out to the killer, when you really wish to be invisible.
10] Your ability to think, act and make good judgments will deteriorate rapidly under deadly attack with an unknown outcome. This dysfunction is singularly responsible for many deaths in violent incidents.
PS.-- I have discussed number 10 over and over on my forum, but people still believe that under the stress of a street confrontation, they will be in control of themselves as when they are in the dojo wearing a gi! Remember, you will be a totally different person, you will not recognize yourself!
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Van Canna
1] Always have an exit plan; know where the exits are!
2] Know what you can use for cover as you move to the exit.
3] Know the difference between cover and concealment! Cover will conceal and protect you from gunfire; concealment [behind a tall plant for example] will make you vulnerable to gunfire if discovered!
4] Don’t do what everyone else is doing, just because they are doing it. Seek momentary refuge
Then decide what the best course of action is.
5] Do not believe that freezing and getting down is always the best course of action.
6] Do not assume that a fire alarm, explosion or any other ordinary but out of place noise or event /circumstance, is innocent! Move into condition orange and assess! Do not rely solely on vision!
7] Know that coming under fire is a vague confusing situation unlike what is portrayed on television. You cannot immediately identify what it is and where it is coming from unless you have a direct line of vision to the attack.
8] Your teachers will be inexperienced in these types of incidents and may not be counted upon to make sound judgments in a crisis!
9] Expect that panic will cloud your ability to make good decisions quickly. You might, for example, make yourself stand out to the killer, when you really wish to be invisible.
10] Your ability to think, act and make good judgments will deteriorate rapidly under deadly attack with an unknown outcome. This dysfunction is singularly responsible for many deaths in violent incidents.
PS.-- I have discussed number 10 over and over on my forum, but people still believe that under the stress of a street confrontation, they will be in control of themselves as when they are in the dojo wearing a gi! Remember, you will be a totally different person, you will not recognize yourself!
------------------
Van Canna
