Intersting, Kristy, I often tell my students the same thing you tell your friends, that this is time they are giving to themselves. Such busy lives people live these days. I think if more people would stop the world for a few hours a week and take time to do whatever they want, there would be less heart attacks.
------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
It's not about equality
Moderator: Available
-
Tony-San
It's not about equality
Here is something...
I was demonstrating a takedown on a female. I then decided to demonstrate the takedown again but with alot of force, to really show how it works. I grabbed a stocky guy out of the ranks and kicked the legs out from under him.
Later on the female approached me and asked why I didn't give her the same treatment as him. I told her that it wasn't because she was female, but that she was smaller and I lacked confidence in the technique.
So in this case, although it appeared as a gender issue, it really wasn't, it was confidence issue that I had with myself.
Tony
I was demonstrating a takedown on a female. I then decided to demonstrate the takedown again but with alot of force, to really show how it works. I grabbed a stocky guy out of the ranks and kicked the legs out from under him.
Later on the female approached me and asked why I didn't give her the same treatment as him. I told her that it wasn't because she was female, but that she was smaller and I lacked confidence in the technique.
So in this case, although it appeared as a gender issue, it really wasn't, it was confidence issue that I had with myself.
Tony
It's not about equality
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tony-San:
Here is something...
I was demonstrating a takedown on a female. I then decided to demonstrate the takedown again but with alot of force, to really show how it works. I grabbed a stocky guy out of the ranks and kicked the legs out from under him.
Later on the female approached me and asked why I didn't give her the same treatment as him. I told her that it wasn't because she was female, but that she was smaller and I lacked confidence in the technique.
So in this case, although it appeared as a gender issue, it really wasn't, it was confidence issue that I had with myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aaaaaahhhhhhh... Tony-san.... (You can see this one coming can't you... I'm telegraphing "big-time"...
)
You refudiate your own example!
If you have a control problem, you need to take care of that before you subject your Kohai's to potential injuries... female or male.
If you have a control problem and you are willing to subject a male student rather than a female student... then it is a gender issue.
If your distinction is that you are/were willing to subject a "stocky" person (male, female, klingon, all of the above... doesn't matter ) rather than someone of smaller stature or slighter build, then you have a different issue that needs to be addressed... more "PC" perhaps, but no less insidious as far as preconcieved notions and stereotypes go.
I know it sounds like I'm picking on you, but I just want to make the observation in hopes that you see it as a "constructive criticism". Having said that...
If your purpose for picking the other person from the class out for being subjected to your control problem was that this other person was more experienced in the area of breakfalls and you knew this other person could handle the more forceful take-down... then that IMNSHO is very valid. However if that is the case, is it really a matter of your control problem or is it a matter that you need to tell your female uke that you think she needs to gain more experience/improvement in break-falls?
Just wondering out loud...
Here is something...
I was demonstrating a takedown on a female. I then decided to demonstrate the takedown again but with alot of force, to really show how it works. I grabbed a stocky guy out of the ranks and kicked the legs out from under him.
Later on the female approached me and asked why I didn't give her the same treatment as him. I told her that it wasn't because she was female, but that she was smaller and I lacked confidence in the technique.
So in this case, although it appeared as a gender issue, it really wasn't, it was confidence issue that I had with myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aaaaaahhhhhhh... Tony-san.... (You can see this one coming can't you... I'm telegraphing "big-time"...
)You refudiate your own example!
If you have a control problem, you need to take care of that before you subject your Kohai's to potential injuries... female or male.
If you have a control problem and you are willing to subject a male student rather than a female student... then it is a gender issue.
If your distinction is that you are/were willing to subject a "stocky" person (male, female, klingon, all of the above... doesn't matter
) rather than someone of smaller stature or slighter build, then you have a different issue that needs to be addressed... more "PC" perhaps, but no less insidious as far as preconcieved notions and stereotypes go.I know it sounds like I'm picking on you, but I just want to make the observation in hopes that you see it as a "constructive criticism". Having said that...
If your purpose for picking the other person from the class out for being subjected to your control problem was that this other person was more experienced in the area of breakfalls and you knew this other person could handle the more forceful take-down... then that IMNSHO is very valid. However if that is the case, is it really a matter of your control problem or is it a matter that you need to tell your female uke that you think she needs to gain more experience/improvement in break-falls?
Just wondering out loud...
-
Tony-San
It's not about equality
Panther:
You appear to be spending much time being condesending. So much so that you are missing a vital point here...that being that if I am being honest and pointing out that I am not comfortable enough with a technique to perform it on someone smaller, then it may be the same for someone else. This is a point for women to consider when they are faced with the same scenario. Is it really prejudice or is it a lack of confidence on the males part?
Tony
You appear to be spending much time being condesending. So much so that you are missing a vital point here...that being that if I am being honest and pointing out that I am not comfortable enough with a technique to perform it on someone smaller, then it may be the same for someone else. This is a point for women to consider when they are faced with the same scenario. Is it really prejudice or is it a lack of confidence on the males part?
Tony
It's not about equality
Allen-sensei,
Good point - bears typing out in a large font and pasting to the bathroom mirror as a mantra of sorts... U munnu è grandi, e a vita è curta! (The world is big and life is short)
About the takedown - as a female - I've got to admit that same thing has happened to me - and at the time I was quite angered by it. A senior senior senior was demonstrating to a group in my dojo - and while I was used as an uke for a couple of things - as soon as the technique got a bit more, shall we say "forceful" - I was "discarded" for a buff kind of guy
- now - years, some more experience later (although at the time I was a DAMN tough shodan) I can see the point of the S-S-S - as I can see Tony's - and perhaps being more comfortable "slamming" someone who is maybe more used to being slammed. Someone who is not used to working with a particular female may not know her limits - and - perhaps out of gender bias, perhaps out of courtesy - elects to demonstrate on someone that he knows can "take it" - so - in short - I'm not angry anymore - but it was a blow to my ego at the time as I had invested YEARS more time and training than the substituted uke - I just was shorter by about half a foot and 50 pounds or so... perhaps it was more impressive to use the technique on a bigger guy! 
Now - on another subject - Gilbert-san mentioned one of my favorite reads - Women Who Run with Wolves which has inspired more than one of my posts over the last couple years... I brought an old thread up to the top that came right out of those pages... take a look if you are so inclined, and I highly recommend the book.
Peace,
Lori
Good point - bears typing out in a large font and pasting to the bathroom mirror as a mantra of sorts... U munnu è grandi, e a vita è curta! (The world is big and life is short)
About the takedown - as a female - I've got to admit that same thing has happened to me - and at the time I was quite angered by it. A senior senior senior was demonstrating to a group in my dojo - and while I was used as an uke for a couple of things - as soon as the technique got a bit more, shall we say "forceful" - I was "discarded" for a buff kind of guy
- now - years, some more experience later (although at the time I was a DAMN tough shodan) I can see the point of the S-S-S - as I can see Tony's - and perhaps being more comfortable "slamming" someone who is maybe more used to being slammed. Someone who is not used to working with a particular female may not know her limits - and - perhaps out of gender bias, perhaps out of courtesy - elects to demonstrate on someone that he knows can "take it" - so - in short - I'm not angry anymore - but it was a blow to my ego at the time as I had invested YEARS more time and training than the substituted uke - I just was shorter by about half a foot and 50 pounds or so... perhaps it was more impressive to use the technique on a bigger guy! Now - on another subject - Gilbert-san mentioned one of my favorite reads - Women Who Run with Wolves which has inspired more than one of my posts over the last couple years... I brought an old thread up to the top that came right out of those pages... take a look if you are so inclined, and I highly recommend the book.
Peace,
Lori
It's not about equality
I don’t really see any malice here from anyone, just passion of beliefs manifest in the poignancy of argument.
But because of our passions, we all, sooner or later, run into a wall of misunderstandings.
If we could develop the concept of “argument” as the gift of ourselves, a sharing of ideals, of thoughts, and feelings with the group, taking care to avoid misconceptions in the exchange, we would be a true “brotherhood” on these forums.
The difficulty lies in keeping others open to receive the gift of us, in wanting to share.
But as we read responses to our posts, we subconsciously “latch on” to a word or two, perceived “barbs” that seem to reach into our preservation instincts triggering a defensive emotional stance.
Try as we will, this cannot be glossed over as the budding arguments have always a way to awaken all the natural emotional forces of self-preservation and retaliation, much like our primal instincts in response to life-threatening assaults.
Thus the difficulty to reign in our emotional backlash.
The problem compounds itself when the other closes off to us in preparation to “defend” against us anticipating the counter argument.
A successful argument is one that reaches the other in a mutual exchange of emotional gifts, but when we sense the other closing off to us, we should realize our argument has already failed before it began.
If any of our arguments on these pages are perceived as some conscious or unconscious threat, our emotional doors will remain locked and the message will never be heard.
And in spite of our best efforts to the contrary, this is the way it will be for all of us, myself included, and we can all join together with the coyotes in howling at the moon.
And, please, this is not to single anyone out, or to criticize anyone’s posts; just some observations in an attempt to make us more receptive to each other before having to launch
The “dogs of words”!
------------------
Van Canna
But because of our passions, we all, sooner or later, run into a wall of misunderstandings.
If we could develop the concept of “argument” as the gift of ourselves, a sharing of ideals, of thoughts, and feelings with the group, taking care to avoid misconceptions in the exchange, we would be a true “brotherhood” on these forums.
The difficulty lies in keeping others open to receive the gift of us, in wanting to share.
But as we read responses to our posts, we subconsciously “latch on” to a word or two, perceived “barbs” that seem to reach into our preservation instincts triggering a defensive emotional stance.
Try as we will, this cannot be glossed over as the budding arguments have always a way to awaken all the natural emotional forces of self-preservation and retaliation, much like our primal instincts in response to life-threatening assaults.
Thus the difficulty to reign in our emotional backlash.
The problem compounds itself when the other closes off to us in preparation to “defend” against us anticipating the counter argument.
A successful argument is one that reaches the other in a mutual exchange of emotional gifts, but when we sense the other closing off to us, we should realize our argument has already failed before it began.
If any of our arguments on these pages are perceived as some conscious or unconscious threat, our emotional doors will remain locked and the message will never be heard.
And in spite of our best efforts to the contrary, this is the way it will be for all of us, myself included, and we can all join together with the coyotes in howling at the moon.
And, please, this is not to single anyone out, or to criticize anyone’s posts; just some observations in an attempt to make us more receptive to each other before having to launch
The “dogs of words”!
------------------
Van Canna
It's not about equality
Lori,
I feel your message is full of insight.
The thing I have run into with a male-dominated dojang (dojo in Korean) is that young male practitioners who teach usually have striking physical skills. There is no way that a woman, especially an older woman such as myself, can jump six feet into the air, doing a jump kick. Does this mean that I should be held back in rank? What if I cannot break five boards at a station?
My first instructor told me that they had different boardbreaking requirements for women at first, but that some women protested, and they changed that. I think those women did us a great disservice, because they have rendered advanced teaching of martial arts unavailable to many women who could otherwise profit from it.
In discussing the issue of valid criteria for promotion with a number of people, I have discovered that there is a distinct difference in outlook. The young, highly accomplished male martial artist tends to emphasize the physical skills almost to the exclusion of the philosophy and wisdom of the art. Most women and most older men achieve much more of a balance. It is interesting to note that in taekwondo (my primary martial art), the Korean flag is prominently displayed, and the yin-yang symbol in the middle of that flag, and the concepts it represents, permeate taekwondo philosophy. Thus, a true interpretation of taekwondo requires a balance between the physical skills and the philosophical understandings. When a person is trained to make her body a deadly weapon, only self-control and self-discipline keep her from becoming a menace to society. Thus, the philosophical understandings must become a way of life. In any dojang where the philosophical understandings are not fully acknowledged and taught, a student is being shortchanged. Balance requires that judges who promote people to higher rank must look for an increase in wisdom as the physical powers wane, and that it is valid and necesssary to develop and apply criteria for promotion that place more emphasis on technical skill for the able bodied, but more emphasis on the wisdom for the older and less able bodied. The martial arts community requires membership of both kinds of martial artists, and we will preserve the wisdom of the martial arts only if it is recognized, fostered, and rewarded appropriately with rank.
Pat Goltz
second degree recommended black belt
age 55
I feel your message is full of insight.
The thing I have run into with a male-dominated dojang (dojo in Korean) is that young male practitioners who teach usually have striking physical skills. There is no way that a woman, especially an older woman such as myself, can jump six feet into the air, doing a jump kick. Does this mean that I should be held back in rank? What if I cannot break five boards at a station?
My first instructor told me that they had different boardbreaking requirements for women at first, but that some women protested, and they changed that. I think those women did us a great disservice, because they have rendered advanced teaching of martial arts unavailable to many women who could otherwise profit from it.
In discussing the issue of valid criteria for promotion with a number of people, I have discovered that there is a distinct difference in outlook. The young, highly accomplished male martial artist tends to emphasize the physical skills almost to the exclusion of the philosophy and wisdom of the art. Most women and most older men achieve much more of a balance. It is interesting to note that in taekwondo (my primary martial art), the Korean flag is prominently displayed, and the yin-yang symbol in the middle of that flag, and the concepts it represents, permeate taekwondo philosophy. Thus, a true interpretation of taekwondo requires a balance between the physical skills and the philosophical understandings. When a person is trained to make her body a deadly weapon, only self-control and self-discipline keep her from becoming a menace to society. Thus, the philosophical understandings must become a way of life. In any dojang where the philosophical understandings are not fully acknowledged and taught, a student is being shortchanged. Balance requires that judges who promote people to higher rank must look for an increase in wisdom as the physical powers wane, and that it is valid and necesssary to develop and apply criteria for promotion that place more emphasis on technical skill for the able bodied, but more emphasis on the wisdom for the older and less able bodied. The martial arts community requires membership of both kinds of martial artists, and we will preserve the wisdom of the martial arts only if it is recognized, fostered, and rewarded appropriately with rank.
Pat Goltz
second degree recommended black belt
age 55
It's not about equality
Lori,
The last couple of years I have worked pretty hard to introduce some techniques to our agencies DT curriculum. I saw a need for clean physics (instructors could teach what the hands did but often neglected the feet and hips) in order to make the technique work for smaller deputies, and some simple, powerful techniques. Especially finger locks.
I always demonstrated the finger locks on men. Not because the women couldn't take the technique, but because the students had to see and believe that the technique would work.
If we'd had a 6'7" 340 pound female officer (and former pro football player), I would have been happy to use her for uke. After demonstration and practice, I would often have the smallest woman in class take the behemoth down. It was all done for a specific effect. It never occured to me that the feelings might be hurt by not having to kiss concrete.
Thanks for making me think.
Rory
The last couple of years I have worked pretty hard to introduce some techniques to our agencies DT curriculum. I saw a need for clean physics (instructors could teach what the hands did but often neglected the feet and hips) in order to make the technique work for smaller deputies, and some simple, powerful techniques. Especially finger locks.
I always demonstrated the finger locks on men. Not because the women couldn't take the technique, but because the students had to see and believe that the technique would work.
If we'd had a 6'7" 340 pound female officer (and former pro football player), I would have been happy to use her for uke. After demonstration and practice, I would often have the smallest woman in class take the behemoth down. It was all done for a specific effect. It never occured to me that the feelings might be hurt by not having to kiss concrete.
Thanks for making me think.
Rory
It's not about equality
I would just like to note that I have not been offended by anyones comments. And I hope I did not offend anyone as well.
About the instructor or seniors picking someone that is not a woman, just tell the instructor, hey, please feel free to abuse me that you can take it and you will learn better first hand.
And another thing to understand is that if the instructor is teaching a seminar or whatever, he may just not pick a woman, not to offend her that she can't handle it, but to make an impression on his audience. With kyusho for instance, it is much more impressive to drop 6'2" over 200 lb guys than it is to drop a 5'6" 130 lb woman. See what I mean?
Kristy
About the instructor or seniors picking someone that is not a woman, just tell the instructor, hey, please feel free to abuse me
that you can take it and you will learn better first hand.And another thing to understand is that if the instructor is teaching a seminar or whatever, he may just not pick a woman, not to offend her that she can't handle it, but to make an impression on his audience. With kyusho for instance, it is much more impressive to drop 6'2" over 200 lb guys than it is to drop a 5'6" 130 lb woman. See what I mean?
Kristy
-
Tony-San
It's not about equality
I've always felt that these forums are like a big banquet table where everyone puts something on the table.
Sure! Somethings taste better then others depending on who you are and what your tastes are. The thing is, a contribution is made.
Now, if I bring a tray of Cannolis to this banquet and Billy Bob's wife brings a Home Made Banana Pudding, would it be cool to puke banana pudding all over the floor just to bring attention to my cannolis? Why would I do this? What would the phsycology be behind such an action?
If people would just simply "contribute" to the forums rather than using them to rise above everyone else by standing in contrast to everything that is posted there would be less arguments.
I've been told that my posts tend to stick out on this forum. If that is true I know that it's not because i've posed a good argument, it's because I've made a unique contribution. If someone makes a unique contribuiton, then there is no need to get into a play of words or struggle for a difference and there would be no need for argument. It's just something to read and ponder for a moment if you desire. If it's not for you, then by all means, grab a spoon and scoop up that Banana Pudding (by the way, I have my own Banana Trees and can make a really good Banana Pudding)!
Tony
Sure! Somethings taste better then others depending on who you are and what your tastes are. The thing is, a contribution is made.
Now, if I bring a tray of Cannolis to this banquet and Billy Bob's wife brings a Home Made Banana Pudding, would it be cool to puke banana pudding all over the floor just to bring attention to my cannolis? Why would I do this? What would the phsycology be behind such an action?
If people would just simply "contribute" to the forums rather than using them to rise above everyone else by standing in contrast to everything that is posted there would be less arguments.
I've been told that my posts tend to stick out on this forum. If that is true I know that it's not because i've posed a good argument, it's because I've made a unique contribution. If someone makes a unique contribuiton, then there is no need to get into a play of words or struggle for a difference and there would be no need for argument. It's just something to read and ponder for a moment if you desire. If it's not for you, then by all means, grab a spoon and scoop up that Banana Pudding (by the way, I have my own Banana Trees and can make a really good Banana Pudding)!
Tony
It's not about equality
"And another thing to understand is that if the instructor is teaching a seminar or whatever, he may just not pick a woman, not to offend her that
she can't handle it, but to make an impression on his audience. With kyusho for instance, it is much more impressive to drop 6'2" over 200 lb guys
than it is to drop a 5'6" 130 lb woman. See what I mean? "
Let's examine the idea behind that just for a moment. Implicit in that idea, and I think you are right on, is that a man has to show others how powerful he is! It is widely believed he cannot do this when up against a small woman. The fact that it must be impressive in and of itself is an idea of machismo.
Personally, I am not offended if I am not chosen for a demonstration, because I do not look for ulterior motives. But the last time the president of our association came and did a seminar, I did notice he only chose big, burly guys for his demos.
This discussion has been most interesting because of the insight into people's thinking in choosing whom to use as uke.
Pat
she can't handle it, but to make an impression on his audience. With kyusho for instance, it is much more impressive to drop 6'2" over 200 lb guys
than it is to drop a 5'6" 130 lb woman. See what I mean? "
Let's examine the idea behind that just for a moment. Implicit in that idea, and I think you are right on, is that a man has to show others how powerful he is! It is widely believed he cannot do this when up against a small woman. The fact that it must be impressive in and of itself is an idea of machismo.
Personally, I am not offended if I am not chosen for a demonstration, because I do not look for ulterior motives. But the last time the president of our association came and did a seminar, I did notice he only chose big, burly guys for his demos.
This discussion has been most interesting because of the insight into people's thinking in choosing whom to use as uke.
Pat
-
Tony-San
It's not about equality
I'm a small guy but always seem to get picked for an Uke.
what's up with that?
what's up with that?
It's not about equality
Tony-san, Doctor X, everyone...
It wasn't my intention to be condescending. Nor was it my intention to "take advantage of" someone's honesty.
I will say that I spent some time discussing the perceptions of men's actions with sisters, wife, and a female MA friend before I responded. I also (obviously unsuccessfully) attempted to put the responses to the original statement in more than one light for clarity and observation.
The point has been made that taking down a larger uke gives more impact to the demonstrated technique. In a seminar situation, I completely agree...
I also maintain that if the reason a technique isn't demonstrated on a female uke is because the instructor lacks control or is unsure of him/herself, then that instructor shouldn't subject any student to the potential injury that can result from a lack of control.
I apologize for any perceived slight that I may have given and will graciously yield the forum... Certainly didn't mean to step on anyone's.... ummmmmm, toes...
It wasn't my intention to be condescending. Nor was it my intention to "take advantage of" someone's honesty.
I will say that I spent some time discussing the perceptions of men's actions with sisters, wife, and a female MA friend before I responded. I also (obviously unsuccessfully) attempted to put the responses to the original statement in more than one light for clarity and observation.
The point has been made that taking down a larger uke gives more impact to the demonstrated technique. In a seminar situation, I completely agree...
I also maintain that if the reason a technique isn't demonstrated on a female uke is because the instructor lacks control or is unsure of him/herself, then that instructor shouldn't subject any student to the potential injury that can result from a lack of control.
I apologize for any perceived slight that I may have given and will graciously yield the forum... Certainly didn't mean to step on anyone's.... ummmmmm, toes...
-
Tony-San
It's not about equality
Panther:
What about an instructor with a false sense of confidence?
There are alot of instructors out there who think they are all that and a bag of chips (some of which have 20+ years of martial arts experience)..and the truth is, they ain't schit! these are the knuckleheads who are gonna hurt somebody, not nessecarily someone like me who is honest with himself and knows his limitations.
Tony
[This message has been edited by Tony-San (edited June 19, 2000).]
What about an instructor with a false sense of confidence?
There are alot of instructors out there who think they are all that and a bag of chips (some of which have 20+ years of martial arts experience)..and the truth is, they ain't schit! these are the knuckleheads who are gonna hurt somebody, not nessecarily someone like me who is honest with himself and knows his limitations.
Tony
[This message has been edited by Tony-San (edited June 19, 2000).]
It's not about equality
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tony-San:
What about an instructor with a false sense of confidence?
There are alot of instructors out there who think they are all that and a bag of chips (some of which have 20+ years of martial arts experience)..and the truth is, they ain't schit! these are the knuckleheads who are gonna hurt somebody, not nessecarily someone like me who is honest with himself and knows his limitations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You know what, pal... you're right. I ain't "schit"... Whatever time I've spent in training, whatever experience(s) I've had, whatever co-training I've done with sisters/wife/women, whatever perspective obtained from long discussions with those women, whatever I have to say/contribute/discuss are just limitations of a knucklehead with a false sense of confidence who's gonna get somebody hurt.
I defer to your obvious greater ability, knowledge, experience... and above all... honesty.
I tried to be calming... I tried to be gracious by explaining I had no intention of being condescending... I tried to apologize for anything that offended...
IMHO, this isn't what these forums are about or need. This thread is about real concerns from real women who certainly don't need petty bickering interfering with their discussions and dialog.
I only tried to observe, comment and contribute. I will gladly get my "all that and a bag of chips" contributions out of the way of your greater wisdom.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 19, 2000).]
What about an instructor with a false sense of confidence?
There are alot of instructors out there who think they are all that and a bag of chips (some of which have 20+ years of martial arts experience)..and the truth is, they ain't schit! these are the knuckleheads who are gonna hurt somebody, not nessecarily someone like me who is honest with himself and knows his limitations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You know what, pal... you're right. I ain't "schit"... Whatever time I've spent in training, whatever experience(s) I've had, whatever co-training I've done with sisters/wife/women, whatever perspective obtained from long discussions with those women, whatever I have to say/contribute/discuss are just limitations of a knucklehead with a false sense of confidence who's gonna get somebody hurt.
I defer to your obvious greater ability, knowledge, experience... and above all... honesty.
I tried to be calming... I tried to be gracious by explaining I had no intention of being condescending... I tried to apologize for anything that offended...
IMHO, this isn't what these forums are about or need. This thread is about real concerns from real women who certainly don't need petty bickering interfering with their discussions and dialog.
I only tried to observe, comment and contribute. I will gladly get my "all that and a bag of chips" contributions out of the way of your greater wisdom.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 19, 2000).]
