You are a female trained in martial arts, mindset, tactics, awareness, and avoidance, VSD etc.
You come home late at night after picking up your 15 year old daughter from acting recital.
In order to get home you must drive through a ghetto full of unsavory characters.
Your car breaks down smack in the middle of it. You make sure all the doors are locked, you have no cell phone, and you wait for some police car to drive by.
Suddenly you watch two punks approaching your car, one of them spits out obscene language at you and your daughter, and carries a baseball bat. Your heart jumps in your throat!
The other yells: “ get out you two, we are going to have some fun”
Now what are you going to do!! Start with VSD!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited August 08, 2000).]
serendipity
Moderator: Available
serendipity
JD,
I think they have gone to the "matresses"
wonder who is cooking the spaghetti and meat balls!
------------------
Van Canna
I think they have gone to the "matresses"
wonder who is cooking the spaghetti and meat balls!
------------------
Van Canna
serendipity
Hey - sounds like a challenge to me! I've got ideas - (of course!) but I was waiting for some other responses first! Now that I'm back seems like everyone else left - maybe I should just leave again!
serendipity
Lori,
It is not you, it is the intimidation factor of such scenarios that sends people back down their cocoons to sleep wrapped in their black belts.
------------------
Van Canna
It is not you, it is the intimidation factor of such scenarios that sends people back down their cocoons to sleep wrapped in their black belts.
------------------
Van Canna
serendipity
Canna-sempai,
Since you put it that way, I'll jump in!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Concerning the "security" of having a cellphone: Even if you do have a cellphone, the number of places that are "dead zones" is too great to rely on this mode of "help". Given the "good fortune" of being in an area with an excellent cellphone connection is no guarantee either as you'll see.
First (True Case) situation:
Woman is in unsavory part of town, stuck in vehicle, doors locked, excellent cellphone connection. Similar to the posted scenerio, the vehicle is approached by a "societally-challenged" individual who starts spitting graphic details of the rape and murder to follow... along with demands for money and to unlock the doors. Woman's husband is on the way, but that takes time. Woman tells scum-bag... ummm, societally-challenged individual that she has a cellphone and is calling the police. Knowing that dialing 911 on a cellphone will connect her to the State Police, the woman calls the operator and gets a direct connection to the local city PD. Conversation follows:
PD: (blah-blah-blah) Police Department.
Woman: Hi, my name is (blankety-blank), I'm located at (blah-blah) street and there is a man threatening to rape and murder me if I don't give him money... Please hurry!
PD: Is this an emergency? Sounds like an emergency. You have to call 911 for that.
click!
Woman (previously calm, but becoming a little frantic now) dials 911 on her cellphone. Meanwhile, the perp is banging on the hood of the car, trying to get in through various methods, and is yelling more graphic, violent threats. Converstaion follows:
State Police: Massachusetts State Police.
Woman: Hi, my name is (blankety-blank), I'm located at (blah-blah) street and there is a man threatening to rape and murder me if I don't give him money... Please hurry!
State PD: You're in (blankety-blank)?
Woman: Yes! Please hurry!
State PD: I'll transfer you to (blankety-blank)... click (queue the music from Jeopardy)
(blankety-blank) 911: (blankety-blank) 911. Please hold...
Woman: There's a man threatening...
(blankety-blank) 911: We're really busy here... Please hold. click!
Twenty minutes later when her husband arrived, the perp had decided to find something to smash out the window. The perp had located a length of discarded 2X4 and was preparing to smash the window when the husband arrived, shouted a warning at the perp, and reached for his strong side! The perp disappeared like a ghost into the night... the woman, physically unharmed was still on hold with 911!
It worked out for them... in that case. That woman no longer goes into the city without carrying her licensed .40 caliber, polymer-framed, semi-automatic loaded with Golden Sabre or Hydra-shok ammo.
As for the perp... he got away. After waiting nearly 10 more minutes to get off of hold, they hung up and left. State legislators were informed of the problem and instead of correcting it, they chose to enact more stringent gun-control measures... It's easy to do that when you have tax-payer paid for State Police armed body-guards at your beck and call...
Second (True Case) situation:
Woman and female friend are in unsavory part of town, vehicle gets a flat, no cellphone connection - "dead zone". Having been taught before how to change a tire, the woman exits the vehicle and starts to make repairs. Friend exits and acts as "look out". Again, similar to the posted scenerio, the vehicle is approached by a few "societally-challenged" individuals who start with the taunts and threats... Female friend starts to go into a panic, but is calmed by the woman who stands and faces the approaching group of testosterone. Conversation follows:
woman (in "Command" voice): Don't Move!
perps stop in their tracks...
woman (has reached to her strong-side and grasped, but not drawn, her pistol... calmly, but firmly says): I have it. I know how to shoot it. And I will use it...
Pause while perps go into shock at a woman questioning their authority to commit mayhem...
woman: So, who wants to be the big man and be the first to get his dick shot off?
Perps offer to help change tire... offer refused... perps leave... woman finishes changing tire with friend watching for more trouble.
Just like 99% of the cases of self-defense with a firearm, no shots were fired. No one was injured... in fact no gun was even drawn or shown.
So it seems that in this case the woman's VSD worked very well... but only because she had the ability to back it up.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 10, 2000).]
Since you put it that way, I'll jump in!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Car breaks down or is otherwise stopped (cars do get stopped without breaking down)......you must drive through a ghetto full of unsavory characters.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Suddenly some societally-challenged individuals decide the victim... er, I mean, woman-who-is-lower-on-the-food-chain-in-their-eyes, is a convenient play-toy...You make sure all the doors are locked, you have no cell phone...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Two real world(tm) situations.Now what are you going to do!! Start with VSD!
Concerning the "security" of having a cellphone: Even if you do have a cellphone, the number of places that are "dead zones" is too great to rely on this mode of "help". Given the "good fortune" of being in an area with an excellent cellphone connection is no guarantee either as you'll see.
First (True Case) situation:
Woman is in unsavory part of town, stuck in vehicle, doors locked, excellent cellphone connection. Similar to the posted scenerio, the vehicle is approached by a "societally-challenged" individual who starts spitting graphic details of the rape and murder to follow... along with demands for money and to unlock the doors. Woman's husband is on the way, but that takes time. Woman tells scum-bag... ummm, societally-challenged individual that she has a cellphone and is calling the police. Knowing that dialing 911 on a cellphone will connect her to the State Police, the woman calls the operator and gets a direct connection to the local city PD. Conversation follows:
PD: (blah-blah-blah) Police Department.
Woman: Hi, my name is (blankety-blank), I'm located at (blah-blah) street and there is a man threatening to rape and murder me if I don't give him money... Please hurry!
PD: Is this an emergency? Sounds like an emergency. You have to call 911 for that.
click!
Woman (previously calm, but becoming a little frantic now) dials 911 on her cellphone. Meanwhile, the perp is banging on the hood of the car, trying to get in through various methods, and is yelling more graphic, violent threats. Converstaion follows:
State Police: Massachusetts State Police.
Woman: Hi, my name is (blankety-blank), I'm located at (blah-blah) street and there is a man threatening to rape and murder me if I don't give him money... Please hurry!
State PD: You're in (blankety-blank)?
Woman: Yes! Please hurry!
State PD: I'll transfer you to (blankety-blank)... click (queue the music from Jeopardy)
(blankety-blank) 911: (blankety-blank) 911. Please hold...
Woman: There's a man threatening...
(blankety-blank) 911: We're really busy here... Please hold. click!
Twenty minutes later when her husband arrived, the perp had decided to find something to smash out the window. The perp had located a length of discarded 2X4 and was preparing to smash the window when the husband arrived, shouted a warning at the perp, and reached for his strong side! The perp disappeared like a ghost into the night... the woman, physically unharmed was still on hold with 911!
It worked out for them... in that case. That woman no longer goes into the city without carrying her licensed .40 caliber, polymer-framed, semi-automatic loaded with Golden Sabre or Hydra-shok ammo.
As for the perp... he got away. After waiting nearly 10 more minutes to get off of hold, they hung up and left. State legislators were informed of the problem and instead of correcting it, they chose to enact more stringent gun-control measures... It's easy to do that when you have tax-payer paid for State Police armed body-guards at your beck and call...
Second (True Case) situation:
Woman and female friend are in unsavory part of town, vehicle gets a flat, no cellphone connection - "dead zone". Having been taught before how to change a tire, the woman exits the vehicle and starts to make repairs. Friend exits and acts as "look out". Again, similar to the posted scenerio, the vehicle is approached by a few "societally-challenged" individuals who start with the taunts and threats... Female friend starts to go into a panic, but is calmed by the woman who stands and faces the approaching group of testosterone. Conversation follows:
woman (in "Command" voice): Don't Move!
perps stop in their tracks...
woman (has reached to her strong-side and grasped, but not drawn, her pistol... calmly, but firmly says): I have it. I know how to shoot it. And I will use it...
Pause while perps go into shock at a woman questioning their authority to commit mayhem...
woman: So, who wants to be the big man and be the first to get his dick shot off?
Perps offer to help change tire... offer refused... perps leave... woman finishes changing tire with friend watching for more trouble.
Just like 99% of the cases of self-defense with a firearm, no shots were fired. No one was injured... in fact no gun was even drawn or shown.
So it seems that in this case the woman's VSD worked very well... but only because she had the ability to back it up.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 10, 2000).]
serendipity
Panther,
Kudos to you! Never disappointing. More to follow after camp!
------------------
Van Canna
Kudos to you! Never disappointing. More to follow after camp!
------------------
Van Canna
serendipity
Use the horn in the car to alert others that something is wrong! Lean on it until the thing burns out or the battery dies. But DO NOT GET OUT OF THE CAR!
In the second case scenario listed in Panthers post, The woman did use VSD, but the threat of defense with the weapon was predominately the mitigating factor. The idea that a gun would be used for defense was too great for the perps to dimiss even if they did not see the gun.
The use of these "command" phrases, usually will work if they actually see the gun. Then they know the VSD will be backed up.
In Van's scenario, there is no mention of a gun being present, so I would assume that they do not have any projectile defense. If the woman is calm enough to fake that she is carrying a gun, and begins VSD "commands" similar to the second scenario that Panther described, the baseball bat carrying perps may leave. Or they may decide to challenge the use of the gun. If they leave, they may also come back with a gun of their own, before you are able to get help.
Never get out of the car, ever. The woman in Panthers second scenario did get out and was able to fix her vehicle and leave the area. Only because she; 1)had gun; 2)knew how to use VSD commands, and 3)was willing to shoot them.
The women in Van's scenario do not know what is wrong with car and with no way to get help should not even get out of the car. Sounding a car horn for more than a few seconds will make most people look out the windows to see just what the **** is going on. Someone might see the two perps with a bat and two females being threatened and call the police. Even in the ghettos there are many decent people who do not like or tolerate the unsavory characters that populate their areas.
Anybody trained in MA, awareness, avoidance and mindset, should have the foresight to know what kind of area the recital is in and what route to and from the recital to take. If there is no way to avoid the route through the ghetto, one must use their awareness training and prepare their vehicle for the possibility of failure. This could include road flares kept under the seat, mace in the pocketbook, or an air horn if no cell phone is available. A flare gun used for boating makes a good weapon and it helps to alert others to your plight. The airhorn will also alert any in the area who might call the police for help, and is much louder than a car horn. All these things can be safely used while still in the car and only if the perps break the windows to try to get in.
I know of one lady, the owner of a boat, who was surprised by a perp on the way to her car in a parking lot of a garage. When the perp snuck up behind and grabed her, she reached into her pocketbook and withdrew the air horn. She aimed it about two inches from the perps ear as she pressed and held the button. The perp not only released her from his grab, he ran off holding his ear and probably still can't hear all that well from that ear.
VSD will not work in all situations. You must be able to back up a threat. If you pretend to have a gun and are still challenged, you will be overpowered and raped or killed. If someone has a bat and you threaten that you are going to shoot him, and he does not see the gun, he may just hurl the bat at you and duck, dodge and lunge at you to try to keep you from drawing it. Then when they find out you really were bluffing...
------------------
Len Testa
In the second case scenario listed in Panthers post, The woman did use VSD, but the threat of defense with the weapon was predominately the mitigating factor. The idea that a gun would be used for defense was too great for the perps to dimiss even if they did not see the gun.
The use of these "command" phrases, usually will work if they actually see the gun. Then they know the VSD will be backed up.
In Van's scenario, there is no mention of a gun being present, so I would assume that they do not have any projectile defense. If the woman is calm enough to fake that she is carrying a gun, and begins VSD "commands" similar to the second scenario that Panther described, the baseball bat carrying perps may leave. Or they may decide to challenge the use of the gun. If they leave, they may also come back with a gun of their own, before you are able to get help.
Never get out of the car, ever. The woman in Panthers second scenario did get out and was able to fix her vehicle and leave the area. Only because she; 1)had gun; 2)knew how to use VSD commands, and 3)was willing to shoot them.
The women in Van's scenario do not know what is wrong with car and with no way to get help should not even get out of the car. Sounding a car horn for more than a few seconds will make most people look out the windows to see just what the **** is going on. Someone might see the two perps with a bat and two females being threatened and call the police. Even in the ghettos there are many decent people who do not like or tolerate the unsavory characters that populate their areas.
Anybody trained in MA, awareness, avoidance and mindset, should have the foresight to know what kind of area the recital is in and what route to and from the recital to take. If there is no way to avoid the route through the ghetto, one must use their awareness training and prepare their vehicle for the possibility of failure. This could include road flares kept under the seat, mace in the pocketbook, or an air horn if no cell phone is available. A flare gun used for boating makes a good weapon and it helps to alert others to your plight. The airhorn will also alert any in the area who might call the police for help, and is much louder than a car horn. All these things can be safely used while still in the car and only if the perps break the windows to try to get in.
I know of one lady, the owner of a boat, who was surprised by a perp on the way to her car in a parking lot of a garage. When the perp snuck up behind and grabed her, she reached into her pocketbook and withdrew the air horn. She aimed it about two inches from the perps ear as she pressed and held the button. The perp not only released her from his grab, he ran off holding his ear and probably still can't hear all that well from that ear.
VSD will not work in all situations. You must be able to back up a threat. If you pretend to have a gun and are still challenged, you will be overpowered and raped or killed. If someone has a bat and you threaten that you are going to shoot him, and he does not see the gun, he may just hurl the bat at you and duck, dodge and lunge at you to try to keep you from drawing it. Then when they find out you really were bluffing...
------------------
Len Testa
serendipity
Van,
I think (but it is only MY opinion) you should have started this topic in the VSD Forum.
Unless you had something else on your mind...
------------------
Len Testa
I think (but it is only MY opinion) you should have started this topic in the VSD Forum.
Unless you had something else on your mind...
------------------
Len Testa
serendipity
Testa-sempai,
There is one little difference in the situations I posted and the ones that Canna-sempai posited...
Mine really happened... I have first-hand knowledge of both incidents (not hear-say... not a friend of a friend of a friend's second cousin once told me about it... )
In the scenerios that Canna-sempai started with, he never suggested one way or another how the woman involved may or may not be armed. In my second real life situation, a somewhat similar situation occurred... yet the woman was armed! And trained as well. While I completely agree that making any VSD suggestion with an implication of armed backup had better not be a bluff... I gotta tell you that this same woman was once confronted in Harvard Square by 4 unsavory characters with the intent of liberating her shopping from her. She dropped the packages, looked directly at them and said, "Just you four? This should be fun, I need the practice!" The leader stepped forward and slapped her hard across the face making an "Oh really B****" comment. Whereupon she hauled off and slapped him back (even harder... she knows how to gain power from her stance/hips ) and said, "You wanna start with patty-cake, that's fine by me." The four "gentlemen" decided to move on! Personally, I would have given them the stuff, but at the time she was young, was carrying all of her hard-saved-for Christmas presents, had no more money to replace the items, and wasn't going to let anyone ruin her holiday! How do I know that happened for real? Her two friends that were with her had all of their presents stolen by the girl-friends of these guys at the same time!
Canna-sempai can correct me if I'm wrong, but IMNSHO, his scenerio is one of those cases where simple VSD just plain won't work! I suggest that a woman (or anyone for that matter) in such a position (no help, no escape, threatened by greater force, threated with imminent death or grave bodily harm) would be well served to realize that their best chance for survival against such overpowering odds is to own, carry, and know how to use a... gun. I know plenty of women martial artists who can kick the bejezus out of most men I know... including myself... but I wouldn't bet a nickel on any of them in an unarmed altercation with multiple, armed street thugs. In fact, I wouldn't bet a nickel on any of the men I know in the same circumstances! Maybe there are some who would survive it (I know some of us that post here have)... maybe not. Regardless, I wouldn't bank on it. The woman in Harvard Square I know?... just damn lucky in my opinion. She carries a pistol these days... even though she is trained and ranked in multiple martial arts.
Just my take on it... Your mileage may vary.
BTW... Similar situation, but say it's a woman that is dear to you...
What would you want her to have?
A cellphone (to call 911),
one of those loud little air-horn thingies (does being deaf stop a rapist... really?),
pepper-spray,
a Kubaton key-chain with some training (even a black-belt), or
a .40 caliber polymer-framed, hi-capacity, semi-automatic pistol loaded with black talons along with the training & determination to use it?
Your call (actually, her call)...
I know my choice!
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 10, 2000).]
There is one little difference in the situations I posted and the ones that Canna-sempai posited...
Mine really happened... I have first-hand knowledge of both incidents (not hear-say... not a friend of a friend of a friend's second cousin once told me about it...
)In the scenerios that Canna-sempai started with, he never suggested one way or another how the woman involved may or may not be armed. In my second real life situation, a somewhat similar situation occurred... yet the woman was armed! And trained as well. While I completely agree that making any VSD suggestion with an implication of armed backup had better not be a bluff... I gotta tell you that this same woman was once confronted in Harvard Square by 4 unsavory characters with the intent of liberating her shopping from her. She dropped the packages, looked directly at them and said, "Just you four? This should be fun, I need the practice!" The leader stepped forward and slapped her hard across the face making an "Oh really B****" comment. Whereupon she hauled off and slapped him back (even harder... she knows how to gain power from her stance/hips
) and said, "You wanna start with patty-cake, that's fine by me." The four "gentlemen" decided to move on! Personally, I would have given them the stuff, but at the time she was young, was carrying all of her hard-saved-for Christmas presents, had no more money to replace the items, and wasn't going to let anyone ruin her holiday! How do I know that happened for real? Her two friends that were with her had all of their presents stolen by the girl-friends of these guys at the same time! Canna-sempai can correct me if I'm wrong, but IMNSHO, his scenerio is one of those cases where simple VSD just plain won't work! I suggest that a woman (or anyone for that matter) in such a position (no help, no escape, threatened by greater force, threated with imminent death or grave bodily harm) would be well served to realize that their best chance for survival against such overpowering odds is to own, carry, and know how to use a... gun. I know plenty of women martial artists who can kick the bejezus out of most men I know... including myself... but I wouldn't bet a nickel on any of them in an unarmed altercation with multiple, armed street thugs. In fact, I wouldn't bet a nickel on any of the men I know in the same circumstances! Maybe there are some who would survive it (I know some of us that post here have)... maybe not. Regardless, I wouldn't bank on it. The woman in Harvard Square I know?... just damn lucky in my opinion. She carries a pistol these days... even though she is trained and ranked in multiple martial arts.
Just my take on it... Your mileage may vary.
BTW... Similar situation, but say it's a woman that is dear to you...
What would you want her to have?
A cellphone (to call 911),
one of those loud little air-horn thingies (does being deaf stop a rapist... really?),
pepper-spray,
a Kubaton key-chain with some training (even a black-belt), or
a .40 caliber polymer-framed, hi-capacity, semi-automatic pistol loaded with black talons along with the training & determination to use it?
Your call (actually, her call)...
I know my choice!
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 10, 2000).]
-
Allen M.
serendipity
Sometimes there is no such thing as VSD!
What happens if you and your wife take an exit off interstate 95 into a burb of Philly looking for gas right where they were overturning cars and setting them on fire around 1968 or so, and kind of got stuck in the middle, was being rushed, as a good size stone or brick hit the driverside window and broke it? There just are not enough bullets in the magazine of a .45 to stop the rapidly advancing two-legged trafic.
There is only one way out! Take aim right down the middle, floor it, and hope to hell they all get out of the way because you're coming through.
What happens if you and your wife take an exit off interstate 95 into a burb of Philly looking for gas right where they were overturning cars and setting them on fire around 1968 or so, and kind of got stuck in the middle, was being rushed, as a good size stone or brick hit the driverside window and broke it? There just are not enough bullets in the magazine of a .45 to stop the rapidly advancing two-legged trafic.
There is only one way out! Take aim right down the middle, floor it, and hope to hell they all get out of the way because you're coming through.
-
Tony-San
serendipity
The topic can easily be moved by the moderator to another forum with the Archive/Move command at the bottom of the page.
serendipity
Allen-san,
In your scenerio, with the car still running/drivable... exactly, use the vehicle to escape. I've even told folks to forget the tire/rim and just drive on a flat until you get out of a bad area (something, I told the woman who changed the flat Her response was that she was a long way from home and didn't realize the area was "that bad"). However, the scenerio described by Canna-sempai and the situations I related, both involve an unmovable vehicle... for whatever reason.
I happen to disagree with your contention that there aren't enough bullets. In the magazine perhaps, but that's why one carries 2 spare hi-cap mags as well as a fully-loaded hi-cap w/ one in the chamber. The .40/10mm has lots more power than the .38/9mm while having more capacity than the average .45ACP ... IMNSHO, unless you carry one of those nifty Para-Ordinance hi-capacity .45ACP, then I prefer the .40 for the extra capacity. If limited by legislative fiat to 10 round magazines, I'd carry twice as many... As for the rapidly advancing two-legged traffic... Reports and studies have shown that once you stop the threat from the mob leaders, you'd be surprised at how quickly others decide that attacking you isn't worth it any longer. And being able to quickly acquire/reacquire moving targets is just part of a good practice regimen.
So, with a disabled vehicle and a gang of hooligans, I still vote for having the pistol that I always carry into the city... if it comes to the point where I run out of primary ammo, then I'll go to the backup... when that's out of ammo, then I'll go for the folder, pepper-spray and hand-to-hand... if I get overwhelmed at that point... then I guess my heirs can have a giant closed casket funeral. The insurance payment should cover at least that much.
AND I'd personally want any woman that I know or love to do the same thing... a kind of "instant karma" for the attackers (and F' the lenient court system).
Just my survival instincts...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 11, 2000).]
In your scenerio, with the car still running/drivable... exactly, use the vehicle to escape. I've even told folks to forget the tire/rim and just drive on a flat until you get out of a bad area (something, I told the woman who changed the flat
Her response was that she was a long way from home and didn't realize the area was "that bad"). However, the scenerio described by Canna-sempai and the situations I related, both involve an unmovable vehicle... for whatever reason.I happen to disagree with your contention that there aren't enough bullets. In the magazine perhaps, but that's why one carries 2 spare hi-cap mags as well as a fully-loaded hi-cap w/ one in the chamber. The .40/10mm has lots more power than the .38/9mm while having more capacity than the average .45ACP ... IMNSHO, unless you carry one of those nifty Para-Ordinance hi-capacity .45ACP, then I prefer the .40 for the extra capacity. If limited by legislative fiat to 10 round magazines, I'd carry twice as many... As for the rapidly advancing two-legged traffic... Reports and studies have shown that once you stop the threat from the mob leaders, you'd be surprised at how quickly others decide that attacking you isn't worth it any longer. And being able to quickly acquire/reacquire moving targets is just part of a good practice regimen.
So, with a disabled vehicle and a gang of hooligans, I still vote for having the pistol that I always carry into the city... if it comes to the point where I run out of primary ammo, then I'll go to the backup... when that's out of ammo, then I'll go for the folder, pepper-spray and hand-to-hand... if I get overwhelmed at that point... then I guess my heirs can have a giant closed casket funeral. The insurance payment should cover at least that much.
AND I'd personally want any woman that I know or love to do the same thing... a kind of "instant karma" for the attackers (and F' the lenient court system).
Just my survival instincts...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 11, 2000).]
