Stand By Your Man

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Thu Dec 23, 1999 4:41 pm

I am going to be sexist, hit some hot buttons, yet I want an HONEST answer. Why? Because I am back from the doldrums, and I want to really know the answer to this questions. PLEASE, LADIES ONLY RESPOND. Well, guys, you can respond if an only if a lady has done this for you. No, it is nothing freaky.

The question(s) I have is:

1) If your man was in a fight, and was being beaten by someone, but you knew either from instinct and/or experience, that he was not going to be killed, just thrashed, would you defend him? Say a guy my size (250, 6 feet) is woofing on the average guy (160, 5 feet 9 inches), untrained, and slugs him a couple times in the head and chest. Would you take the big man down?

2) If your untrained man was being confronted by a trained martial artist that you knew you could beat (how you know I'll leave up to you) would you step in to protect your man?

Please think about your honest answer before reading the rest of my new topic.

Okay, continue now.

The reason why I ask is this: life or death situation, okay, the best thing to do is save your mate and worry about male ego later. You would probably pop into that mode anyway. But, a situation that is a "fight, not combat" as Marc Animal MacYoung would put it, really is just a fight, and your man will not die if he is bruised. He may have a black eye, busted lip, some bruises, and hurt pride, but nobody is going to kill him.

Now please, don't tell me that you would never date or marry anyone whose thinking is so shallow/sexist/backwards/etc. that he feels threatened by your training, and so on. No man (with any sense) is going to admit to his karate-training lady that he'd feel bad if she stuck up for him in a fight. In fact, a lot of guys probably don't think that they would feel bad about that, and would tear me up one side and down the other for even asking such a thing.

But, ladies and gentlemen, old fears and social/cultural prejudices are often times subconscious and don't surface until we are under dire stress or in a new situation. And let's face it, most guys are taught that they are the ones to protect their lady.

I am considered by most people I know to be the most liberal/tolerant/colorblind/genderunbiased person they know, and I still have to police myself for thoughts or feelings once in a blue moon. I am thankful that the blue moons are few and far between these days.

So, will someone address this?

Why do I ask? Think about the male ego.

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Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Thu Dec 23, 1999 4:49 pm

Cecil-san:

I would take the big guy out in a heart-beat - ego-smego...

Mary S.

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Lori · Post by **Lori** » Thu Dec 23, 1999 6:32 pm

Nice to see you again Cecil-san!

Welcome back and hope you are having a nice holiday season...

Good questions - and interesting consequences!

I can only share my personal reactions here - some from personal experience, some conjecture. I am sure it will be radically different from woman to woman - as I have a couple friends who think as I do - but most are quite different.

For situation #1 - I had a situation like that before I ever started training. My ex was out-weighed and out-classed by a real obnoxious idiot - (very similar to the descriptions you gave for height and weight) and regardless of the reasons for the fight (actually it may apply here but I may have to make another post as I'm short on time) my ex was getting pummeled even though he was far from giving up. At a point when I saw him in more serious danger (no weapons at this point) I jumped on the back of the big guy and started choking him to get him to back off. Although I earned a few bruises myself and don't know if I would do it again (especially after the divorce

) at the time there was no thought, no planning, no fear, just adrenaline rush and REACTION. I had little to no MA training at the time (just a bit of TKD in high school) and martial arts was not a factor at all in my decision to jump in the fray. I don't believe he was in mortal danger, but he was about to get hurt pretty seriously. On reflection, I don't know if it would have made a difference or not if I was MA trained at the time. I didn't know what to do, or how to do it, but his back was to me, my ex was on the ground and it was easy enough to jump on the guy and try what I could. As for my intervention, I guess it was successful enough to get the big guy off guard and my ex was able to get off the ground and help me out before I got it too bad. That's the short version - it ended ok and for that I'm thankful.

Would I do it again - and for who - good question. If the guy being pummelled was close to me or even just a friend, probably. It's the way I am - I can't stand back and watch something that is unfair especially for someone I know. As for the ego part of it - any male friend of mine should know me well enough to expect me to jump in. Most of the men I associate with are in the martial arts in one form or another anyway. Except for family and they darn well better know me by now.

As for situation #2, that would have to be purely conjecture, as my man is highly trained - in fact I cannot even visualize a situation where he would ever need my help in a confrontation. But if he did, for any reason at all, he knows me well enough to expect my participation, and I don't believe that ego would be a problem; he's proud of me and the way I am and the way I train and teach - even though he has very traditional values. This is not to say that other men would not be threatened - especial non MA trained men with women of "fighting spirit." I can see how it could be very damaging to the male ego to have a woman jump in to defend her man - especially in the aftermath. At the time it may even be detrimental enough to harm the outcome of the situation if he's affronted enough that a "girl" has to come in and save him. Afterward I can see lots of fuel for discontent. Again, that is purely conjecture for me as it would no way apply in my situation, but perhaps some MA trained women with non-MA trained men can help out on this one.

Good topic - I hope that more participate.

Peace,
Lori

Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Thu Dec 23, 1999 6:38 pm

Cecil-san, since no one else seems to be around to "play" I thought I would ellucidate (ack - turning into JD!!) on my response. I would defend and help to defend any loved one against an attack. I would try to stop any act of violence...perhaps not by stepping in on every occasion but I certainly would try to stop it, loved one or not.

If my man was more concerned about "ego" than well-being and safety...he probably wouldn't be "my man" for very long (ego is something I find to have little value in my big book of what is important). I would rather suffer the slings and arrows of his discontent than know I stood by and did nothing.

Also I'm sure you will agree that many confrontations can escalate in the blink of an eye...I'm not sure I would be a good judge of at what point "just a fight" would turn into a "death match".

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Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Fri Dec 24, 1999 5:10 am

Any other responses?

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RickLiebespach · Post by **RickLiebespach** » Sat Dec 25, 1999 4:05 am

(yea I'm a guy - sorry for intruding...)

This one's got me thinking and wondering what I'd do...In that spontaneous moment of group chemical cocktails, what would be effective? Would I even think to shatter a knee?

Rick Liebespach
(I may be yellow, but, one of these days I'll be too green to know better

)

[This message has been edited by RickLiebespach (edited 12-24-99).]

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Sat Dec 25, 1999 6:41 am

I hope nobody thinks that I am trying to discourage women from defending their loved ones. Far from it. But, do we ever stop to ask ourselves these questions? We should, as Van suggests, do it NOW, rather than be in the moment, and go, oh my goodness, why, hey, I--I--I--I just can't do this!

Hey Lori, I hope if you ever see anybody whipping me that you feel free to choke him out for me.

Merry Xmas!

Cecil

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net

Lori · Post by **Lori** » Sat Dec 25, 1999 7:25 am

Cecil-san,

No problem! You can count on me!

These ARE good questions - and no, we probably won't consider them until way after the fact - and to my mind questions like these are an aspect of mindset training - figuring out the what-ifs wherefores and consequences before anything happens - and hopefully nothing will. Ego is closely connected to emotion, and reaction is kindred to emotion as well, so the relationship between ego and the reaction of a partner is a valid question and good topic for discussion. Maybe after the holiday more people/women will have time to give some feedback.

Mary-san:

Seems almost a given response to us doesn't it? But would a man that you jumped in a fray to help truly survive the after-effects on his ego? Van Sensei has enumerated various cases he's investigated where victims of assault suffer intense emotional battering afterwards - to be defended by a woman may play more of a part than we would think - no matter what kind of ego the man has before-hand. Hopefully, we'll never have to find out.

Rick-san:

Feel free to intrude anytime! Part of that journey to green and beyond will involve some self-examination into topics even worse than this... welcome to the more mental side of training! Feel free to start any threads on this forum with questions like what you posted... always a good topic for discussion and interesting to see various sides - and gender influences on those sides, if any.

Merry Christmas to all of you and yours!
and Peace,
Lori

Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Tue Dec 28, 1999 8:04 pm

Lori-san...thought I'd take a little survey on this one over the holidays to see how some of my male friends woud react to me coming to the rescue (all guys surveyed were NKF - non-karate friends). Overall the immediate and majority response was (1) The guy would be more than happy to have me step in...(2) Most would brag about me afterwards ("Oh yeah - that's my baby!!!)...(3) When I fell apart emotionally afterwards or in Van-Sensei's words "the intense emotional battering" (which in all likelihood I would) knowing that I had to hurt someone to protect someone else - they would be there for me.

Have a Happy prostitute prostitute and a Safe and Fun New Year!!!

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Lori · Post by **Lori** » Wed Dec 29, 1999 2:06 am

J.D.-san:

Collin who?

Mary-san:

Interesting poll. It would seem to be the same in my circle of friends/acquaintances... but then again, they know me. I also wonder how much affect a particular region would have on the response: certain areas of the country - and even other countries have more traditional ideals of their "womenfolk" and may feel differently about their entering the fray. Also, certain circles, regardless of region, (like JD perhaps?) still wonder who let us out of the kitchen and allowed us to wear shoes! I've run in to a few of those - and not that I would feel too inclined to help save their butt if it was being "whupped" - but some "90's men" harbor those latent chauvanistic tendencies!

Again, not that it would matter too much during the situation; If anyone can help their fellow man or woman - MA trained or no - I feel we have a moral obligation to do so. Sort out the emotional baggage and backlash after the fact if necessary.

Peace,
Lori

RickLiebespach · Post by **RickLiebespach** » Wed Dec 29, 1999 5:24 am

Here's another answer for the poll...mine.

If I were in need and my "MA girl" saved the day (now there's a stretch...I'm married to a non-combatant non-MA out of shape wife...But I did start that out with an "If" so...)

I'd be two things...
1. grateful, very grateful.
2. driven. driven to improve my own MA/combative skills to the point where I'd not need that help again...shy of a group attack...

I'd also have "US" work on our team skills...I think it would be neat to be in a relationship where we could, and if need be, would work as a team in that regard...then I'd really be proud (of her) and let others know how I really feel about "My MA girl!".

I hope that's not viewed as sexist. I'd really be thrilled that "she" cared enough about me that she'd want to be involved in MA with me...and I'd let everyone know that I'd found that special someone who cared for me, as I care for her....this (studying MA) is just one possible area of expression of love, one for another.

Rick

Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Wed Dec 29, 1999 12:59 pm

Rick, that's just sweet!!!! Nothing like tag-team... :-) Have you shown your wife any self-defence moves, does she have any interest in MA?

Lori-chan....it really was an interesting poll and I was a bit surprised by the responses I got. However, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment "but then again, they know me". I understood that was the essence of Cecil's inquiry. Be there for a loved one? Yes, and even for an acquaintance. However I would probably hesitate in situations where I do not know either combatant. (BTW - I think you are being a bit harsh with JD :-) - at least he tries....)

The self-realization that it would be me who fell apart after the confrontation rather than the one I was protecting caused some soul-searching...and it is very comforting to know that my male friends would be there in my moment of need.

JD-san - what part can I make clearer for you?

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Post by **gmattson** » Wed Dec 29, 1999 2:01 pm

My Susan doesn't study the M.A. either Rick. However, last month a driver tried to sneak into a parking space Susan was heading for. Both cars were positioned so neither could get in. I simply asked Sue to back out and find another space. She got out of the car and gave the other driver a 'look' (stare) right out of a Bruce Lee movie! The other driver put his car into reverse and backrd off!

I've only seen that 'stare' once before. . . and I backed off. . .

I believe Sifu Mooney taught it to her at camp last August!

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GEM

natalie lane · Post by **natalie lane** » Wed Dec 29, 1999 6:53 pm

Well this question has the wheels turning...
My husband does not study any martial art, and never has. He has only gotten himself in a few hockey fights, when he was a teenager, nothing serious.

1)Okay, so he's getting thrashed? Well, I know he can take it since he thrashes himself regularly on his mountain bike.

But if someone is hitting him in the head and chest and I really believe he is getting hurt? Of course I step in! How could you not? And if the tables were turned, he had better step in.

In the last month here, 2 people here have died from beatings. Just because there is no weapon involved does not mean that no one will die. There is no way to know that he would just get beaten and not killed. I would not be willing to take that chance, and I know that my husband wouldn't want to either. He has too much to live for, and although he has a healthy ego, what good would that be if he was dead? At least the ego would heal if it did happen to take any damage.

2)My man confronted by a trained m.a. that I knew I could beat? Well, it's him being confronted. I have confidence in his ability to handle himself. Unless it became similar to situation 1, I would stay out of it.

Just my $0.02

Nat

Greg · Post by **Greg** » Thu Dec 30, 1999 5:08 am

Sensei,

With all due respect, I'd have to guess that Susan taught it to Sifu Mooney!...

To weigh in a bit on the topic - I know Cecil, that the question was posed in terms of physical conflict, and the scenario was a non-trained man and a trained woman. Without blowing the scenario, what do folks think about both being trained? What about the man being the MA and the woman being untrained and nevertheless coming to 'her man's' rescue? (like in all those movie scenes where the hero is fighting off bad guys, but doesn't see one coming up behind him until the female partner conks the bad guy over the head etc.). Movies aside, can you imagine the ego bruising that would likely occur if the "well trained" MA was getting the snot knocked out of him, and his untrained lady finished off the bad guy? Lori, out of curiosity (and if you feel comfortable sharing it), what was your ex's reaction after the fact to your involvement?

As I stated in another post, it seems the key to me is working as a team with prior planning. Even if we can all agree that the 'arm grabbing' described on another thread is undesireable, how many times has figurative 'arm grabbing' (i.e. "come on honey, leave it alone") saved any of us from making an ill considered choice to engage in an avoidable conflict.

In my opinion, balance is the key, and where that balance lies is something that has to be worked out ahead of time. It's all about context. I consider a girlfriend (or any friend, for that matter) pointing out a car skidding down the snowy road towards us while I am driving to be welcome input. However, I don't find someone who jumps around nervously while I am driving, and says "look out" on a regular basis particularly helpful [is that J.D.'s Editor I hear in the background making comments about my driving??] By the same token, I would rather have a 'sensible' woman by my side who knows the 'danger signs' (a la DeBecker or others) and can help to keep us safe than a trained MA who is deliberately or inadvertently likely to get us into a fight.

Rick, I agree that if a trained female (or a male, for that matter) helped to save my ass in a bad situation, I would be grateful. I would also, quite honestly, be embarassed if in my estimation it was a situation that I should have been able to handle by virtue of my training. And Cecil, I know you posed the question as <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

If your man was in a fight, and was being beaten by someone, but you knew either from instinct and/or experience, that he was not going to be killed, just thrashed...

but I am leery of this idea. My assumption is always that if someone is beating on me, he has gone enough past the 'line' that who knows how far he will take it... If I am with someone who has the ability to help out, and they decide not to because they believe I can handle it... well, I hope they are right.

I think that in the aftermath of being rescued by whomever, the tendency of the rescuee is to displace the anger and dissappointment they are feeling towards their adversary (and themeselves) onto the rescuer. "I could have handled it! Why did you have to butt in?!" I do think this ego reaction gets much more complicated when you work in the male/female equation. Lori, I think your questioning whether your survey is 'skewed' because the responders know you is an interesting point. It might be difficult for some to admit it, (perhaps for fear of being found "un-PC"?) but I think it would be a challenge for most men to handle being 'saved' by a female friend, despite some protestations to the contrary!

Hope I didn't lead the thread too far astray!

greg

[This message has been edited by Greg (edited 12-29-99).]