During my study of martial arts - the differences between men and women - in the way we train and are trained, our motivations for beginning martial study, our perceptions, our abilities - have become very apparent to me. Yes, we all strive to leave that which would interfere with our training outside the door of the dojo - but as has been pointed out numerous times, and was one of the reasons for this forum coming into being, is that we cannot ignore these differences - at times we can even use them to our advantage. Certainly, there are negative aspects that come up as a result of these gender differences, some of those have been brought up as well, like occasions where women are hit too hard, or not hard enough, or on the other side, women with something to "prove" that may come out negatively in the dojo.
Instructors can pontificate all they want about how proud they are of their efforts to treat their male and female students "exactly the same" - but that is, well, to put it politely, crap. The differences exist - they cannot be ignored and, if we are to truly be practioners of an art that does not discriminate for any reason, the challenges resulting from these differences must be acknowledged and dealt with.
I realize this is no easy task in a martial art that is, quite frankly, male dominated. There are unquestionably more male practitioners, male teachers, and males in the higher ranks. I do not bemoan this fact, nor do I protest the "unfairness" of it, although there have been some stories lending credence to discrimination. That's a lot like life as far as I'm concerned. As mom told most of us, life isn't fair. Fighting isn't fair. Being stalked by predators isn't fair. Violence, starvation, abuse - all of that isn't fair. But as martial artists we seek a "way" - this way is different for all: some for fighting, some for defense, some for health and balance. Regardless of the motivation, or even perceived motivation, there is a code that exists within the traditional practice of martial arts that seeks to transcend the baser of our human instincts by developing those more primitive responses into well-trained acts of concious responsiblity within a framework of courtesy and respect. Let us all accept a dose of "reality" in the uniqueness of all martial artists, and realize that men and women can certainly all learn to fight, we can train and learn from each other, but it is not and never will be the "same."
Vive la difference!
Peace,
Lori
It's not about equality
Moderator: Available
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Allen M.
It's not about equality
A good coach learns and knows the limits of his students, and pushes them to their limits and a little beyond to keep the challenge going with due disrespect for the sex of the individual. A good student knows how to work with other students respecting the stature and abilities of the partner.
Women are "picked on" because of their sex, sometimes. I wonder if that, alone, drives women out of the dojo?
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Women are "picked on" because of their sex, sometimes. I wonder if that, alone, drives women out of the dojo?
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
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Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
It's not about equality
"Women are "picked on" because of their sex, sometimes. I wonder if that, alone, drives women out of the dojo?"
I'm sure it does. Lord knows, it would drive me out.
Something that a lot of instructors forget (IMO) is that men and women often have very different concerns/motivations for studying the martial arts. A good instructor needs to be able to address the concerns of both well.
Which is worth more: Four quarters, or one dollar bill?
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
I'm sure it does. Lord knows, it would drive me out.
Something that a lot of instructors forget (IMO) is that men and women often have very different concerns/motivations for studying the martial arts. A good instructor needs to be able to address the concerns of both well.
Which is worth more: Four quarters, or one dollar bill?
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
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Jackie Olsen
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
- Contact:
It's not about equality
Good Post, Lori,
...thank you for airing out the differences. I've been extremely fortunate to train with two great senseis and wonderful students. The exceptions could never stay that long, as if sensing that he was not in harmony with the tone the Sensei and students set for practice. And, the one bb student that currently shows lack of respect in training with both females AND males will be asked to change or leave.
Allen says it well about good coaches and students. It would be interesting to see what drives people out of the dojo, period. Right now we have 2 female white belts and 3 female black belts (1 Shodan, 2 Sandan) training along side, 3 male white belts, 3 male green belts, 2 male brown belts and 5 male black belts. Is this a higher percentage of women training in ratio to men than what smaller dojos normally experience?
When I started I was one of 3 women with 12 guys. The other two women dropped out and for several years I was the only woman training. I don't remember feeling picked on by the guys. But, as I said earlier, the Sensei sets the tone for his/her students. And, we are not a "commercial" dojo, being affiliated with the Y. Does this change who is attracted to training? I think so.
Yes, Jake, students have different motivations for studying and a good Sensei (who is well-rounded in all aspects) will see that in his senior students and utilize their abilities in teaching others. Two of our black belts are excellent in working with those who like to cross train and spar. Others are impeccable when it comes to teaching kata, applications and bunkai. Some can communicate better to beginners, while others work well with advanced students. And some know the ins/outs of history, lineage, terminology.
I remember over years two white belts (1 male/1 female) returning and actually saying why they left ... they both had the same answer: The training was too intense, took too much discipline & time which they felt they couldn't give.
If I were to say I felt "picked on" it was when I visited another dojo for training as a brown belt(commerical) and perhaps during summer camp many years ago. Several guys at both places enjoyed proving how very strong and knowledgeable they were compared to my meager abilities.
At that dojo, I had been hurt during partner combinations by one black belt in particular several times during training (I was going weekly, readying myself for shodan).
Finally, I could take it no more and punched him back really hard during an aikido exercise. He said to me, "Hey, you can't hit me like that, I'm a black belt!." Needless to say I let have it with my verbal sword and told him if he ever hurt me like that, his ribs wouldn't be the only thing that would hurt." He never abused me again, and to this day speaks highly of ME, even though I have no respect for him.
So, I have come full circle with this ... as Lori says, it boils down to courtesy and respect for another human being, regardless of gender.
Jackie
[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited June 11, 2000).]
...thank you for airing out the differences. I've been extremely fortunate to train with two great senseis and wonderful students. The exceptions could never stay that long, as if sensing that he was not in harmony with the tone the Sensei and students set for practice. And, the one bb student that currently shows lack of respect in training with both females AND males will be asked to change or leave.
Allen says it well about good coaches and students. It would be interesting to see what drives people out of the dojo, period. Right now we have 2 female white belts and 3 female black belts (1 Shodan, 2 Sandan) training along side, 3 male white belts, 3 male green belts, 2 male brown belts and 5 male black belts. Is this a higher percentage of women training in ratio to men than what smaller dojos normally experience?
When I started I was one of 3 women with 12 guys. The other two women dropped out and for several years I was the only woman training. I don't remember feeling picked on by the guys. But, as I said earlier, the Sensei sets the tone for his/her students. And, we are not a "commercial" dojo, being affiliated with the Y. Does this change who is attracted to training? I think so.
Yes, Jake, students have different motivations for studying and a good Sensei (who is well-rounded in all aspects) will see that in his senior students and utilize their abilities in teaching others. Two of our black belts are excellent in working with those who like to cross train and spar. Others are impeccable when it comes to teaching kata, applications and bunkai. Some can communicate better to beginners, while others work well with advanced students. And some know the ins/outs of history, lineage, terminology.
I remember over years two white belts (1 male/1 female) returning and actually saying why they left ... they both had the same answer: The training was too intense, took too much discipline & time which they felt they couldn't give.
If I were to say I felt "picked on" it was when I visited another dojo for training as a brown belt(commerical) and perhaps during summer camp many years ago. Several guys at both places enjoyed proving how very strong and knowledgeable they were compared to my meager abilities.
At that dojo, I had been hurt during partner combinations by one black belt in particular several times during training (I was going weekly, readying myself for shodan).
Finally, I could take it no more and punched him back really hard during an aikido exercise. He said to me, "Hey, you can't hit me like that, I'm a black belt!." Needless to say I let have it with my verbal sword and told him if he ever hurt me like that, his ribs wouldn't be the only thing that would hurt." He never abused me again, and to this day speaks highly of ME, even though I have no respect for him.
So, I have come full circle with this ... as Lori says, it boils down to courtesy and respect for another human being, regardless of gender.
Jackie
[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited June 11, 2000).]
It's not about equality
Many times I have been the only female in class. I am a nidan fixing to test for 3rd degree and I've been in martial arts for 16 years.
I also think a challenge that women face that men do not is that when women eventually have children and also work and do the majority of the housework, there seems to be little to no time left to train regular basis. With small children they have no sitter.
I think this is another factor that women have to deal with that men do not.
Kristy
I also think a challenge that women face that men do not is that when women eventually have children and also work and do the majority of the housework, there seems to be little to no time left to train regular basis. With small children they have no sitter.
I think this is another factor that women have to deal with that men do not.
Kristy
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Allen M.
It's not about equality
Great, Kristy,
You must be one tough woman to have endured all those years. Sometimes man has to take care of small children too. Where there is a will there is a way. I know of one young woman who brought her baby with her to a summer camp once, and kept the playpen nearby.
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Jackie,
I remember when a young woman came crying [with real tears] to me, telling me how she was being mis-treated in class by the ego-charged opposite sex. My reaction was to punch her husband out for being such a wous. He attended the same classes (family nite), and his only blindness had to be the blindness of fear to deal with the situation.
I'll bet the world is full of stories of defeat and success of women in the martial arts; only the strongest survive in Uechi-ryu.
<hr>
"Defeat is worse than death?" Death is the ultimate defeat, accept it and embrace it when your time has come, Jake.
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
You must be one tough woman to have endured all those years. Sometimes man has to take care of small children too. Where there is a will there is a way. I know of one young woman who brought her baby with her to a summer camp once, and kept the playpen nearby.
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Jackie,
I remember when a young woman came crying [with real tears] to me, telling me how she was being mis-treated in class by the ego-charged opposite sex. My reaction was to punch her husband out for being such a wous. He attended the same classes (family nite), and his only blindness had to be the blindness of fear to deal with the situation.
I'll bet the world is full of stories of defeat and success of women in the martial arts; only the strongest survive in Uechi-ryu.
<hr>
"Defeat is worse than death?" Death is the ultimate defeat, accept it and embrace it when your time has come, Jake.
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
It's not about equality
<blockquote>Women are "picked on" because of their sex, sometimes. I wonder if that, alone, drives women out of the dojo?</blockquote>-Allen
Ha - this happens everywhere - as most of us know - or should anyway. Lest I start to sound sexist it's really about a given anywhere - regardless of sport, business or region. As far as the dojo goes, I'm certain there are many stories to the positive and the negative... if more women participated here I'm sure we would hear some. Privately I've heard a few - women being pushed extra hard - which in one way can be good - but there is a line that is crossed occasionally from an ego standpoint where a woman may be unconciously perceived as stepping into an arena where she doesn't belong. A sense of humor helps; in my dojo I've been fortunate to have a sensei who is very supportive of me - irrespective of my gender. This is not to say I've not come across some interesting facets of male/female interaction during training with others. I do not consider myself a "wimp" - having continued training through various illnesses, a broken ankle, dislocated ribs, a pregnancy and most recently a pretty severe back injury (not karate related). Before the back injury my minimum number of classes a week were four - never missing a week - even training during vacations. I've been hit hard, and hit hard back. I state that not to sound like some "toughie" but because even with that - I have had an occasion or two where I know that there was "something" else besides hard training entering the picture. My protest against what I considered an excessively hard bankai defense elicited the response that "a dan rank should be able to take it" - without getting into details - "it" was well beyond what was necessary or safe for a bankai. Other times I've received a sanchin check or two that went well beyond what was necessary - and I was able to take it - but it was not without some serious bruising that lasted well beyond the usual next day workout soreness. So - did I quit? No - and this isn't to say that there isn't some unfairness out there with males as well - I only point out that there are definitely issues that arise when men and women train together in a fighting art - and many of them are not so apparent as needing different protection devices during hard core sparring!
Nice point about a good instructor Jake! I have come to believe that a woman's motivations for entering martial arts can be very different from that of men. Disregarding these motivations in the interest of gender equality can actually be an injustice ...
Jackie - it would be really interesting to do a survey of sorts to find out what makes women drop out of training. I read somewhere that sparring is a number one reason - and I place fault with that on the instructor not realizing the different motivations/sensitivities women may bring to the dojo with them. I am not suggesting that special concessions be made - not at all - in my own experience teaching women I've noticed that a different approach can often turn the most hesitant female karateka into a serious sparring opponent. Oftimes "traditional" methods can set a woman off - and instead of helping her to conquer fears - they add to them and drive her away. This might be a "good thing" according to some hardcore practitioners - yet I believe that the martial arts have many different gifts that can be taken in many different ways. Not everyone who enters the dojo need to win a hundred tournaments in order to be considered an able practitioner.
Too bad more women aren't active on these forums - it would be interesting to take a poll as to reasons they have heard for other women dropping out of training.
And then there are those instructors like just got arrested in Florida recently - for lewd and lacivious acts in front of his female students...
Kristy, another good point about children - and certainly a challenge to training for both parents. More nurturing mothers than I am would perhaps be mortified that when my daughter was younger she often slept in the back of the dojo curled up on a mat a few times a week while I was working out. Then a couple weeks after my son was born I was back to teaching kids classes with him in a baby sling on my back...
So far they don't seem to have suffered for it - but I've certainly become very sensitive to the challenges of my female students who have young children. If I had a big enough dojo there is no question but that I would provide a room and staff for childcare like the health clubs do. I notice that many of the TKD places are starting to do this. Lacking the funds for that however we keep things as flexible as possible.
Allen Sensei - that playpen at summer camp sure was a sight wasn't it? Especially when the little rascal learned how to climb out of it and kept running into the kata formation ...
I guess they've seen it all at camp eh?
And as for the strong surviving: I would have to agree that Uechi-ryu may be one of the "tougher" arts for a woman to stick with.
Lori
Ha - this happens everywhere - as most of us know - or should anyway. Lest I start to sound sexist it's really about a given anywhere - regardless of sport, business or region. As far as the dojo goes, I'm certain there are many stories to the positive and the negative... if more women participated here I'm sure we would hear some. Privately I've heard a few - women being pushed extra hard - which in one way can be good - but there is a line that is crossed occasionally from an ego standpoint where a woman may be unconciously perceived as stepping into an arena where she doesn't belong. A sense of humor helps; in my dojo I've been fortunate to have a sensei who is very supportive of me - irrespective of my gender. This is not to say I've not come across some interesting facets of male/female interaction during training with others. I do not consider myself a "wimp" - having continued training through various illnesses, a broken ankle, dislocated ribs, a pregnancy and most recently a pretty severe back injury (not karate related). Before the back injury my minimum number of classes a week were four - never missing a week - even training during vacations. I've been hit hard, and hit hard back. I state that not to sound like some "toughie" but because even with that - I have had an occasion or two where I know that there was "something" else besides hard training entering the picture. My protest against what I considered an excessively hard bankai defense elicited the response that "a dan rank should be able to take it" - without getting into details - "it" was well beyond what was necessary or safe for a bankai. Other times I've received a sanchin check or two that went well beyond what was necessary - and I was able to take it - but it was not without some serious bruising that lasted well beyond the usual next day workout soreness. So - did I quit? No - and this isn't to say that there isn't some unfairness out there with males as well - I only point out that there are definitely issues that arise when men and women train together in a fighting art - and many of them are not so apparent as needing different protection devices during hard core sparring!
Nice point about a good instructor Jake! I have come to believe that a woman's motivations for entering martial arts can be very different from that of men. Disregarding these motivations in the interest of gender equality can actually be an injustice ...
Jackie - it would be really interesting to do a survey of sorts to find out what makes women drop out of training. I read somewhere that sparring is a number one reason - and I place fault with that on the instructor not realizing the different motivations/sensitivities women may bring to the dojo with them. I am not suggesting that special concessions be made - not at all - in my own experience teaching women I've noticed that a different approach can often turn the most hesitant female karateka into a serious sparring opponent. Oftimes "traditional" methods can set a woman off - and instead of helping her to conquer fears - they add to them and drive her away. This might be a "good thing" according to some hardcore practitioners - yet I believe that the martial arts have many different gifts that can be taken in many different ways. Not everyone who enters the dojo need to win a hundred tournaments in order to be considered an able practitioner.
Too bad more women aren't active on these forums - it would be interesting to take a poll as to reasons they have heard for other women dropping out of training.
And then there are those instructors like just got arrested in Florida recently - for lewd and lacivious acts in front of his female students...
Kristy, another good point about children - and certainly a challenge to training for both parents. More nurturing mothers than I am would perhaps be mortified that when my daughter was younger she often slept in the back of the dojo curled up on a mat a few times a week while I was working out. Then a couple weeks after my son was born I was back to teaching kids classes with him in a baby sling on my back...
So far they don't seem to have suffered for it - but I've certainly become very sensitive to the challenges of my female students who have young children. If I had a big enough dojo there is no question but that I would provide a room and staff for childcare like the health clubs do. I notice that many of the TKD places are starting to do this. Lacking the funds for that however we keep things as flexible as possible.
Allen Sensei - that playpen at summer camp sure was a sight wasn't it? Especially when the little rascal learned how to climb out of it and kept running into the kata formation ...
I guess they've seen it all at camp eh?
And as for the strong surviving: I would have to agree that Uechi-ryu may be one of the "tougher" arts for a woman to stick with.
Lori
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Allen M.
It's not about equality
I caught your little rascal climber at the summer camp more than once, heh, heh! I think many karateka, man or woman, boy or girl, have gone through phases of training in which they were "beaten" through aspect of their training, such as sparring, bunkai, etc. I refer to it as "hazing".
I suspect women have a tough time dealing with that because of their stature. However, martial arts, being what it is, attracts those with domineering personalities and an overabundance of ego. This is a problem faced by both sexes.
Then you get to the layer which is the bare-bones battle of the sexes.
So, as I see it, those of slighter stature and women have a more difficult time surviving in the dojo. You continue to survive until you come into your own then start dishing it back. Only then do things become easier for women and the little guys, and the tough make it. That's an oversimplified short explanation of how I see it.
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
I suspect women have a tough time dealing with that because of their stature. However, martial arts, being what it is, attracts those with domineering personalities and an overabundance of ego. This is a problem faced by both sexes.
Then you get to the layer which is the bare-bones battle of the sexes.
So, as I see it, those of slighter stature and women have a more difficult time surviving in the dojo. You continue to survive until you come into your own then start dishing it back. Only then do things become easier for women and the little guys, and the tough make it. That's an oversimplified short explanation of how I see it.
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
It's not about equality
Hi Kate - thanks for posting and adding your "two cents!"
I believe Allen-sensei has a great point about "toughness" being a prerequisite to sticking with this kind of study. There are many "tough" styles out there - and some not so tough - but Uechi-ryu, as practiced in many dojos, with the elements of conditioning and close "in-fighting" has probably put off a few women - unless they have something driving them on - something you seem to have by the way!
You are already demonstrating a "spirit" in your practice that is evident in your kata and your determination the way that you practice - it will serve you well as you develop that. Karate provides many things to different people - and - for women - stretching the boundaries of what has been ingrained in us socially because of our gender gives us a different perspective. I've brought women friends to the dojo who wanted to see what it was that held my attention so seriously - and after seeing things like kotekitae and pushups outside on the pavement - they look at me like I'm crazy for doing this or else like I'm some kind of superwoman for "putting up" with that kind of what they call "hard core" training. You've probably heard me say that I also felt at one time like pushups on asphalt were an impossiblity - but the point is - I kept going - and eventually it became just an aspect of training - not some insurmountable hill in front of me. Sure - guys have more upper body strength - pushups and hitting and other things may come more natural to some guys because of their gender and build etc. - but - women who hang in there and can surpass that initial "my God I could never do THAT" phase will find benefits to karate study that become intensely personal - and that may be more difficult for a male to understand.
Again, I'm not saying that men don't go through similar hesitations about karate study - sparring for example - many honest guys of the "90's" or whatever term you want to use will admit to all kinds of feeings and fears and such at various stages of training, testing or competition. What I AM saying though - is that this journey is different for women. Thankfully we've got many guys on these forums and within many martial arts styles who will at least acknowledge that and seek to understand it. That's a hell of a lot better than some of the other attitudes that are out there - and strangely enough - this training can help us deal with those chauvanistic types better when we do encounter them.
Kate - you are a very welcome addition to the dojo - and don't worry - you'll get plenty of chance to get into more and more contact as move up the ranks - with the spirit you have demonstrated so far - you will no doubt give some of your seniors a run for their money! (me included!)
Peace,
Lori
I believe Allen-sensei has a great point about "toughness" being a prerequisite to sticking with this kind of study. There are many "tough" styles out there - and some not so tough - but Uechi-ryu, as practiced in many dojos, with the elements of conditioning and close "in-fighting" has probably put off a few women - unless they have something driving them on - something you seem to have by the way!
You are already demonstrating a "spirit" in your practice that is evident in your kata and your determination the way that you practice - it will serve you well as you develop that. Karate provides many things to different people - and - for women - stretching the boundaries of what has been ingrained in us socially because of our gender gives us a different perspective. I've brought women friends to the dojo who wanted to see what it was that held my attention so seriously - and after seeing things like kotekitae and pushups outside on the pavement - they look at me like I'm crazy for doing this or else like I'm some kind of superwoman for "putting up" with that kind of what they call "hard core" training. You've probably heard me say that I also felt at one time like pushups on asphalt were an impossiblity - but the point is - I kept going - and eventually it became just an aspect of training - not some insurmountable hill in front of me. Sure - guys have more upper body strength - pushups and hitting and other things may come more natural to some guys because of their gender and build etc. - but - women who hang in there and can surpass that initial "my God I could never do THAT" phase will find benefits to karate study that become intensely personal - and that may be more difficult for a male to understand.
Again, I'm not saying that men don't go through similar hesitations about karate study - sparring for example - many honest guys of the "90's" or whatever term you want to use will admit to all kinds of feeings and fears and such at various stages of training, testing or competition. What I AM saying though - is that this journey is different for women. Thankfully we've got many guys on these forums and within many martial arts styles who will at least acknowledge that and seek to understand it. That's a hell of a lot better than some of the other attitudes that are out there - and strangely enough - this training can help us deal with those chauvanistic types better when we do encounter them.
Kate - you are a very welcome addition to the dojo - and don't worry - you'll get plenty of chance to get into more and more contact as move up the ranks - with the spirit you have demonstrated so far - you will no doubt give some of your seniors a run for their money! (me included!)
Peace,
Lori
It's not about equality
0.02 yens worth...
The wife and I had trained for awhile and then moved to a different area. We weren't proud, just wanted to learn, so we went to a different dojo (different style as well... just so-happened to be a McKarate was the only choice). Before going there, we'd never had any colored belts in the kyu ranks and had decided to "start fresh" with the new dojo. On my wife's test, one particularly ego-driven "shodan" pulled a real knife on her... a KaBar. If she had really been a beginner, it was a tragedy in the making. As it turned out, the "shodan" ended up in a sling for a month and she walked out of the test with a trophy KaBar. She didn't even finish the test and we never went back! Decided that driving for a good dojo was worth it and found the right place to continue our training. (at least for awhile) When I became head instructor of a dojo later, I swore that any woman who trained in the dojo would always feel welcome... and anyone pulling an ego-trip would be dismissed. It only took one dismissal for the word to get out.
Point being that respect is a two-way street. Learned that from growing up with 3 sisters in the middle of nowhere! 
The wife and I had trained for awhile and then moved to a different area. We weren't proud, just wanted to learn, so we went to a different dojo (different style as well... just so-happened to be a McKarate was the only choice). Before going there, we'd never had any colored belts in the kyu ranks and had decided to "start fresh" with the new dojo. On my wife's test, one particularly ego-driven "shodan" pulled a real knife on her... a KaBar. If she had really been a beginner, it was a tragedy in the making. As it turned out, the "shodan" ended up in a sling for a month and she walked out of the test with a trophy KaBar. She didn't even finish the test and we never went back! Decided that driving for a good dojo was worth it and found the right place to continue our training. (at least for awhile) When I became head instructor of a dojo later, I swore that any woman who trained in the dojo would always feel welcome... and anyone pulling an ego-trip would be dismissed. It only took one dismissal for the word to get out.
Point being that respect is a two-way street. Learned that from growing up with 3 sisters in the middle of nowhere! It's not about equality
Allen, I have brought the play pen many times and just last week my son was asleep on the couch in the dojo. LOL
Lori, I have survived two pregnancies and total knee reconstruction after tearing every ligament in one knee. I know a little about what your talking about.
My final thoughts on this subject is that martial arts is just not for everyone (male or female). If you love it, you love it and if you don't, you won't stick with it. And if your heart is not in it, you will find an excuse to quit.
And I think if any woman is in karate for a long period, she will eventually run into the macho attitude toward her at one time or another. I have been worked over really hard in sparring at times, and I did think it was a little too much. But all I did was fight hard back, I would have never said anything like " maybe you should use just a little bit more control, we are training partners, not enemies " I'm not talking about sparring hard, on this particular incident I had bruises on my head and in my ear. That was way too much contact IMHO.
But I have faced very few men in karate that have the macho attitude. Like someone else mentioned, some are afraid to hit you with any force. I know it is difficult for some men to train with women because they don't know what to do. Should I treat them like one of the guys or should I treat them differently? They probably don't want to offend you either way.
All this brings me to a different direction on this subject. I will start a new thread and see what becomes of it.
Kristy
Lori, I have survived two pregnancies and total knee reconstruction after tearing every ligament in one knee. I know a little about what your talking about.
My final thoughts on this subject is that martial arts is just not for everyone (male or female). If you love it, you love it and if you don't, you won't stick with it. And if your heart is not in it, you will find an excuse to quit.
And I think if any woman is in karate for a long period, she will eventually run into the macho attitude toward her at one time or another. I have been worked over really hard in sparring at times, and I did think it was a little too much. But all I did was fight hard back, I would have never said anything like " maybe you should use just a little bit more control, we are training partners, not enemies " I'm not talking about sparring hard, on this particular incident I had bruises on my head and in my ear. That was way too much contact IMHO.
But I have faced very few men in karate that have the macho attitude. Like someone else mentioned, some are afraid to hit you with any force. I know it is difficult for some men to train with women because they don't know what to do. Should I treat them like one of the guys or should I treat them differently? They probably don't want to offend you either way.
All this brings me to a different direction on this subject. I will start a new thread and see what becomes of it.
Kristy
It's not about equality
I've posted this before, but here it is:
http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/lizard.html
Kristy,
In other works, Ms. Beck goes into great detail on physical differences that apply to combatives. Can't recommend it highly enough.
My dojo runs about 40% women right now. We train hard, work realistic scenarios. As training starts to pick up I learn more and more. In 'situationals' last night a relative beginner was taking down by myself and a very large student. She did exactly what she had trained and mentally rehearsed (though this was an unannounced situation, it is the sort of thing she had been visualizing). She fought, bit, and got away using power, targetting and a focussed rage.
Afterwards she said that she was completely freaked out but not scared. It took awhile to get it through my thick head but what she was saying was that the dojo environment was a place where she could physically feal real fear and learn to deal with it around people who made her feel emotionally safe. I was very proud of her performance and greatful for the insight.
Rory
http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/lizard.html
Kristy,
In other works, Ms. Beck goes into great detail on physical differences that apply to combatives. Can't recommend it highly enough.
My dojo runs about 40% women right now. We train hard, work realistic scenarios. As training starts to pick up I learn more and more. In 'situationals' last night a relative beginner was taking down by myself and a very large student. She did exactly what she had trained and mentally rehearsed (though this was an unannounced situation, it is the sort of thing she had been visualizing). She fought, bit, and got away using power, targetting and a focussed rage.
Afterwards she said that she was completely freaked out but not scared. It took awhile to get it through my thick head but what she was saying was that the dojo environment was a place where she could physically feal real fear and learn to deal with it around people who made her feel emotionally safe. I was very proud of her performance and greatful for the insight.
Rory
It's not about equality
"Kate - you are a very welcome addition to the dojo" -
Thanks for giving me the opportunity. I love (pretty much) every second I spend there. But I want to especially thank you for just making me feel welcome. Maybe one of these days I'll be able to drag Melissa out to a class, but don't hold your breath. I'm still trying though. It would be nice to have a few more women in the class.
"you will no doubt give some of your seniors a run for their money! (me included!)"
Let me just also say I can't ever imagine that happening! I can't even finish the konshiewa bunkai! But who knows I suppose if I stay with it long enough maybe I'll at least pick up a few things. I'm looking forward to knowing more.
Too bad that now I'm afraid of getting clobbered in a Sanchin check!
please get better quickly!,
Kate
Thanks for giving me the opportunity. I love (pretty much) every second I spend there. But I want to especially thank you for just making me feel welcome. Maybe one of these days I'll be able to drag Melissa out to a class, but don't hold your breath. I'm still trying though. It would be nice to have a few more women in the class.
"you will no doubt give some of your seniors a run for their money! (me included!)
" Let me just also say I can't ever imagine that happening! I can't even finish the konshiewa bunkai! But who knows I suppose if I stay with it long enough maybe I'll at least pick up a few things. I'm looking forward to knowing more.
Too bad that now I'm afraid of getting clobbered in a Sanchin check!
please get better quickly!,
Kate
It's not about equality
Ok, since I noticed many people saying they wished they heard more responses from women I thought I'd write my 2 cents.
I'm female and a teenager. I just started training so I don't have a lot of experience to speak from. What I have noticed though is not what was described above. I've never been hit too hard. (basically in Sanchin testing etc., not sparring yet) I think some of the guys go soft because they are afraid to hit too hard. Most of the time I don't say anything, but I could definetly handle it if they did get a little more forceful. But that again walks a fine line that you have to decide.
As for dropping out of the dojo, I don't think if I dropped out it would have anything to do with my gender. The only times I've ever thought about it was mainly because there was just so much I didn't know how to do and it was overwhelming trying to absorb so much. My level was so much lower than that of any one elses in the class. At times it just got to a point where I just had to decide to forcus in on something specific to try and remember instead of trying to learn it all.
I'm working on that right now. I hope once I get the basic movements for some things down then I can move on and work on other things like speed power focus etc.
Mostly I'm looking forward to the amount of contact that Karate does have. Coming from a beggining class I never made contact until about a couple of weeks ago and now it's so much different having all these people wanting me to actually hit them. I'm not quite used to it. But I can say I'm looking forward to it. I hope I get to the point where I do get to spar. I think that would be absolutely great!
A little different from the norm to have a woman looking forward to sparring and contact, but that's just me. I think it would be lots of fun! I can't wait!
(maybe I just have aggresive tendencies, who knows)
Whatever the case I hope I do stick with it. Right now I'm doing three classes a week and trying to learn as much as I can. If I ever do quit I'll be sure to come back and give you my reasons.
,
Kate
I'm female and a teenager. I just started training so I don't have a lot of experience to speak from. What I have noticed though is not what was described above. I've never been hit too hard. (basically in Sanchin testing etc., not sparring yet) I think some of the guys go soft because they are afraid to hit too hard. Most of the time I don't say anything, but I could definetly handle it if they did get a little more forceful. But that again walks a fine line that you have to decide.
As for dropping out of the dojo, I don't think if I dropped out it would have anything to do with my gender. The only times I've ever thought about it was mainly because there was just so much I didn't know how to do and it was overwhelming trying to absorb so much. My level was so much lower than that of any one elses in the class. At times it just got to a point where I just had to decide to forcus in on something specific to try and remember instead of trying to learn it all.
I'm working on that right now. I hope once I get the basic movements for some things down then I can move on and work on other things like speed power focus etc.
Mostly I'm looking forward to the amount of contact that Karate does have. Coming from a beggining class I never made contact until about a couple of weeks ago and now it's so much different having all these people wanting me to actually hit them. I'm not quite used to it. But I can say I'm looking forward to it. I hope I get to the point where I do get to spar. I think that would be absolutely great!
A little different from the norm to have a woman looking forward to sparring and contact, but that's just me. I think it would be lots of fun! I can't wait!
(maybe I just have aggresive tendencies, who knows)
Whatever the case I hope I do stick with it. Right now I'm doing three classes a week and trying to learn as much as I can. If I ever do quit I'll be sure to come back and give you my reasons.
,Kate
-
Allen M.
It's not about equality
Kristy,
I, too, know how being in charge of the play pen goes. My oldest, now in his mid-30s, would come with me to the dojo when he was in grade school. My younger ones used to come with me and sit on the floor doing homework when I once did stick-and-knife fighting (too dangerous for kids).
If one wants the martial arts bad enough, then workable concessions must be made where there are children involved.
kt,
Give it time. We were all once were you are now in techniqueability.
------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
I, too, know how being in charge of the play pen goes. My oldest, now in his mid-30s, would come with me to the dojo when he was in grade school. My younger ones used to come with me and sit on the floor doing homework when I once did stick-and-knife fighting (too dangerous for kids).
If one wants the martial arts bad enough, then workable concessions must be made where there are children involved.
kt,
Give it time. We were all once were you are now in techniqueability.
------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
