Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

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Jackie Olsen
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Jackie Olsen »

Just to reinforce several people's position of doing anything just to survive ... my girlfriend was approached by a would-be attacker on a deserted stretch of beach near sunset. She quickly feigned an epileptic fit, complete with drooling and loss of body functions -- he ran the other way.

When I asked her how she ever thought of this, she said she really didn't know.
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Ian
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Ian »

Tuning back in after a couple days at the hospital. To address an earlier question, I think my first assertions were relatively simple and commonsense, and a post a while ago was dismissive in that some skepticism without explanation is given re: my post, and a little insulting in that I'm accused of having insufficient empathy for rape victims, without cause. No matter, I've had worse.

So... 1)Rapists may have no respect for their victim's lives, but why does that mean rapists want to die themselves? If they respond to an AIDS threat by saying they don't care, they have it too, isn't that better than not knowing? You may choose to fight harder, to seek medical care faster (perhaps start on antiretrovirals ASAP). Maybe ignorance is not bliss. Condoms, I doubt, will rarely if ever produce acquital in a case like I reported--in that one a woman was attacked in her house by a stranger. He tried to argue he broke in her house and convinced her to have sex with him. Whatever. And I for one would much rather be raped with than without to answer question #8.

2) Risk of feces during rape... perhaps not ideal, but the bacteria are pretty much all over the area already. It may be true there are better things to do or much easier things to do. Though, I'd rather reduce my risk of STD than worry about the health consequences. But then, I'm a guy. Women will make their own decisions. And feces disgusting rapists?....

3)...I think that's not as hard as one might think--given that most rapists are more normal than we'd prefer to think. Now I never said that rape was good or normal, just that the cariacature of the rapist as some incredible irrational sadist animal makes us forget the basic truth that women who know men are at risk no matter how normal those men appear. As far as rational assailants, let me cite some recent from Charlottesville: unreported date rapes, not reported because the attacker had managed to produce enough shame or doubt of prosecutional success; an attacker who struck in dimly lit areas dragging solo runners away from public areas; a man who broke into single dorm rooms when the dorms were mostly empty. This all demonstrates planning and thought, in an effort to avoid being caught. Being nasty does not ALWAYS make you stupid or thoughtless.

4) On being capable, say of prostitution, the point is not anatomy. The point is would many women do that under the right circumstances. The answer is, many women (or men) would turn to previously unimaginable means to acquire food and shelter when they have no other options. It doesn't mean they sit around at work wanting to be prostitutes. Maybe one does not feel violent. But, raised differently, stressed by some awful asault against self or loved one, might not many of us break and commit a terrible act of revenge? Not certain, but possible.

Lastly, does anyone besides me think that approaching rape as if everyone who suffers it is basically destroyed for life and we should be shocked if they "recover" is actually bad for victims and worsens anxiety for those not victimized?
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Panther
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Panther »

Ian-san,

welcome back... hope everything is OK re: the hospital visit...

The things discussed here shouldn't be (and I don't think are meant to be) personal... just discussions, opinions, experiences, revelations, etc... I certainly hope that differences in opinions based on different experiences/backgrounds aren't taken (or meant) as personal attacks... For me that isn't the purpose or the point.

Ian makes some valid points... I understand them. On a few of them, here are some alternate thoughts...

Many wolves have become experts at dressing and acting like sheep... that makes them no less a wolf. Many monsters have become experts at dressing and acting human... that makes them no less a monster. (Ted Bundy...) IOW, I would rephrase the statement to say that most rapists appear more normal than we'd prefer to think... Leaving the statement as is causes me problems, as I do not and never will believe that rape in any way, shape or form is "normal"! Along those same thoughts, "being nasty" definitely doesn't make the rapist "stupid"... and it doesn't make the rapist "thoughtless" about himself. But it does prove that the rapist is "thoughtless" about his victim(s)! Otherwise, he wouldn't be attacking...

I understand your point about the ability of (some) women to prostitute themselves for survival, but that misses the original intent of my point in making the comparison... To begin with, rapists don't commit rape for "survival"... that comparison is apples to oranges. The comparison was in response to the survey of colleged aged men (which I find disheartening at best and beyond disgusting at worst...) and my comparison that having the "equipment" to commit an act does not equate to a "desire" to commit an act. To take those thoughts and make the comparison of seeking or a desire for revenge after an assault has been committed is a giant leap that misconstrues the fundamental facts... such as the fact that there is a huge difference between someone committing a crime against an innocent victim and the desire or even the act of seeking vengence against an attacker who has made the first move... Yes, many would have that desire... and some would at least attempt to act on that desire. Even though I think that is wrong, I give those people much more latitude that the societally-challenged animal who preys upon innocent victims!

The only purpose of self-defense is to stop the threat. Once the threat is gone, there is no more need for self-defense... and any further action becomes the beginning of a separate assault. Not only is that the moral truth, but it is also the way you will be judged in a court of law. In the aftermath of an assault, does one think about teaching the perp what the word "vendetta" really means? Certainly those thought occur... But as has been pointed out previously in this thread, there is a great deal of difference between thoughts and actions.

As for rape victims recovering... Even though they call themselves rape survivors, none that I've ever met feel they've "recovered".

"learned to cope"... "moved on"... "gone ahead with their life"... "survived"... but never heard a single woman say "recovered"... never. Image Just as I will always carry the physical scars on my arms, hands and head... they will always carry the mental scars. Some things you just don't "recover" from, you only learn to live with it... Do not equate that to "destroyed for life"! No one ever said that... The fact is that spreading the false promise of "recovery" not only hurts women who haven't been victimized, it greatly hurts women who have been victimized by causing them to wonder why they haven't "recovered"... That's why they chose to be called "survivors"...
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Ian »

Thanks, the hospital visit went well. I was just there because I'm a medical student. Image

I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between revenge and rape. To make a more direct comment on the specific situation, can normal men have rape as part of the spectrum of their fantasies, try this:

Let's say you were raised in an abusive family and made to feel inferior, stupid and worthless. Scarred by this you become an anxious person whose success with women is minimal. Or say a few really hurt you and make you feel vulnerable, even more than before. You're taught sexist sterotypes by those who raise you and those you hang out with who brag about their aggressive exploits with women when drunk etc. It is quite certain that if all men we thought highly of or considered normal had been exposed to this kind of influence, more would be involved in sexual aggression of some kind, particularly if judgment were impaired by drugs, wounded pride, or being dumped or rejected somehow. I don't like it, its not normal, its wrong, but many people who live upstanding lives have a kernal of aggression (perhaps not even visible) that might have resulted in their appearing on TV in a police sketch if they'd had dramatically different life experiences. I don't think people who come from societies of cities with higher crime rates or rape rates than others are fundamentally different, just that certain tendencies are brought out in certain situations. That's what i meant.

On recovering: This does not mean they have completely forgotten or made total peace with assault. You continue to bear scars, yet you have recovered. I had appendicitis, I have a scar, but I'm recovered. Completely. I've met someone who had two arms ripped off at the shoulder in a farming accident; he considers himself whole and recovered and complete, even though his recovery, perhaps like that of the rape victim, will leave some reminders. Think of female college graduates. Are less than 75% functional and happy? I would guess more than that. And if we are to believe 25% were raped (I've seen that figure thrown around a lot and often the actual source is anyone raped, touched, or the victim of an exposure, a little broader than what we want to discuss, tho i recognize we'll never get a perfect number) and that they don't recover, we have to find 1 in 4 of them permanently significantly impaired by their experience. Can this be?

This isn't just semantics for me... for people who suffer severe back pain, there used to be a tendency to give pain meds, put them to bed for a week and tell them they have it really bad, and many went on to permanent incapacity. Rapid mobilization, exercise, avoidance of narcotics and encouragement to put the pain in perspective helps prevent this. And makes them happier. There was an employee on a(Oprah's?) talk show who had spent $100K+ on back pain and used a scooter who after speaking to an MD who simply encouraged her to view her pain in a different light was able to walk easily again. Or how about this: telling women before labor that their pain will be severe or repeatedly having them rate it makes it worse.

I'm 100% (ALL FOR) supportive empathetic care of victims of whatever (they need and deserve it), but encouragment to recover and emphasis on strengths and EXPECTATION of recovery might give them back much of what the attacker took. IMHO.
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Panther
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Panther »

Ian-san,

Interesting, informative and educational points...

After reading your post, I actually do think this has quite a bit to do with semantics.
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Valkenar »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor X:
I find the studies that claim every man fantasizes raping a woman about as reliable as ones that state that every woman has rape fantasies.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I doubt there are any studies that have the hubris to imply specify such a word as "every", but I could be wrong. If so, they're full of it, since there's basically nothing that really applies to absolutely everyone.
But if you're talking about studies that show a "suprisingly large percent" or maybe even a "majority" I don't think they're neccesarily so easily dismissed. Especially given that 1% would probably be almost universally a "suprisingly large percent" of women that have ever had a rape fantasy (a term we haven't defined quite carefully enough perhaps).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I am afraid I have not met the man who fantasizes violating a woman just as I have not met the woman who fantasizes being violated.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You may have, and not know it... how many people, man or woman, would admit? I personally do know a woman who has fantasized about being raped. For obvious reasons, I'm not going to extrapolate on this (and yes, I got her permission before even saying this vague generality), except to say that she is not reliving a past experience.



<a href="http://www.sexed.org/arch/arch10.htm">h ... h10.htm</a>(note that this website contains frank discussion (not description) of sex in the context of censorship) says the following, at the bottom:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
...fantasy is not the same as desire. Sources as diverse as Robin Morgan and Bernie Zilbergeld remind us that all fantasy, even a rape fantasy, can be an act of power because we direct the scene, we create ourselves as an object of desire, and we control the access others have to us.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I don't say these things to try and convince people that rape fantasies are "normal" (another word that is notoriously difficult to define adequately) and beyond a doubt I believe that rape itself is a sick perversion, but I do agree with Ian that rapists are not two-dimensional people who are beyond all humanity and rationality. And I personally think that demonizing rapists in the context of talking about ways to fight them is unnecesarrily restrictive. Demonizing them in other contexts, however, may be perfectly legitimate.

Back to the main topic of this thread:

As most everybody seems to agree, and is rehashed again and again in most of the forums here, it's not possible to make a formula for how to get out of a conflict. All you can do is come up with ideas that might work. In that light, it seems that soiling oneself could be an effective technique in some cases. Sure, it can't be usefull in all, and the question I suppose is whether the chances of it working outweighs whatever risk there is that it might make the situation worse. I certainly can't claim to know whether that's true or not. But it seems to me that the chances are that it will be useful a sufficient amount of the time, to recomend it.


One thing that I thought was curious is that some of the way people were discussing it sounded as if they only get to do one thing. Yes, there's an extent to which a time critical moment might make another technique more opprotune, but again it comes back to the fact that you can't create a general formula. But there's no reason that a variety of techniques might be employed. If the rapist isn't scared of the threat of disease, then soiling yourself is still an option. And if that fails, then try something else. If we're using the mindset of "survive at all costs" then that means not giving up once a couple of ideas have failed.



For what it's worth, that's my opinion.
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LenTesta
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by LenTesta »

I finally read something everyone else has chosen to ignore:
Case in point: many years ago a group of us was in the college dorms drinking...
I can not quote the actual statistics but this is leading cause of date rape.

Drugs, (yes alcohol is the worst drug...IMO)
make an otherwise normal person do something he would only dream about. Can women defend against this type of rape. Absolutely if they are not intoxicated or under the influence of another drug and they are trained to do so. Will some of the other suggestions for deterring the rape work, IE defecation and vomiting...maybe. Can she try to rationalize with someone under the influence? I highly doubt it. Can she use VSD or force to eliminate the threat? Yes again if she is trained to do so. If the VSD fails (drunken fools who think with their groins will not ever let someone talk their way out of it), she must resort to martial defense if the threat does not subside. Will a drunken attacker put on a condom for the rape; sure, he will ultimately get what he wants. But is that what the woman wants, to be sure that she does not get a STD or pregnant?

Can we say most rapes are date rapes? Again, I have not the statistics to quote but I have heard that date rape is more likely to occur than rape by chance encounter.

A serial killer/rapist will kill or rape no matter what the victim is willing to say or do. They will knock her out, clean her up, and rape her whether she is breathing or not!
Can you rationalize with this individual? No way. His mindset is based on years of either abuse, revenge, or dementia. He has already played out in his mind how the rape will occur. If you resist (or submit) you may be a willing actor in his movie. You may be following the script as he has written it.

The other very disturbing fact about rape; is incest rape and molestation. I know about this first hand (not me), and I cannot mention who because she does not want anyone to know. She says she has "put it behind her" which still makes me :MAD: when I think about it although it happened 26 years ago. This uncaring person was holding a threat over her head and used the threat to have his way with her. She was only 15 and knew nothing about VSD or could perform any type of physical defense. The shame of the acts, the shame of bringing out to the public the fact that a family member was raping her was too much to think about. She feared the consequences of what he had told her he would say about what he had held over her head, more than she was disgusted by the acts themselves. BTW this person acted in this manner always while under the influence of marijuana and alcohol.

When faced with a rape situation as in any confrontation you must know who and what type of rapist you are dealing with so you can plan how to prevent or diffuse it.

Scenario training will be the best way for women to learn how to recognize, avoid and diffuse.


------------------
Len Testa
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