A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

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Lori
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Lori »

...the more ya' beat 'em the better they be!
-Stephen Crane The Red Badge of Courage

Just finished watching the old film version of this story with my teenager (cheating on her summer reading requirements) and we both keeled over at this line - the things we are teaching our kids in school these days!

Seriously - how all-pervasive is this mentality! It's been around for ages - and will no doubt continue for ages more... Crane's story speaks of manhood, and other timeless journeys of the soul - we are defined and constrained by that which we are told, follow and seek to believe in order to find our place in this world... too often we "go along" because that is the way "things are done."

How to teach our young men that being a man doesn't mean that these old adages have to be followed - and still let them be men?

How to teach our young women that this is NOT their lot in life - that our roles are different yet sacred and worthy of respect?
Allen M.

A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Allen M. »

This is where mom and pop come in, Lori.

Seeing that a lot of animals have been running around these forums lately, I guess it's safe to bring out the chicken and the egg story!

How are you going to have good kids unless you have good parents, and how are you going to have good parents unless they are good kids!

Let me see... Let the STATE take over raising of the children?

Howz that one for starters?
Lori
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Lori »

Well Allen, no one else bit on this one. Too many people content with the way things are...

Just finished reading a very enlightening book, called Reviving Ophelia: Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls - recommended before this forum I think - anyway - I saw it in the bookstore during my most recent Logan nightmare (no less than 4 flight cancellations - lots of time to browse the stores...) and I'm glad I did. Granted, teenagers are STILL aliens from another planet, however, this book makes a real case for the impact society, media, culture and peers have on our young girls, and how the majority of this impact is so negative and robs them of their sense of "self." Sheds a lot of light on some of the questions we beat ourselves up with - why girls from secure, nurturing, loving homes end up on drugs or in serious trouble - why girls from horrible broken homes can end up as survivors - and - vice versa of course. There seems to be no rhyme or reason when we consider what happens to these young women as they move toward adulthood, and the difficulties they face do not have an easy solution - Dr. Pipher, the author of this book - offers some of the most sensible insight I have ever seen on the subject. Anyone who is raising, has raised, or has been an adolescent girl should give this book a read.

Point being - as I rambled away there - was that parents are NOT always the cause of the craziness. However, they certainly can and do make an incredible impact.

Oh brother - to let "big brother" in on the game even more - letting the state come in and run things - yea - that could mess up a steel ball as they say - imagine what it would do to this already fragile element of our society. Not that there isn't great strength to be found in these girls - it is amazing enough that they survive and grow into capable women with what they have to deal with.

More in future posts most likely - I think the book carries some important messages.



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Peace,
Lori
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BILLY B
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by BILLY B »

Lori,

I must admitt I have no clue on this subject... really don't know what all the issues are having never been there in any capacity.

"..our roles are different yet sacred and worthy of respect ...."

Very well put!

Perhaps that is the mantra that should be hammered into both young men and young women?

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"There ain't no graduation from this kind of education"
Allen M.

A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Allen M. »

Well Lori,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
letting the state come in and run things
Figured you'd pick up on that one, Lori. Bet you've heard some horror shows too!

From my experiences raising children, sometimes kids will go either good or bad in spite of how their parents raise them, and sometimes they will do their thing out of spite too.

However, we must set true guidelines for them, even though they may not recognize them, if they recognize them at all, until they are into their 30s (my eldest).

I once wished they'd make invisible fences -- like the electric ones for dogs -- for kids. At least they make "The Club" to lock up the steering wheel on their car when you get down and serious. Sometimes you've just got to fight dirty. And they know what's coming when I lead off by saying "I've been where you are and wouldn't want to go where you're headed..." Sound familiar?

Someone ought to write a book on neat little sayings during verbal confrontation [VSD?] time. I think I've worn out my personal glossary many times over.

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited September 04, 2000).]
Lori
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Lori »

Billy-B san,

Thanks for your honesty and kind words.

Don't know if you have children yet or are planning to - but if you have had or ever do have a female child - these things will become paramount in importance eventually.

Good idea for the "hammering in" of the concept - but it would never fly -the politically correct, the bureaucracy, the red tape, the people afraid of "cults", (rightfully so in some cases) the far right - the far left - all would have an objection. As it is now we teach all these conflicting messages - girls should be feminine but not too sexy, hard to get is an accepted game, "no" means try harder, it goes on and on. But I'm starting to think that the effects on our young women are very dangerous - the rise in incidents of suicide, teen pregnancy, STD's, self-mutiliation, eating disorders is really quite frightening. Yet the majority of the studies on adolescence are on boys - who somehow do not manifest the same severity of reactions to culture's demands as they become adults. But the problem, as I stated above, is not ONLY in the home (although again I reiterate - that plays a big part) but also in our culture. We must effect a societal change if we are to reverse this problem. A monumentous undertaking - but are our children, and their children, worth it?
Allen M.

A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Allen M. »

Here Ya Go, Lori. Hot off the press:

=====> Who should pay for child care?
Local governments are increasingly inserting themselves into the
business of providing child care, relieving parents of the
responsibility of caring for their own offspring. (9/5/00)
URL: http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/09/05/p1s1.htm

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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Lori
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Lori »

Allen - thanks for the link. A very good article that seems to fairly treat many of the issues facing any working mother with pre-school age children.

I know it was a difficult struggle for me as a single mother of a young child - when she got to kindergarten - and costs dropped from full-time care to after-school care - my budget breathed a hefty sigh of relief!

This comment hit home with me: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
From my experiences raising children, sometimes kids will go either good or bad in spite of how their parents raise them, and sometimes they will do their thing out of spite too.
I believe that would be a lot of parent's/people's experience. So what's the solution? Here's an exerpt from Dr. Pipher's book on this subject that I found interesting:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

Psychologists who study what kinds of families produce what kinds of children have focused on two broad dimensions. The first has to do with affection. At one end are the parents who are accepting, responsive and child-centered; at the other end are parents who are rejectiong, unresponsive and parent-centered. The second dimension has to do with control strategies. At one end are parents who are undemanding and low in control, and at the other end are parents who are demanding and high in control.

These two dimensions interact to produce different outcomes for teenagers. Low-contorl and low-acceptance parents produce teens with a variety of problems, including delinquency and chemical dependency. Parents who are high in control and low in acceptance (authoritarian parents) have children who are socially inadequate and lacking in confidence. Parents who are low in control and high in acceptance (indulgent parents) have teenagers with high impulsivity, low responsibility and low independence. Parents who are high in control and high in acceptance (strict but loving parents) have teenagers who are independent, socially responsible, and confident. According to this research, the ideal family is one in which the message children receive from parents is: "We love you, but you must do as we say."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure there are outliers as in any case attempting to explain the multiple facets of human existence, yet - this seems a plausible base to work from. What do you think?

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited September 06, 2000).]
Lori
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Lori »

So now beating is not PC - so what to do? DRUG THEM!

This article really upset me... as you mention Allen - big brother steps in and all kinds of things start happening. In the following article is a very frightening court decision that removed the parent's rights to decide whether or not to continue Ritalin treatments for their child - who has been on it for three years with more adverse effects. Scary because the state has effectively decided that the right to medicate our children with behavior modifying drugs is in the hands of the state - NOT the parents!

Even worse - people reading this kind of reaction - will hesitate to take their children to doctors now for fear that the doctor will embark them upon a method of treatment they have no sayso on!

The implications are staggering and terrifying.

Read at least the first couple paragraphs - the end of the article fairly points out an opposing view of sorts - but to have this kind of thing federally controlled... Image
http://www.boston.com/news/daily/09/ritalin.htm
Allen M.

A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Allen M. »

Well, Lori, kids are already being drugged in schools by the system because they are "hyperactive."

As far as I am concerned, about the research results, they are 50% bullsh!t and 50% luck.

It is so scary that you are no longer in control of your children. Why bother having them if you can't bring them up to your own specifications, rather than the states?

Something twists a kid's brain when they are young to cause them to fly off the handle and stay that way.

I'm not into beating, but a good crack across the ass or a cuff behind the ear when they are young wakes them up most of the time.

Now that my two babies are 4 inches taller than I, the little control I have remaining is through withholding the usual large-scale donations (dad, I need 20 bux for a coke), uttering statements like "Guess who's paying for next semester's college tuition if you keep it up," and keeping the spare car keys locked up and under my control. Without those few remaining weapons, all is lost.
Lori
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Lori »

Ha! JD - you would not believe the garbage they still make these kids wade through - pretend to understand - not think about and spew forth the same interpretation some senile professor pounded into their own heads many years ago...

Sigh. At least Crane is not the worst of it. I have supplemented the reading list for years - and thankfully have a kid who devours books almost as quickly as she can a slice of pizza...

Now - as for the drugging thing - when I shifted my teaching gears into elementary school - I was apalled to see how serious this drugging thing is. The office practically employs someone full time to dispense medication - and I'm not talking asthma medicine or other such things - I'm talking behavior modification drugs! Parents are pressed into taking their kids to get these drugs by teachers or administrators at their wits end with bureaucracy, overcrowded classrooms, requirements to teach to a test, knives and guns in school, real threats of violence, I could go on but it is really much different reading about it in the papers and then being in the trenches. I was lucky enough to be in a charter school where we had smaller classes and some leeway - parents who didn't like drugging their kids I supported them 100% as they tried other methods of diet, counseling, whatever and looked for ways to help the transition in the classroom.

It broke my heart to see bright - very active, alert and challenging kids have their eyes gloss over and have headaches and pass out asleep on their desks once the drugs were begun at someone's insistence...
Gilbert MacIntyre
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Gilbert MacIntyre »

When my children were between about two and five they received the odd slap on the rear. Nothing too hard but enough that they knew there was a chance it could happen.

Since then we talk, I simply point out what they are doing wrong explain why it isn't acceptable and ask if they can see my reasoning and please comply. Sometime my reasoning is that I'm really very cranky and one wouldn't want to push a point too far right now. They know that if I get rattled enough to blurt out a grounding...it sticks. I don't go back on my word, my kids know that for good situations, and bad(groundings).

I have a 28 year old son, who is married and is a fine young man. I have explained to him over the years that if I had the inclination, he could have been hit alot, but he wasn't. So I tell him remember that when you get p*ssed at one of your family, when the time comes.

My girls are 13 and 11, I tell them, you haven't been hit at home so don't let anyone hit you out in the world. It's wrong and it never happens once, it will occur again if you stay with the same person. Even if this were incorrect it is still unacceptable once.
From what I see most times kids are getting whacked it's because the adult doing the whacking can't organize time correctly. Some kids need more time, some situations need more time. There is nothing quite as unsettling as a sad/hurt/crying child.

One last thing, my father didn't believe this. I was smacked all the time. Back of a hand, belt, boot anything handy. Then one day when I was about 18 and I was belted across the head, I stood up and told my father that was his last free shot. That hurt my father, I don't ever want to feel that shame.
Gilbert.
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by gmattson »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
"Quackery is quackery whether is it a guy with beads and needles or a guy in a white coat with a stethescope he keeps in the freezer."
Now if we could only make the "Quacks" wear a dunce hat all the time so we could easily identify them..

Great post J.D. Medication is society's way of hammering down (without attention or action) any child that might be be different.

Things are only going to get worse. Parents and society want "perfect" children. Science has created a way to deal with too few teachers and parents who don't have time.

Scientist predict we will soon be able to select our children by menu. . . Who, of course, will need to be programmed with a steady diet of 22nd century drugs to combat the eternal boredom. . .

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GEM
Allen M.

A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Allen M. »

Gilbert,

Somewhere earlier I wrote on these forums that I was the subject of much severe physical abuse by my dad when I was a youngster, and I also stood up to him and pretty much said the same thing as you did when I was 14, so I know where you are coming from.

Thoughts on kids:

My thoughts of physical punishment with youngsters is that you must never get angry with them during this event, as well as take utmost care not to hurt them. Beating a kid is senseless, however a good well-place crack once in a while can wake them up right up without them becoming fearful of you, bringing them in line without further ado, and puts some smarts in them as well as smarts a little too.

Look, sometimes no matter what you do, it just doesn't cut it or sometimes they are simply golden, or anything else in between. After over 30 plus years of raising my own kids, I'm tired of it. You just be as best parent you know how to be and leave the rest to prayer, and hope they don't need to be bailed out of jail or come home knocked up before they leave the nest. If they learn by our example, fine. If not, fine.

I like the idea of selecting children by menu, George. When the waitress asks for my order, I'll say "Just a big glass of ice water, please."


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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited September 11, 2000).]
Gilbert MacIntyre
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A Woman, a Dog, and a Walnut Tree...

Post by Gilbert MacIntyre »

Just wanted to add a couple of things. When I read my post I got the feelimg that some may read it and get the idea I felt I came from an abusive home. Well I guess I did, but it wasn't "like that". That's just the way it was then, I raised hell and my parents lowered the boom. My folks were the best, but it was a different time, I'm sure they thought they were doing the right thing.

[QUOTE]My thoughts of physical punishment with youngsters is that you must never get angry with them during this event, as well as take utmost care not to hurt them.[QUOTE/]

This reminds me off a bit Bill Cosby used to do. The Dad would walk in "hey little Johnny how's your day"..."Great dad, and yours'"..."couldn't have been better son, it's just a joy to be alive"...SMACK!!!...CRACK!!!...BOOT!!!..."Yep great day, oh well talk to you later son, love ya'"

Never hit in anger. Image.
Gilbert.
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