Hi all,
I have to get a females view on this. It is something I have seen and heard before but just do not understand.
I tend bar 2 nights a week. One of the waitresses is involved in a situation with her husband. The situation is that she comes to work at least once a month with a nasty shiner. The make up works for a while, but usually by the end of the shift, it becomes noticable. I have seen her husband, whom she leaves and goes back to every other week, treat her in the usual demeaning way. It is obvious she is emotionally defeated by him by their body language. I have been ordered by management and the owners to keep my nose out of it. So I do. Naturally, myself and the other guys in the restaurant are just DYING for him to grab her in the bar or dining room or outside or something. This would give us reason to show him how painful these things are.
My question is, why does she go back to him???? I have seen this sort of thing before, but I can't understand. This girl can live with her mother and does get by on her 2 jobs.
The real kick in the pants is that her brother is a cop in Boston. And he doesn't seem to do anything.
Raf
Explain this to me ladies
Moderator: Available
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Raffi Derderian
- Posts: 635
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- Location: Johnston, RI
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Explain this to me ladies
Raffi, I don't mean to be a smart mouth here but perhaps we all could benefit from knowing why her husband demonstrates his behaviour as well...why do some men think it is their god-given right to hit/abuse women?
I sometimes think that many women fall under that spell that they can "change" a man's behaviour...that it's really "not that bad" or that they somehow are sub-human and "deserve" what they get...of course, this is simply my personal opinion - I'm no expert. There could be many factors and underlying influences involved in why she stays...maybe it's the same homelife she grew up in and simply doesn't know it can be different.
The scary part is that probably some night she won't turn up for work...and then, in my view, more people than her husband will have to shoulder the guilt....I would have a hard time sleeping that night if I was her brother the cop, her mother, or the management/owner of the bar...
I sometimes think that many women fall under that spell that they can "change" a man's behaviour...that it's really "not that bad" or that they somehow are sub-human and "deserve" what they get...of course, this is simply my personal opinion - I'm no expert. There could be many factors and underlying influences involved in why she stays...maybe it's the same homelife she grew up in and simply doesn't know it can be different.
The scary part is that probably some night she won't turn up for work...and then, in my view, more people than her husband will have to shoulder the guilt....I would have a hard time sleeping that night if I was her brother the cop, her mother, or the management/owner of the bar...
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Gilbert MacIntyre
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Sydney, NS, Canada
Explain this to me ladies
Though not female, I would like to responed. I have read a few pieces on this type of behaviour and I believe the problem is with admitting your wrong. None of us like to do it, some of us are better at it than others, but really nobody likes to be seen as one who makes the wrong choices.
You see for these women it is easier to stay than it is to stand up and say"Man was I wrong on that one. He really is an Ass." So they say he'll change and he 's not really that bad and you'd like him if you just got to know him.
Now of course this is a simplified response to a complex situation. Quite often there is brainwashing and character assassination and alienation of any support system. The brother may have stepped in and been told to back off by his sister(if it sounds like I've been there it should) best thing to do is let her know if at any time they need your help your there and that doesn't just mean physical help.
Let her know that she has your support and she has what it takes to make it her own. You know if you're not happy alone, you won't be happy in a relationship. She should feel secure enough to admit she screwed up when she thought this worthless parasite was anything worth her attention.
Don't run him down that will force her to defend her decision to be with him, which means defending him.
And when all that is said and done really what you want to do is grab him and say it's your turn jerk, and put him in the hospital for a few months. Really that's more about stroking our ego than it is about helping her.
If there was one thing I would change in this world it would be this, when a woman finds herself in that type of relationship, she have a good laugh and say "What the hell was I thinking. Wow was that a mistake." and move on, unscared by the whole affair.
Gilbert.
You see for these women it is easier to stay than it is to stand up and say"Man was I wrong on that one. He really is an Ass." So they say he'll change and he 's not really that bad and you'd like him if you just got to know him.
Now of course this is a simplified response to a complex situation. Quite often there is brainwashing and character assassination and alienation of any support system. The brother may have stepped in and been told to back off by his sister(if it sounds like I've been there it should) best thing to do is let her know if at any time they need your help your there and that doesn't just mean physical help.
Let her know that she has your support and she has what it takes to make it her own. You know if you're not happy alone, you won't be happy in a relationship. She should feel secure enough to admit she screwed up when she thought this worthless parasite was anything worth her attention.
Don't run him down that will force her to defend her decision to be with him, which means defending him.
And when all that is said and done really what you want to do is grab him and say it's your turn jerk, and put him in the hospital for a few months. Really that's more about stroking our ego than it is about helping her.
If there was one thing I would change in this world it would be this, when a woman finds herself in that type of relationship, she have a good laugh and say "What the hell was I thinking. Wow was that a mistake." and move on, unscared by the whole affair.
Gilbert.
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natalie lane
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: dartmouth, ns canada
Explain this to me ladies
Raffi,
I wish I had some answers for you on this. It must be very hard to see something like that and feel helpless. If only there was something you could do. But apart from trying to talk to her, there is nothing you or anyone else can do. This woman must make her own decisions.
Beating up her man will most likely enrage him, and make him feel like he needs to further prove his manhood, so she would probably take the brunt of his anger in the form of a bad beating. That will not help her.
I am not an expert on "battered wife syndrome", but I have read a bit about it in an effort to understand why abused women (and sometimes men) stay with these partners.
Apparently these men undermine their wives confidence, self esteem, and even their relationships with their friends and family, so these women feel as if they are worthless and/or isolated with no where to turn.
Some women do try to get away, but sometimes they have children to support and no means of income, and no faith in the system to help them.(I realize the waitress does not meet this particular criteria.)
Other times men threaten to hurt them (or kill them) or their children or parents. Judging by the news I read, these are not empty threats.
I wish I had some answers for you on this. It must be very hard to see something like that and feel helpless. If only there was something you could do. But apart from trying to talk to her, there is nothing you or anyone else can do. This woman must make her own decisions.
Beating up her man will most likely enrage him, and make him feel like he needs to further prove his manhood, so she would probably take the brunt of his anger in the form of a bad beating. That will not help her.
I am not an expert on "battered wife syndrome", but I have read a bit about it in an effort to understand why abused women (and sometimes men) stay with these partners.
Apparently these men undermine their wives confidence, self esteem, and even their relationships with their friends and family, so these women feel as if they are worthless and/or isolated with no where to turn.
Some women do try to get away, but sometimes they have children to support and no means of income, and no faith in the system to help them.(I realize the waitress does not meet this particular criteria.)
Other times men threaten to hurt them (or kill them) or their children or parents. Judging by the news I read, these are not empty threats.
Explain this to me ladies
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Raffi Derderian:
The real kick in the pants is that her brother is a cop in Boston. And he doesn't seem to do anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're either part of the solution OR...
The real kick in the pants is that her brother is a cop in Boston. And he doesn't seem to do anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're either part of the solution OR...
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Allen M.
Explain this to me ladies
My mom just loved my dad more than anything else in the whole world, that's how she survived all his beatings and other traumatic events. He died 30 years ago, My mom is 84 and she still loves him. Go figure!
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Explain this to me ladies
...and my mom loved my stepbrother and sister so much that she left her first husband after he tried to burn the house down with them in it, after a fit of rage...I guess she loved them more. :-) We are such complex animals, aren't we?
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Jackie Olsen
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
- Contact:
Explain this to me ladies
Raffi,
No easy answers here. As others have said ... shame, self-esteem, self-deservement issues, boundaries being unclear, guilt over "people" knowing, not loving one's self enough, a belief that if "I just stick with him long enough ... he will change, co-dependency, I've already had a failed relationship, etc."
These issues start molding our personality in childhood ... abusive families, alcholism, drugs, you name it. And, if you live with it long enough, it becomes "normal." It creates more anxiety for the abused person to co-exist in a happy environment.
Most women (and men) in an abusive relationship believe it's their secret ... that no one really notices what's going on. So they keep on trying to "hide" by going through denial ..."it's not really that bad ... it could be worse ... perhaps, I shouldn't have yelled at him/her, then he wouldn't have a reason to hit me."
All in all, a very sad situation.
Jackie
No easy answers here. As others have said ... shame, self-esteem, self-deservement issues, boundaries being unclear, guilt over "people" knowing, not loving one's self enough, a belief that if "I just stick with him long enough ... he will change, co-dependency, I've already had a failed relationship, etc."
These issues start molding our personality in childhood ... abusive families, alcholism, drugs, you name it. And, if you live with it long enough, it becomes "normal." It creates more anxiety for the abused person to co-exist in a happy environment.
Most women (and men) in an abusive relationship believe it's their secret ... that no one really notices what's going on. So they keep on trying to "hide" by going through denial ..."it's not really that bad ... it could be worse ... perhaps, I shouldn't have yelled at him/her, then he wouldn't have a reason to hit me."
All in all, a very sad situation.
Jackie
Explain this to me ladies
Mary S-san,
Excellent!
I've often questioned paying someone to abuse us... 
Once while visiting my family, my sister invited a girl friend over to go out to dinner with us. When she arrived she had a pretty bad bruise on her jaw/cheek... My other sister asked a similar question if she was in a bad relationship and this girl told her, "Not anymore".
Excellent!
I've often questioned paying someone to abuse us... Once while visiting my family, my sister invited a girl friend over to go out to dinner with us. When she arrived she had a pretty bad bruise on her jaw/cheek... My other sister asked a similar question if she was in a bad relationship and this girl told her, "Not anymore".
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Raffi Derderian
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Oct 08, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Johnston, RI
- Contact:
Explain this to me ladies
Mary S.
That is exactly why I make sure my wife keeps her hands up when she spars. If her face gets bruised, people would think I am a wife beater!
I don't want to beat up her hubby because of my ego. I really don't know this girl well at all. I am just frustrated that anyone would let this happen to them and not do something.
Thanks for the input everyone.
Raf
That is exactly why I make sure my wife keeps her hands up when she spars. If her face gets bruised, people would think I am a wife beater!
I don't want to beat up her hubby because of my ego. I really don't know this girl well at all. I am just frustrated that anyone would let this happen to them and not do something.
Thanks for the input everyone.
Raf
Explain this to me ladies
On a related note, an interesting thing happened to me a couple of years ago, during the summer. I was sitting at a table minding my own business, reading a paper if I remember correctly, when a woman, who was a complete stranger approached my table.
My first thought was that she wanted to borrow a section of the paper and you can well imagine my surprise when the first question that came of her was "Can I as you a personal question?" I smiled and responded with a "Yes". The next question she asked me was if I was in an abusive relationship...well, not being in any relationship at the time, I was quite taken aback...so I gave a little laugh, said no and asked why? She pointed to my arms with a look of sadness and didn't say anything...
Of course it had completely slipped my mind that I was wearing a short-sleeved top and totally peppered with bruises from a rather rowdy bout of conditioning and sparring at the dojo from the night before. My arms were really bad but being used to that I hadn't thought twice about what others must have thought.
When I explained to this woman how I had arrived at the bruises and bumps we had a great giggle: "You mean actually PAY for someone to do this to you?" "Ah yes, but I get to do it back"
I also told her that I very much appreciated that she had approached me and asked me that question - it was very brave ... all too often people see things going on around them and keep their mouths shut.
Mary S
My first thought was that she wanted to borrow a section of the paper and you can well imagine my surprise when the first question that came of her was "Can I as you a personal question?" I smiled and responded with a "Yes". The next question she asked me was if I was in an abusive relationship...well, not being in any relationship at the time, I was quite taken aback...so I gave a little laugh, said no and asked why? She pointed to my arms with a look of sadness and didn't say anything...
Of course it had completely slipped my mind that I was wearing a short-sleeved top and totally peppered with bruises from a rather rowdy bout of conditioning and sparring at the dojo from the night before. My arms were really bad but being used to that I hadn't thought twice about what others must have thought.
When I explained to this woman how I had arrived at the bruises and bumps we had a great giggle: "You mean actually PAY for someone to do this to you?" "Ah yes, but I get to do it back"
I also told her that I very much appreciated that she had approached me and asked me that question - it was very brave ... all too often people see things going on around them and keep their mouths shut.
Mary S
Explain this to me ladies
Raffi
I'm glad to see that you show concern for another human being's wellfare. It's good to know there are kind hearts out there.
I went through a relationship similar to that of your waitress friend. I can say that the reason I stayed for as long as I did was because I suffered from a horribly low level of self esteem. I felt overweight (even though I wasn't then) and ugly. I believed I could change him by showing him that I loved him and could endure anything he could dish out. I even blamed myself for our failing marriage.
Now that I look back it's astounding to see how in the world I could have felt at fault. We have been divorced almost 4 years now and he's still the same way he was then (I still have to maintain contact with him, because we have a son together)... He's not changed one bit, but I have! I'm stronger now than I've ever been.
I dont know what to tell you to help you get your friend out of that situation. I profoundly defended my husband against my parents and friends for years. Then I just woke up and got out. I think I had just finally had enough, I'm still not really sure.
I wish there was a light switch on every human, but there's not... Maybe you could try introducing her to Martial Arts... maybe she would think of it as a way to defend herself. I used mine several times to defend myself against my drunk husband... he would laugh, but I'm sure I saved myself from worse injury.
Good Luck to you.
*hug*
Kimberly
I'm glad to see that you show concern for another human being's wellfare. It's good to know there are kind hearts out there.
I went through a relationship similar to that of your waitress friend. I can say that the reason I stayed for as long as I did was because I suffered from a horribly low level of self esteem. I felt overweight (even though I wasn't then) and ugly. I believed I could change him by showing him that I loved him and could endure anything he could dish out. I even blamed myself for our failing marriage.
Now that I look back it's astounding to see how in the world I could have felt at fault. We have been divorced almost 4 years now and he's still the same way he was then (I still have to maintain contact with him, because we have a son together)... He's not changed one bit, but I have! I'm stronger now than I've ever been.
I dont know what to tell you to help you get your friend out of that situation. I profoundly defended my husband against my parents and friends for years. Then I just woke up and got out. I think I had just finally had enough, I'm still not really sure.
I wish there was a light switch on every human, but there's not... Maybe you could try introducing her to Martial Arts... maybe she would think of it as a way to defend herself. I used mine several times to defend myself against my drunk husband... he would laugh, but I'm sure I saved myself from worse injury.
Good Luck to you.
*hug*
Kimberly
Explain this to me ladies
Thanks Raffi for a thought provoking thread.
Some very good input from the contributors here - many echo my own thoughts on the subject. One of the hardest questions I've heard is why would a woman (or any victim) stay in an abusive relationship? There are no easy answers! Low self-esteem, self-blame, guilt, shame, all of these things factor in. One thing that really angers me is to hear an opinion approaching any of these comments: "She should just get over it and move on - she's stupid to stay - natural selection (survival of the fittest) - if she's stupid enough to stay then she's asking for it." There are many more ignorant comments along those lines from people who have NOT been there. And no one - NO ONE can teach anyone anything if they haven't "been" there.
Interesting discussion I had with a friend lately. Imagine seeing someone in their twenties or thirties - horribly disfigured by burn scars over most of their body - the result of a horrible house fire when they were a child. Would anyone say, much less THINK - "hey - she needs to just get OVER it - what is wrong with her? Why does she tolerate looking like that?" Hell no! A physical scar or injury is something we can see, accept, and understand. Emotional scars are no less damaging (in many or even most cases MUCH more severe) but the difference is we cannot SEE them - out of sight, out of mind - or out of understanding. It's the same.
Rape victims have heard it: "Put it behind you - get on with your life!"
Ask any rape victim if it is "that easy."
The emotional components that keep a victim in an abusive relationship are very complex. The compassionate among us want to right the wrongs - change things - and make it better for the victim. Hence the impetus of Raffi's post. But what will solve the problem? He could beat up the husband - give him a taste of his own medicine. We know that won't fix it. He can report to the owner/manager of the establishment who may or may not get involved because of legal entanglements, and all the other factors that keep people from "interfering." He could report it himself on the outside of the workplace, but any agency he could report to is limited in their capacity unless the victim asks for help. All he can do is be a "safe" acquaintance - offer a domestic abuse hotline number, or leave one where she can find it - have a female friend try to talk to her about her options - and any or all of those options may have little to no effect. Why? Always "why."
I'm reading an interesting book right now that sheds some light on this subject. The title is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder by Raymond Flannery, Jr. In the book the author discusses causes and effects of PTSD on a variety of victims (veterans, rape victims, child abuse victims, etc.) and the necessary steps to emotional recovery. It is now more widely accepted in the medical community that physical illness can often be related to emotional scars or trauma and as such has sparked some new research.
Anyway - back to the book - in an introductory chapter, the author discusses "The Repetition Compulsion" where a victim will repeatedly seek out or stay in a stressful or dangerous situation.
<blockquote>From a psychological point of view, the repetition compulsion appears to be an attempt to regain the reasonable mastery that was disrupted by the original traumatic event. [in the case Raffi brings up - perhaps the first time he hit her - many spousal abuse cases start out as so called "happy marriages" - not too many make it to the altar when the abuse begins during courtship -L] Such attempts by victims provide ways to master the situation anew so that meaningful sense can be made of the event. [Like Kimberly wrote how she thought if she loved him enough she could change him. -L] Thus, victims will learn what is the best way to cope should such a horrible event befall them again.
But why does the victim actually re-create it in their lives? Why not just think it through at a later time [or after getting the hell out of there! -L] Why return to the lion's den, and deliberately expose oneself to possible further danger and pain?
The biochemistry of traumatic events appears to hold another key to our understanding of this enigma.
...the repetition compulsion ... actually brings physical relief from the pain of traumatic events. The repetition compulsion fosters the enhancement of chemicals in the brain, known as endorphins, that make us feel relaxed and calm. Since their presence in the brain produces relief, the repetition compulsion is, in effect, a form of self-medication for the painful distress that results from untreated PTSD. </blockquote>
The chapter continues with a discussion of other "self-medications" in the form of addictions, returning to abusive situations, reckless behavior, etc. So not only does the addictive behavior need treatment, but also the untreated past abuse. It is pretty well accepted that women in abusive relationships often come from abusive homes - and where they themselves may not have been abused, the trauma of watching their mothers or siblings be abused can cause emotional scarring that can be related to PTSD.
This is not a "catch-all" or an easy answer - but it seemed to provide some explanation to me as to why some people repeatedly seek out or continue in these kinds of relationships. How to help? My own feelings would be to provide an unobtrusive avenue to talk, seek help or even just some compassion, rather than judgement - as the black eye we see is only one small part of the problem.
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 06, 2000).]
Some very good input from the contributors here - many echo my own thoughts on the subject. One of the hardest questions I've heard is why would a woman (or any victim) stay in an abusive relationship? There are no easy answers! Low self-esteem, self-blame, guilt, shame, all of these things factor in. One thing that really angers me is to hear an opinion approaching any of these comments: "She should just get over it and move on - she's stupid to stay - natural selection (survival of the fittest) - if she's stupid enough to stay then she's asking for it." There are many more ignorant comments along those lines from people who have NOT been there. And no one - NO ONE can teach anyone anything if they haven't "been" there.
Interesting discussion I had with a friend lately. Imagine seeing someone in their twenties or thirties - horribly disfigured by burn scars over most of their body - the result of a horrible house fire when they were a child. Would anyone say, much less THINK - "hey - she needs to just get OVER it - what is wrong with her? Why does she tolerate looking like that?" Hell no! A physical scar or injury is something we can see, accept, and understand. Emotional scars are no less damaging (in many or even most cases MUCH more severe) but the difference is we cannot SEE them - out of sight, out of mind - or out of understanding. It's the same.
Rape victims have heard it: "Put it behind you - get on with your life!"
Ask any rape victim if it is "that easy."
The emotional components that keep a victim in an abusive relationship are very complex. The compassionate among us want to right the wrongs - change things - and make it better for the victim. Hence the impetus of Raffi's post. But what will solve the problem? He could beat up the husband - give him a taste of his own medicine. We know that won't fix it. He can report to the owner/manager of the establishment who may or may not get involved because of legal entanglements, and all the other factors that keep people from "interfering." He could report it himself on the outside of the workplace, but any agency he could report to is limited in their capacity unless the victim asks for help. All he can do is be a "safe" acquaintance - offer a domestic abuse hotline number, or leave one where she can find it - have a female friend try to talk to her about her options - and any or all of those options may have little to no effect. Why? Always "why."
I'm reading an interesting book right now that sheds some light on this subject. The title is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder by Raymond Flannery, Jr. In the book the author discusses causes and effects of PTSD on a variety of victims (veterans, rape victims, child abuse victims, etc.) and the necessary steps to emotional recovery. It is now more widely accepted in the medical community that physical illness can often be related to emotional scars or trauma and as such has sparked some new research.
Anyway - back to the book - in an introductory chapter, the author discusses "The Repetition Compulsion" where a victim will repeatedly seek out or stay in a stressful or dangerous situation.
<blockquote>From a psychological point of view, the repetition compulsion appears to be an attempt to regain the reasonable mastery that was disrupted by the original traumatic event. [in the case Raffi brings up - perhaps the first time he hit her - many spousal abuse cases start out as so called "happy marriages" - not too many make it to the altar when the abuse begins during courtship -L] Such attempts by victims provide ways to master the situation anew so that meaningful sense can be made of the event. [Like Kimberly wrote how she thought if she loved him enough she could change him. -L] Thus, victims will learn what is the best way to cope should such a horrible event befall them again.
But why does the victim actually re-create it in their lives? Why not just think it through at a later time [or after getting the hell out of there! -L] Why return to the lion's den, and deliberately expose oneself to possible further danger and pain?
The biochemistry of traumatic events appears to hold another key to our understanding of this enigma.
...the repetition compulsion ... actually brings physical relief from the pain of traumatic events. The repetition compulsion fosters the enhancement of chemicals in the brain, known as endorphins, that make us feel relaxed and calm. Since their presence in the brain produces relief, the repetition compulsion is, in effect, a form of self-medication for the painful distress that results from untreated PTSD. </blockquote>
The chapter continues with a discussion of other "self-medications" in the form of addictions, returning to abusive situations, reckless behavior, etc. So not only does the addictive behavior need treatment, but also the untreated past abuse. It is pretty well accepted that women in abusive relationships often come from abusive homes - and where they themselves may not have been abused, the trauma of watching their mothers or siblings be abused can cause emotional scarring that can be related to PTSD.
This is not a "catch-all" or an easy answer - but it seemed to provide some explanation to me as to why some people repeatedly seek out or continue in these kinds of relationships. How to help? My own feelings would be to provide an unobtrusive avenue to talk, seek help or even just some compassion, rather than judgement - as the black eye we see is only one small part of the problem.
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 06, 2000).]
