I recently watched a show on television about young female vocal artist and groups and how they are encouraged by their managers to be sexy. The program went on to discuss how these young teenage stars are wearing less and less clothing and making questionable poses for the camera. It went on to add that a male artist can wear whatever and even be over wieght and his records still will sale.
This made me think of female martial artist, kickboxers, and boxers. It also made me think of the recent black belt magazine where Bridgett Riley was posing in a bikini top.
So here is my question, do you think female martial artist and boxers(the ones that are more famous in their field) are being promoted as sex symbols and not taken as seriously as the male counterpart?
Kristy
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
Moderator: Available
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
Kristy-san,
Thanks for the great topic. My own answer to your question is a heartfelt "Hell yes!" When I first started pursuing martial arts study, I noticed immediately the dearth of female martial artists in upper ranks both in my own style and in others. The few roles in the B-grade (or C, or D or whatever) movies were so SORRY and insulting to women in general I quickly became disgusted. Once in a while in recent years we've seen some decent female roles as counterparts to the likes of Jackie Chan or Sean Connery, but women are still relegated to secondary roles.
Even female martial artists of note have played in the most hideous of plots - (ever seen Lady Dragon? UGH!) Why is it that when a female martial artist IS given a lead role she still has to wear stilettos, short leather skirts and even get raped? Disgusting!
There are some female boxers making names for themselves these days with their skill and strength - good - yet look at how they are dressed, how they are promoted. Mike Tyson and other champion male fighters are not exactly posed in g-strings for their publicity shots.
As much as we would like to plead lack of gender prejudice and justice and equal opportunity in the fighting arts - fact remains - as we have often found on this forum - that men and women are defined not only by our gender, but by the resulting social standards imposed upon us even unwittingly as we participate in civilization. Certainly, women are better equipped to handle certain aspects of life, as are men, and we can learn to celebrate these varying strengths - yet we do a disservice to both genders by continuing to subscribe to stereotypes and sexism.
Peace,
Lori
Thanks for the great topic. My own answer to your question is a heartfelt "Hell yes!" When I first started pursuing martial arts study, I noticed immediately the dearth of female martial artists in upper ranks both in my own style and in others. The few roles in the B-grade (or C, or D or whatever) movies were so SORRY and insulting to women in general I quickly became disgusted. Once in a while in recent years we've seen some decent female roles as counterparts to the likes of Jackie Chan or Sean Connery, but women are still relegated to secondary roles.
Even female martial artists of note have played in the most hideous of plots - (ever seen Lady Dragon? UGH!) Why is it that when a female martial artist IS given a lead role she still has to wear stilettos, short leather skirts and even get raped? Disgusting!
There are some female boxers making names for themselves these days with their skill and strength - good - yet look at how they are dressed, how they are promoted. Mike Tyson and other champion male fighters are not exactly posed in g-strings for their publicity shots.
As much as we would like to plead lack of gender prejudice and justice and equal opportunity in the fighting arts - fact remains - as we have often found on this forum - that men and women are defined not only by our gender, but by the resulting social standards imposed upon us even unwittingly as we participate in civilization. Certainly, women are better equipped to handle certain aspects of life, as are men, and we can learn to celebrate these varying strengths - yet we do a disservice to both genders by continuing to subscribe to stereotypes and sexism.
Peace,
Lori
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
It is really simple. Sex appeal sells everywhere, and sports are no exception. And these female stars are in the selling business, whether we like it or not !
Here is what Kristen Leigh Porter , sports editor, writes:
The athletes themselves are well aware that sex appeal can translate to big bucks in endorsement deals, and some are even using it to sell America on their respective sports. High jumper Amy Acuff recently decided to put together a pseudo-pinup calendar of track and field stars. Acuff brought in 11 of the sports' top females to pose either nude or in body paint for the creation, which was shot in a studio in Hollywood. She was quoted in SI for Women as saying that something unique had to be done to grab the public's attention so they could see what great athletes the women are.
Genetically-blessed athletes such as Kournikova routinely receive more attention for their assets than their accomplishments. For a player that isn't ranked in the top ten and has never won a major event, Kournikova's pub exceeds that of, say, Wimbledon champ Lindsay Davenport, the No. 2 player in the world!
Not that the phenomenon is limited to the sport of tennis. Millions of fans are waiting for Derek Jeter to bare it and share it, while sporting Yankees baby tees with his name emblazoned across the back. Soccer star Brandi Chastain had her own nude layout in Gear magazine long before she made the sports bra a national hero at the World Cup
Sports are a celebration of the human body and its achievements, but the media itself is responsible for creating an environment where sex sells. Without advertising, no newspaper or television station could survive so the claim holds that they are only catering to what the public wants and what will sell issues or airtime. Sport is a reflection of society, after all. Schools around the country even teach the importance of sex to the world of athletics. The textbook Sport Marketing even has its own category for the topic and defines its impact as this: "Sport has often had sexual connotations (e.g., women watching men in shorts show their physical prowess, and men watching women in leotards ice skate and perform gymnastics). (Source: Sport Marketing / Bernard J. Mullin, Stephen Hardy, William A. Sutton, copyright 1993, published by Human Kinetics Publishers, Champaign, IL)
{snip}
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Van Canna
Here is what Kristen Leigh Porter , sports editor, writes:
The athletes themselves are well aware that sex appeal can translate to big bucks in endorsement deals, and some are even using it to sell America on their respective sports. High jumper Amy Acuff recently decided to put together a pseudo-pinup calendar of track and field stars. Acuff brought in 11 of the sports' top females to pose either nude or in body paint for the creation, which was shot in a studio in Hollywood. She was quoted in SI for Women as saying that something unique had to be done to grab the public's attention so they could see what great athletes the women are.
Genetically-blessed athletes such as Kournikova routinely receive more attention for their assets than their accomplishments. For a player that isn't ranked in the top ten and has never won a major event, Kournikova's pub exceeds that of, say, Wimbledon champ Lindsay Davenport, the No. 2 player in the world!
Not that the phenomenon is limited to the sport of tennis. Millions of fans are waiting for Derek Jeter to bare it and share it, while sporting Yankees baby tees with his name emblazoned across the back. Soccer star Brandi Chastain had her own nude layout in Gear magazine long before she made the sports bra a national hero at the World Cup
Sports are a celebration of the human body and its achievements, but the media itself is responsible for creating an environment where sex sells. Without advertising, no newspaper or television station could survive so the claim holds that they are only catering to what the public wants and what will sell issues or airtime. Sport is a reflection of society, after all. Schools around the country even teach the importance of sex to the world of athletics. The textbook Sport Marketing even has its own category for the topic and defines its impact as this: "Sport has often had sexual connotations (e.g., women watching men in shorts show their physical prowess, and men watching women in leotards ice skate and perform gymnastics). (Source: Sport Marketing / Bernard J. Mullin, Stephen Hardy, William A. Sutton, copyright 1993, published by Human Kinetics Publishers, Champaign, IL)
{snip}
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Van Canna
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
There are some female boxers making names for themselves these days with their skill and strength - good - yet look at how they are dressed, how they are promoted. Mike Tyson and other champion male fighters are not exactly posed in g-strings for their publicity shots.
Interesting thread. Canna Sensei's post is right on target - as usual.
This is a double-edged sword that cuts both ways, although I admit that women seem to get more pressure to join in this "sensual/sexual" promotion than do men. However, be careful not to over-generalize. Although Tyson isn't promoted like this, Oscar De La Hoya most certainly is! And a majority of tickets to his fights are purchased by women.
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D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
Interesting thread. Canna Sensei's post is right on target - as usual.
This is a double-edged sword that cuts both ways, although I admit that women seem to get more pressure to join in this "sensual/sexual" promotion than do men. However, be careful not to over-generalize. Although Tyson isn't promoted like this, Oscar De La Hoya most certainly is! And a majority of tickets to his fights are purchased by women.
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D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
I was gonna post but Van beat me to it!
Just one thing to emphasize- performers are there to get money from spectators. Many more spectators can differentiate bra-size than can tell a good technique from a bad one. If more people paid for good technique, that would be shown.
How many male MA stars stayed stars when they started to go bald?
Rory
Just one thing to emphasize- performers are there to get money from spectators. Many more spectators can differentiate bra-size than can tell a good technique from a bad one. If more people paid for good technique, that would be shown.
How many male MA stars stayed stars when they started to go bald?
Rory
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Jake Steinmann
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- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
Sadly, many boxing promoters seem to view Women's boxing as an opportunity to promote 'chick fights', or some other testoterone based nonsense, instead of acknowledging that some of these women are actually extremely competant boxers.
I have yet to see Riley fight, but from some interviews I've read with her, I like her attitude. Yet she herself says that there are some female boxers out there who are making their fame because they look good, not because they have any boxing skill at all.
Sadly, there are a lot of female martial artists who I think get remembered or promoted based on their looks. I remember seeing some ads for June Castro's material a few years ago in a black belt mag. I have idea if she's any good, but the fact that along with her video's she was selling the "Feminine Fury" picture series made it real hard for me to take her seriously.
Martial artists and boxers should be promoted based on their skill and expertise, not their looks. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.
Enough of my ramblings...
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
I have yet to see Riley fight, but from some interviews I've read with her, I like her attitude. Yet she herself says that there are some female boxers out there who are making their fame because they look good, not because they have any boxing skill at all.
Sadly, there are a lot of female martial artists who I think get remembered or promoted based on their looks. I remember seeing some ads for June Castro's material a few years ago in a black belt mag. I have idea if she's any good, but the fact that along with her video's she was selling the "Feminine Fury" picture series made it real hard for me to take her seriously.
Martial artists and boxers should be promoted based on their skill and expertise, not their looks. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.
Enough of my ramblings...
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
Billy Blanks.
Yul Brinner.
Sean Connery.
The actors who respectively have played Captains Picard and Sisco (who last names escape me at present before my second cup of coffee).
But I do agree with the general thesis. I can't say how much is cultural and how much is hardwired into the male/female psyches, but my humble opinion is that there is a hardwired component - a strong hardwired component - in the visual appreciation of/obsession about the human female by the human male.
Now if only I can convince my wife of this....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited June 26, 2000).]
Yul Brinner.
Sean Connery.
The actors who respectively have played Captains Picard and Sisco (who last names escape me at present before my second cup of coffee).
But I do agree with the general thesis. I can't say how much is cultural and how much is hardwired into the male/female psyches, but my humble opinion is that there is a hardwired component - a strong hardwired component - in the visual appreciation of/obsession about the human female by the human male.
Now if only I can convince my wife of this....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited June 26, 2000).]
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
>>So here is my question, do you think female martial artist and boxers(the ones that are more famous in their field) are being promoted as sex symbols and not taken as seriously as the male counterpart? <<
I think I agree with JD's tongue in cheek assessment...
I think the martial arts community appreciate the skills/talent behind the skin.
Those who who are into skin couldn't care less about the talent/skills. They can simply stand lightly clad and still be appreciated.
Alot of the old Jackie Chan movies -- for the Asian market -- have him running around a number of scenes topless or less. Bruce Lee didn't make it big in Marlow or the Green Hornet despite being the baddest on the screen -- he was always fully clothed. In Green Hornet, he was always dressed as the loyal servant. When Lee made to the Asian Market, His top invariably came off to show his physique. In Enter the Dragon, his physique was exposed to the world. A Star was born, and died shortly afterwards.
Alot of martial artists appreciated seeing Lee move, even though a fantasy. More folks simply appreciated seeing his near naked body move. PERIOD.
As for me. Michelle Yeoh is fairly *attractive*. I don't think she bares much in the films I've seen. The strong, self assured personna works for me. Of course, being physically adept (she's an ex ballerina) and graceful don't hurt. But, now I straying into my own fan.........
Oh yeah, as a bald guy myself, Yul Brynner definitely works for me. Steven Seagal is definitely a better martial artist. But, ole Yul had more "X" factor than Steven will ever get in this lifetime.
Ducking and heading out of town.
david
I think I agree with JD's tongue in cheek assessment...
I think the martial arts community appreciate the skills/talent behind the skin.
Those who who are into skin couldn't care less about the talent/skills. They can simply stand lightly clad and still be appreciated.
Alot of the old Jackie Chan movies -- for the Asian market -- have him running around a number of scenes topless or less. Bruce Lee didn't make it big in Marlow or the Green Hornet despite being the baddest on the screen -- he was always fully clothed. In Green Hornet, he was always dressed as the loyal servant. When Lee made to the Asian Market, His top invariably came off to show his physique. In Enter the Dragon, his physique was exposed to the world. A Star was born, and died shortly afterwards.
Alot of martial artists appreciated seeing Lee move, even though a fantasy. More folks simply appreciated seeing his near naked body move. PERIOD.
As for me. Michelle Yeoh is fairly *attractive*. I don't think she bares much in the films I've seen. The strong, self assured personna works for me. Of course, being physically adept (she's an ex ballerina) and graceful don't hurt. But, now I straying into my own fan.........
Oh yeah, as a bald guy myself, Yul Brynner definitely works for me. Steven Seagal is definitely a better martial artist. But, ole Yul had more "X" factor than Steven will ever get in this lifetime.
Ducking and heading out of town.
david
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doughboy_28105
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Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
That black belt magazine article made the feminist in me explode and i don't know who i was more mad at, Reily or BBM. An extreamly talented heavy hitter martial artist posing in a center fold manor. did she or someone else feel the need to stress whatever her accomplishments might be, she still has to get attention the old fashion way.
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Another Lori
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Another Lori
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
Just an FYI... The use of -san is the same as saying Mr. or Ms. It is a sign of respect... the term -sempai is for someone who is senior, but not necessarily older... senior in an endeavour. The term -kohai is the opposite of -sempai and is for the person in the junior position. The sempai/kohai relationship is extremely complicated and can't be understood from watching a Sean Connery movie. The term -sensei is generally used as teacher, it is actually very similar to -sempai, but with a higher respect level.
Having pointed that out, the term -chan is generally used to refer to someone beneath you... most commonly a child. When last in Japan, I had a man refer to me as -chan and his bluff was called when I issued forth a challenge. (It was the thing to do "to save face") After some verbal gymnastics, he took the kohai position and ended up leaving the conference entirely to "save face" for his error... He didn't realize that I was listening to him in japanese and felt overly smug with his condescending attitude because he thought that slight would get lost in translation. It would have... except I replied to him in japanese using an even lower level of respect in return.
Just an FYI about a language that has no less than 5 respect/familiarity levels... (some say over 7 levels... it depends on what is considered a derivative form.)
I'm no expert in nihongo, having not spoken or read it in ~10+ years, but the last time I did anything in nihongo, it was to read The Hunt for Red October in that language...
The term -sensei is generally used as teacher, it is actually very similar to -sempai, but with a higher respect level.Having pointed that out, the term -chan is generally used to refer to someone beneath you... most commonly a child. When last in Japan, I had a man refer to me as -chan and his bluff was called when I issued forth a challenge. (It was the thing to do "to save face") After some verbal gymnastics, he took the kohai position and ended up leaving the conference entirely to "save face" for his error... He didn't realize that I was listening to him in japanese and felt overly smug with his condescending attitude because he thought that slight would get lost in translation. It would have... except I replied to him in japanese using an even lower level of respect in return.
Just an FYI about a language that has no less than 5 respect/familiarity levels... (some say over 7 levels... it depends on what is considered a derivative form.)
I'm no expert in nihongo, having not spoken or read it in ~10+ years, but the last time I did anything in nihongo, it was to read The Hunt for Red October in that language...
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RickLiebespach
- Posts: 157
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- Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
... and the highwaywoman cometh!
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 01, 2000).]
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
You know Panther - we've been trying to straighten the "good" doctor X out on the "chan" thing for a while - numerous people have pointed out that the suffix is diminutive - used primarily for children and sweethearts - of which I am NEITHER (of JD's anyway). That type of disrespect is not tolerated on this forum - and - if his usage was any more disrespectful than it is annoying - and if we all didn't give the ole doc' a bit of leeway here and there - he'd take his toys and go home and things would get really boring around here.
I should perhaps mention however that once healed from my injury I am going to have to put him in an exceedingly painful arm/necklock (learned by an un-named S-S that JD fears considerably) until he starts referring to me by my PROPER name of Lori-sama!
I should perhaps mention however that once healed from my injury I am going to have to put him in an exceedingly painful arm/necklock (learned by an un-named S-S that JD fears considerably) until he starts referring to me by my PROPER name of Lori-sama!
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RickLiebespach
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Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
Lori-sama,
Sorry to offend with my curiousity.
Rick Liebespach
BTW - What's "sama" mean?
Sorry to offend with my curiousity.
Rick Liebespach
BTW - What's "sama" mean?
Women, Martial Arts and Sex Symbols
Geez, I missed all that... Pretty good follow-up from the doctah... but, -san is used when addressing an equal, -sama is used when addressing a (far greater) superior. In modern language, -sama is basically not used. (there are exceptions in the military specifically) I was once addressed as -kun when attending a conference in Tokyo. The professor that used that form of address towards me had a specific position that all japanese were superior, all americans were inferior... After I got through ripping him a new one in his own language, the session ended... He was slated to be the "chair-person" for our sessions for the next two days. Unfortunately, he was (somehow ) disgraced and was replaced for the afternoon session that day and the next two days.
I have a video at home of the telecast on NHK where I took the head of Matsu-shi-ta Electric to task for claiming that Americans were inferior, lazy, buffoons who deserved to be economically destroyed by the superior Japanese intellect and values. I merely pointed out all of the inconsistencies in his argument and finished by asking one of those questions that would make him look like a racist buffoon no matter how he answered it... he dutifully oblidged by denial, obfuscation, changing the subject and avoiding any real answer to the question! I didn't realize it at the time, but I guess I was quite the buzz in parts of Japan for the next few months! 
Although that did explain why many folks seemed to "know" me when I was travelling... 
(edited to help the tools stop misinterpretting the common Nihongo "shi" coupled with "ta-te-ti-tu-to" from being ****ed out)
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited September 11, 2000).]
) disgraced and was replaced for the afternoon session that day and the next two days. I have a video at home of the telecast on NHK where I took the head of Matsu-shi-ta Electric to task for claiming that Americans were inferior, lazy, buffoons who deserved to be economically destroyed by the superior Japanese intellect and values. I merely pointed out all of the inconsistencies in his argument and finished by asking one of those questions that would make him look like a racist buffoon no matter how he answered it... he dutifully oblidged by denial, obfuscation, changing the subject and avoiding any real answer to the question!
I didn't realize it at the time, but I guess I was quite the buzz in parts of Japan for the next few months! Although that did explain why many folks seemed to "know" me when I was travelling... (edited to help the tools stop misinterpretting the common Nihongo "shi" coupled with "ta-te-ti-tu-to" from being ****ed out)
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited September 11, 2000).]
