Naked Prey from a Woman's Point of View

A place to share ideas, concerns, questions, and thoughts about women and the martial arts.

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Lori
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Naked Prey from a Woman's Point of View

Post by Lori »

OK - close to topic stealing - but we've already acknowledged that subject matter often crosses forums - hence my presumption on posting this subject matter.

Van Sensei posts an interesting scenario that I think very valid for women to consider. Responses on his forum, are of course, seeking a realistic point of view in the consideration of "what if." Personally, I believe the "I would's" on that thread are tainted heavily by gender and testosterone, (no offense guys!) so I added my opinion there. I would like to propose a similar discussion here - but focusing on the differences involving gender - the "I would's" on his proposed situation belong on the original thread, found here: http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum2/HTML/000681.html

What I would like to try and get here - is the following similar scenario - but the intended "prey" is decidedly female: (based on a true story - not mine - newspaper)

A woman living in a rural area takes her car and her two young daughters out to buy a gallon of milk, during the day, at the convenience store down the road instead of driving the 20 miles to the grocery store. She has no guns, no other weapons, no cell phone. At the store, the only car in the parking lot, as she straps her toddler into the carseat in the back, a BG jumps in the front seat which is now unlocked (power locks unlock everything so she could get the kids in the car) presses a knife into the neck of the older daughter, starting to draw blood, and tells the mother to get in and drive. Paralyzed with fear for her child she pulls out of the parking lot and is quickly told to pull off the road.

First: What would you do if you are/were female (guys - you can pretend - good empathy training)

Second: Would this even happen to a male? (same exact scenario - but father instead of mother)

Third: How would the situation differ at all if it would happen to a guy?

FINALLY: And only after the first three are considered - what would have been her better choices? Some are of course obvious to regulars here and on the Realities forum, yet they bear repeating for those who may be reading and considering this for the first time.

Go for it.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited September 02, 2000).]
student
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Post by student »

Lori:

At some time I will try and answer these questions myself - but not just yet.

This is the Women In Martial Arts Forum, after all; should not some of our women readers cybervoice their opinions first, lest some become discouraged by the male points of view taking preponderance on their Forum? I know you invited us Y-gene carriers also, but I believe that this is a case for "Ladies First!"

I merely post to bring what IMHO is a potentially very important thread to the top for consideration.

Lori M-D?

Mary S?

Jackie O?

Kristy?

Anyone?


student
Scott Cargill
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Post by Scott Cargill »

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lori:


A woman living in a rural area takes her car and her two young daughters out to buy a gallon of milk, during the day, at the convenience store down the road instead of driving the 20 miles to the grocery store. She has no guns, no other weapons, no cell phone. At the store, the only car in the parking lot, as she straps her toddler into the carseat in the back, a BG jumps in the front seat which is now unlocked (power locks unlock everything so she could get the kids in the car) presses a knife into the neck of the older daughter, starting to draw blood, and tells the mother to get in and drive. Paralyzed with fear for her child she pulls out of the parking lot and is quickly told to pull off the road.


Wow!, uggg I personally don't think gender is going to be an issue here, you've got two choices, abandon your children and draw attention to the attack (yelling, ect) Or climb in and capitualate. You're at the mercy of your concience. Short of having a gun or some form of medium to long range weapon, you're smoked.

As it is a knife attack, I'm going to say that I would capitulate in the hopes of having an oppurtunity later to turn the tables on the guy.

Either way that has to be one of the worst scinarios I would never want to face.
Allen M.

Naked Prey from a Woman's Point of View

Post by Allen M. »

Heh, heh! When I was first experimenting with how to shoot the bone (about 12), I flipped it at the wrong person when my mom was driving me to someplace in Providence.

When she parked the car, this big burly (looked like a street bum and smelled like one too) reached in the window and started pulling me out. My mom flew out the driver's side and had him up against the side of the brick building with his feet off the ground faster than I could say “Jes….ist!”

That's her and I two weeks before my accident in 1981.

Image


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Lori
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Post by Lori »

Go Mom Moulton!

Lucky the guy wasn't armed!

I had some behind the forum scenes correspondence on this one and it is an incredibly difficult scenario - probably why no one wants to venture a potential outcome.

The real outcome was very sad.

Children involved adds an emotional component that may be impossible to overcome. But as I asked in the email exchange - would a mother bear back off as a predatory animal was attacking her cubs just because the predator growled or "told" her to back off?

Crashing the car into the store may be an option - then perhaps use the advantage of the shock of impact to get the girl away from the guy - but who knows.

Something to consider though.

I set up scenarios for my daughter to consider at times just to see where her head is at and I add details making them seem to be impossible situations for a few reasons - 1) so she considers these possiblities before getting herself into a real situation 2) so she thinks beyond the first response - getting out of "the box" 3) so I can see how she is thinking these days 4) so she is reminded that reality is more than school and friends and hobbies.

She hates it to start with - then gets in the spirit of the "game" and tries to defeat the obstacles I keep throwing at her.

So - since no women are biting - do you guys think that actually considering a scenario like this ahead of time would have any value or benefit if it did happen?

It is - as I mentioned - a true story - without a happy ending.
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

No offense, but women really have no presence on this forum. Wonder why.

There must be at least a few hundreds hiding and lurking in the shadows. What holds women back from posting?

What are they afraid of? Or is it safer to stick your head in the sand!! Image

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Mary S
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Post by Mary S »

Nothing like getting prodded in the backside with a couple of sharp sticks!!! Image

Okay....I'll step out on the ledge here!!! It's a long post and I apologize for that but there are no convenient quick answers.

First things first...my child(ren)'s safety would be at all times of paramount importance to me. More important than the convenience of distance, time, etc.

So, there are a few things I would like to point out before we ever get to the "knife against my child's throat" part of the scenario.

I would have done a few things differently to begin with....firstly, I am ALWAYS conscious of the space around my car. I check the tires (passenger and driver's side) when I approach (nothing like a pop bottle wedged under a tire to ruin your day!!! Image ) This would be my cursory look out for BG.

Any strange characters I see lurking, the child who can walk immediately goes behind me and close to buildings (run to safety). It is not above me to ask (read "demand") a person from a distance if I can "help them" if I see them close to my lonely car in the parking lot or even to tell them to get away from my car...and with a firm but annoyed voice too I might add!

Secondly, in a parking lot (even empty) my children do not leave my side....ever!!! I would drill this into their heads from day one!!!! We approach the vehicle all together...there is no breaking out of the herd out of sight! (Herd mentality...ah!!) Image

Next you mention the car has power locks....my car has power locks...activated by unlocking the driver's door. Once my door is open, simply by pushing down the locking device, the other doors lock again. So what? Well, firstly I would have loaded my two younger children into the back seat from the driver's side of the car, where I can see them and be "more in control". The doors on the passengers side remain locked and short of breaking a window, they are inaccessible. I would have loaded the older of the two children in first. The most vulnerable of the children would stay with me, to be loaded in secondly. Seat belt does NOT go on elder child until I am in the car...just in case window gets broken, arm reaches in...she has a better chance to scramble away....we drive with the car doors locked.

Now we get to the knife...

Hysterical screaming, sobbing, crying behaviour will do nothing to alleviate an already tense situation. If you are calm and/or show a calm exterior, your child will remain calm...the attacker "may" remain calm. No big movements. No threatening attitude. If an attacker is calm, sometimes defences come down - with a sense of compliance there is often a lull in attention...as the "victim" I want to be calm, quiet, alert and, when the "opportunity window opens"...I want to be there!!!

Lori, I especially like your drill scenarios with your daughter...every parent should do this...have a plan...like planning a fire escape route in your house.

Keys do NOT go in the ignition until we are ready to go...and they would be used as a bartering device. "Let my children and me get out of the car and you will get my keys. You can have my car and all my money. You can drive wherever you want to go and I will not stop you". Not in a pleading, whining voice...calm and rational...always...and of course, let's not forget keys CAN be used as a weapon!! Movement to the second scene (as far as I have been told, and I happen to believe, is probably the worst thing that can happen)!! Getting your children and yourself out of the car, the best....that would be my main goal.

So, remembering that my children are in the backseat of my vehicle, where the BG would have to get himself into an awkward to position to stick a knife to my child's throat (unless he broke a window)....one wrong step by the BG and his a$$ is mine....there is no mercy - it will be to the death, I can deal with the psychological trauma my children have later. This is ONLY if my children are still at risk...if not...he goes with my car and my money and the lousy gallon of milk...they are just things...not nearly as valuable as my children or my own life.

Of course every situation is different ...every attack is different and every action/reaction should be gauged appropriately.

Mary


[This message has been edited by Mary S (edited September 06, 2000).]
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Mary,

Most excellent.

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BILLY B
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Post by BILLY B »

Mary,

I agree with Van.

I was meaning to respond here, and thought better of it several times...

I have been thinking about this for a while now, espescially Lori-Sensei's prod to "pretend to be a woman"! Ha! Fat chance!

Let me point one thing out though. Men and woman use their brains differently. That is evidenced by Mary's post. Women have the ability to consider multiple options while under stress because they routinly do this on a daily basis. (Or so I understand.)

Men don't have this ability. We focus on one thing at a time.

So I figure the first step for a woman is to calmly look at all the possibilities. Such as what is going to happen at the second crime scene. We all know it is going to be at least rape....

I am just trying to steer the topic towards identifying mens and womens unique attributes and how we can capitilize on them under stress.

I would love to see somebody more knowledgeable than I elaborate on this, male or female!

I have to run, my wife is getting pissed at me for ignoring her! Hope this made sense, bye!

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david
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Post by david »

Preparing the children... timely since I just got into a mini tiff with my ten year old son about awareness and precaution. He is at the age where he wants a little independence. We started to let him out to play outside on his own -- with a lump in our throats. He is a tough, self-confident, precocious and outgoing kid. That may be his undoing...

Several weeks ago, I drove into my center's underground garage, got out with my two kids who were attending the day camp. Heading towards the door, I spotted a guy in the corner of the garage several cars away. He was partially hiddened by a car. I immediately took note that the kids were next to me and began to ask authoratively what the guy was doing there and who he was. The guy said he worked across the street, he was taking a quiet break, blah, blah, blah... At that point, my oldest started walking towards the guy and was almost there when I in a loud voice -- perhaps, even at a screaming level -- "GET BACK OVER HERE!!!" My son complied but petulantly since I rarely raise my voice to him and he doesn't react well to that. Anyway, I finished by telling the guy he doesn't belong in the garage that he was trespassing and he needed to leave. I dropped the kids off and went back to check on the guy. He had left in the interim.

The whole incident has raised the issue of scenario preparation with the kids. We did it before and have to do it again. Kids just don't retain everything. Of course, my oldest is a struggle. He fancies himself as a "tough" kid and can handle himself. And he can with other kids. But he doesn't seem to realize that's not the same with adults or adults with weapons. So here we go again.

I shudder to think what could have happened. My mental preparation is that I will not submit to an attacker even if he were physically threatening my children. I will look the devil in the eyes and say, "You hurt my kid, I will make you pay dearly and painfully." I will have extracted my weapons as an exclamation and in preparation for just that.

Those who believe acquiecing will lead to a better outcome need to (re)read Lester Strong. Also, read Geoff Thompson's Dead or Alive. In the latter, rapists/murderers were interviewed. Several of these, in fact, used the hostage of the child(ren) against the parents and described how it worked. The outcomes were uniformly horrendous.

david
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