san vs chan

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Raffi Derderian
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san vs chan

Post by Raffi Derderian »

Hi everyone,
I know this is really not martial arts related. However, I have to ask for a little clarification of the san and chan thing.
I believe this was covered a while back and if I recall, isn't the term "chan" only used for little children (girls?) or for a female that you are particularly close to. Again, I could be wrong. The old memory ain't what it used to be. But if I am correct, shouldn't the male members of this site NOT refer to any of the females with the "chan" suffix? To me it seems almost disrespectful.
Raf
maurice richard libby

san vs chan

Post by maurice richard libby »

Raffi,

I'm no expert, but from the old days when I studied Japanese culture and language at the university, you're closer to right than wrong. "Chan" applied to an adult is a term of endearment and intimacy. When I used to hang out with a crowd of Japanese students. I was quite hesitant to use "chan". In fact, there were only two women I ever had the courage to useit with, and I had a terrific crush on one Image.

The rule of thumb: use "chan" only if you would be comfortable calling that person by a pet name or diminuative.

There are those who have more expertise, but that's my take.

with respect,
maurice

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
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[This message has been edited by maurice richard libby (edited February 11, 2000).]
Shelly King

san vs chan

Post by Shelly King »

that's very interesting guys...I never knew the difference. Actually, I assumed that the chan was perhaps the Korean or Chinese equivalent to san. Boy, you learn something knew everyday. Though, I do have the vague memory of reading somewhere that in Japan the men and women actually had two different languages that they used. Any truth to this?

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Shelly
Lori
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san vs chan

Post by Lori »

Raffi-sensei,

Thank you for bringing up this topic! One of the first things I learned in my dojo was rule number one: everything in the martial arts begins and ends with courtesy.

As such, I consider these forums to be an extension of the dojo - and courtesy even more important as we are in an incredibly public venue - representatives of our selves, our styles, and our sensei. On my forum I require respect and courtesy - although the topics push limits at times - as long as we stick to issues and not people, I let it run its course. As for matters of address - I leave that to the individual - as relationships behind the public lines are not discussed here - and whatever manner they feel comfortable using to address contributors is fine with me - as long as it is respectful.

My own personal guidelines for addressing posters are as follows:

Senior rank to me - if I know they are senior to me, and especially if they teach: SENSEI as a suffix. If I do not know the rank of the person involved - I use -san as a matter of respect.

Same or junior rank as me - again the appellation -san out of respect.

My Japanese language training is incredibly limited - but I did learn some time back that the -chan suffix was used only for children or sweet-hearts. So you never will see me use it here - except as a joke one time to a notorious member of our forums - actually I had this very topic in mind when I used it!

This topic surfaced once before - and I believe Gary Sensei explained similar uses of the -san and -chan. I have been referred to as -chan by some who I believe misinterpreted it to mean that -chan was for females. I have not pointed it out - but those understanding the real uses of these courtesy titles may misinterpret. Perhaps this post will clarify that.

As for addressing myself - Lori is fine. No suffix needed.

And if anyone else prefers a specific manner of address, please be sure to clarify once in a while - i.e. "By the way - no "sensei" needed - just call me Joe." or whatever. This may bear repeating once in a while as new members join these forums all the time. For myself, I will most likely use the "sensei" anyway - as I have been told privately that I can refer to some without the "sensei" - but in this public of a forum that is representative of our style and our selves, as I stated above, I will continue to use these manners of address simply out of courtesy. It is the way I would address you if you were in my dojo - therefore I use it here. I do not use them to sound pretentious or whatever else you may consider it - it falls only to respect and I mean no offense by their use. I use it quite often in my daily life - I refer to my adult students this way - to Japanese friends in this manner, even the owners and staff at my favorite Japanese restaurant. So it comes quite natural to me.

Oh - and one more note. No speaker of Japanese would ever refer to themself with a -san or -chan at the end of their signature. It may even be considered poor taste - but that is not our culture so one cannot hold it against anyone! But it is also why I never use "Lori-san" as my signature - even though many address me that way. (It was my title in the dojo for 8 years while I taught with my sensei - only one sensei per dojo as we were taught...) -san is only used as a form of address as I understand it.

I would hope that this does not discourage anyone from posting - all contributors welcome - of any style. If you are not familiar/comfortable with the use of "-san" or "sensei" by all means - don't use it. It is more important to be polite.

Peace,
Lori
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Greg
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san vs chan

Post by Greg »

Shelly,

In Japan there were historically many different ways of speaking depending on the relative social standing of the speakers. I believe some of these were in use in limited social contexts (only among the nobility for example). I am not sure how many of these are still extant in Japan today.

Also, in addition to the points that Lori made about -chan, etc. my understanding is that the -san suffix is appropriately used with the last name only (e.g. "King-san" rather than "Shelly-san").

greg (just "greg")
maurice richard libby

san vs chan

Post by maurice richard libby »

Mr. Greg: You're right about that -san after the first name is like saying "Mr. Greg."

Miss Shelly: actually, it is (was?) more complicated than that. One Japanese teacher told me that there are many different levels of politeness. The more "refined" you are the more politely you speak. There are almost an infinite number of levels of politeness, sort of class related. There are vocabulary that only the Imperial family can use. The more polite you get, the more vague you get. When you are REALLY polite you don't say "I am going" or "I am coming". Instead you use a verb that translates roughly as "I am moving."

There are words only men will use and words only women will use.

Japanese has three different writing systems (kanji, hiragana, and katakana) the second (I think it was ) was originally used by women.

The most complicated language I ever studied.

Mr. maurice

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maurice richard libby
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Ronin at large

[This message has been edited by maurice richard libby (edited February 12, 2000).]
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RACastanet
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san vs chan

Post by RACastanet »

There is actually a fourth writing system called romanjin, which is what we foreigners read. The kanji represents the Chinese characters that the Japaneses borrowed from the Chinese, and there are about 2000 that the Japanese use out of over 10,000 Chinese charaters. Hiragana represents distinctly Japanese ideas.

Katakana is a phonetic alphabet using Japanese sounds. For instance, my name - Richard - comes out as Richardo as the do sound is the closest thing they have to a hard 'D' sound. There is no 'L' sound, so if your name is Bill, you become Beeru. and baseball is basubaru.

As for Hiragana being for the women, I have never heard that. However, they do speak a bit differently. The men usually do not pronounce the 'U' sound at the end of a word while the women do.

I wonder if Gary K. is lurking. He could shed light on this.

By the way, my last name has a direct translation into Japanese and Chinese so I do not need the katakana spelling. Castanet translates into 'chestnut' in mediteranean languages. In Japanese, there is a kanji character for chestnut. To the Japanese, my name is Kuri, in Chinese it is Li. On my belt I have one kanji charater on it for 'chestnut.

Regards, Richardo Castanedo
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Jake Steinmann
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san vs chan

Post by Jake Steinmann »

I, with my one semester of Japanese almost four years behind me, will now attempt to remember something pertenint here...

Seriously, from what I remember, everyone in the class addressed each other as -san. Except for Sensei, who we called (duh?) Sensei.

RE: The four alphabets. Actually, there are three. Romanji is just a cute term for the way we transliterate Japanese characters with english letters (i.e. Sensei). Hiragana is a phonetic alphabet, and is used principly for writing articles, verbs...um...other stuff (some one who knows more, help me...)

Katakana is also phonetic, and is used to write foreign words, except for Korean and Chinese words, which are not considered foreign.

Kanji is a symbolic set of characters. Each one represents a different concept. Tree, mountain, ect...

I never heard of hiragana being used for women, though that may be an older practice which was not taught to us.

Again, realize this is based on loose memory...

Jake




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Train Harder! More Chi!
maurice richard libby

san vs chan

Post by maurice richard libby »

Raffi,

Re: hiragana being women's writing system, that's in one of my old textbooks, which are in storage pending my upcoming move. When I get things unpacked, I'll try to post the reference.

yours,
maurice

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maurice richard libby
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gjkhoury
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Post by gjkhoury »

WOW!

You guys & girls blow me away! Lots of solid info here, even if some of you folks are Japanese language "white belts". Good!

I won't repeat any of the on-the-money points made here already, but will expand on one: The need for polite suffixes in a dojo.

As a white belt in a Japanese dojo, be happy if you are addressed at all. Mainly you will simply be ignored as the seniors decide if you're worth teaching over time. When talking to others, BE POLITE!!

As a, say, green belt (for example) maybe people will start calling you by your name, "Hey, Khoury! Sanchin!"

(There is a little confusion between Americans and Japanese on the name thing. As mentioned above, when you ask a Japanese their "name" chances are they will reply with their last: Matsumoto, for example. Using this rule, you (us Westerners) will often be called "Gary-san" for example, because as an American, when asked YOUR name, you will of course reply with your first.)

Anyway, as a brown belt, you will still be looked "down" upon by the seniors, but will now be called "senpai", or "senior" by those below you. Again, last name first, followed by "senpai". When referring to those below you, just their last name is enough.

As a black belt, you are "senpai" to just about everyone, and now the time has come to dis everyone else. No need to be "polite" or respectful to junior students who are known as, but not called, "kohai".

Being a black belt does not automatically make you a "sensei". You can be a black belt and still be referred to as "Khoury-senpai", for example, or simply "senpai".

At the highest levels, some instructors do not particularly seem to like being called "sensei" (too general a term, like "teacher"). They prefer to be called "Shihan", which is more akin to "Master". It seems to depend on the person.

I have never heard anyone referred to as "Nakahodo-renshi" for example, or "Uechi-hanshi". These terms seem (correct me if I'm wrong) to designate rank and not "position" in the dojo.

Hope this helps,

Gary
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RACastanet
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san vs chan

Post by RACastanet »

Gary sensei: while you are in the neighborhood, whatever became of the 'Japanese for dojos' tapes? I am creating a large group of people with some interesting vocabularies down here.
Regards, Rich
gjkhoury
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san vs chan

Post by gjkhoury »

Rich:

They're coming, pal.

Summer camp. Promise!

Gary
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