Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

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Lori
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Lori »

Just remembered something I heard during some "expert" discussion about women and rape.

The advice, along with trying to defecate or urinate on herself or trying to throw up, was that she carry a condom with her at all times and if an attack was inevitable, ask the rapist to use it so she reduced her risk of getting a deadly STD.

Two issues for discussion here:

What about the elimination technique? Think it would work as a deterrant?

And how exactly would a woman phrase that request that the attacker use a condom?

Well, I certainly have my opinions! But I'll wait for some contributions hopefully. As JT writes in his signature: all enlightenment gratefully accepted!
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Panther
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Panther »

I must interject how bad the condom advise is!

A few years ago, a woman was raped... pressed charges, took it to court where...

He was released! Because the defense attorney successfully convinced the jury that her asking him to use a condom meant that it was consentual!

Soooo, if anyone wants to protect against STDs, then by all means try to use a condom... but the single case where it was brought up it was deemed to show the woman's consent! Image
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

well, how about the expression " scared sh!tless" ? Really think a woman could muster up those bodily functions at that moment?

BTW, in a rape case I investigated in The Marlboro street area, the rape victim offered condoms to the rapist who had entered through a window with a defective lock connecting to the ground via a fire escape.

He took the offer, they found the condoms, did not find him. My company paid out close to two millions. Jury award against the landlord. But that's civil not criminal!

She pleaded with him " I have cancer" He replied " well more of a reason to enjoy yourself before you die"!

What if she had said " I am dying of aids" ?

Would that work?
Allen M.

Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Allen M. »

Nothing would work. Those kinds of people have their brains in the wrong head.

The perpetrator, that is.

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited September 05, 2000).]
Ian
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Post by Ian »

I too have heard of the condom method of rape damge control. A woman was attacked in her house and convinced the attacker to use a condom, he raised this in his defense and was soundly convicted. I'm sure much of it has to do with circumstance. It may well be a defense for a iffy date rape scenario when what happened is hard to prove. But I don't think that's what we're talking about. In any case, I don't think the condom argument could be dismissed even if it ALWAYS resulted in avoiding jail for the attacker. There're other considerations, like life or death health issues.

Let's say a woman (or man) can defecate at the right moment. Perhaps this is more fear related than intentional, but whatever. What can it hurt? I don't think the "danger" is in asuming how rapists think, but in what a disgusted rapist might do when thwarted this way.

I am certain that some, but not all, rapists would be deterred by a threat of AIDS. They are not actually bizarre animals from another planet. They are mean men we see everyday on the street. Look at surveys of college men and you'll be astonished how many approve of, use, or fantasize about the use of force in sex. This does not make rapists out of their heads. It makes them more like normal guys, unfortunately. And some normal guys would not ignore a convincing threat of HIV.

Lastly, re: the doomsday threats about rapists who'd like to have your family as an audience, let's not forget what the majority of rapes are like: date rapes, acquaintance or spousal rapes. Some horny obnoxious drunk frat boy is not going to rape someone with a panty full of feces, in my mind... Then there's the issue of prosecution--the more witnesses, the more ways things can go wrong, the more people there are to identify him. So even with stranger rapes publicity is often avoided by the rational assailant. No?
Lori
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Lori »

Oh man - this may take a while.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:
I too have heard of the condom method of rape damge control. A woman was attacked in her house and convinced the attacker to use a condom, he raised this in his defense and was soundly convicted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad it worked once - hopefully a new trend. But doubtful. Too many other cases where women have a hard enough time proving that saying "no" is enough evidence that she didn't really "want" it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I'm sure much of it has to do with circumstance. It may well be a defense for a iffy date rape scenario when what happened is hard to prove. But I don't think that's what we're talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes we are - rape is rape - date or otherwise. The problem with date rape is that most women do not even report it because of it's difficulty to prove! Sad but true. No still means no - but still one out of four women is raped on a college campus.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In any case, I don't think the condom argument could be dismissed even if it ALWAYS resulted in avoiding jail for the attacker. There're other considerations, like life or death health issues.
Do you honestly believe that an animal/predator/rapist, intent on CONTROL, and DOMINATION, not sex - would actually give a damn about a stupid woman bleating out threat of an STD? It doesn't seem likely. The very act is in defiance of any respect for life - or the preservation of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Let's say a woman (or man) can defecate at the right moment. Perhaps this is more fear related than intentional, but whatever. What can it hurt?
Since we are discussing health risks here - how about the risk of penetration with excrement contaminating things? Some twisted animals actually "get off" on that as well from what I hear - using bodily eliminations as further humiliation for the victim. Read some victim stories - they are enough to sicken even the toughest stomach.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I don't think the "danger" is in asuming how rapists think, but in what a disgusted rapist might do when thwarted this way.
I don't see how it could be that easy to actually disgust a rapist. From everything I've read about the crime, they are NOT in this for the sexual gratification - it is about power and humiliation. Not some juvenile fantasy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I am certain that some, but not all, rapists would be deterred by a threat of AIDS.
How are you so certain? Have you interviewed some of these animals or read their twisted answers in psychological interviews where they say they'd do it again and the bitch deserved it? As they sit in jail where their risk from HIV/AIDS multiplies I don't know how many times and that STILL does not deter prison behavior that perpetuates it?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
They are not actually bizarre animals from another planet.
Ok - I'll give you the "other planet" distinction - but "bizarre animals" seems to approach the definition of "predator". But I suppose you would have to have more empathy for a victim to understand that!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> They are mean men we see everyday on the street. Look at surveys of college men and you'll be astonished how many approve of, use, or fantasize about the use of force in sex. This does not make rapists out of their heads. It makes them more like normal guys, unfortunately.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT????? NORMAL GUYS DO NOT RAPE WOMEN! Unless your definition of "normal" is WAY out of any book I've ever read - and any moral or ethical basis I've ever come across!

Touchy subject here - let's be careful about all encompassing statements! Even though I have been taught and will teach my daughter that a woman has a right to say "no" and any man who violates that right is a rapist.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And some normal guys would not ignore a convincing threat of HIV.
I repeat: Rapists are not normal guys.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Lastly, re: the doomsday threats about rapists who'd like to have your family as an audience, let's not forget what the majority of rapes are like: date rapes, acquaintance or spousal rapes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly Ian - I welcome differing points of view - but I really think you are off the deep end here - in that this statement appears to indicate some lack of reasearch or understanding of the crime. It's not a doomsday threat - there are enough reports of rapes that occur in crowds. Yes - the majority of sexual/assualts agains women are committed by an assailant KNOWN to the woman - this does not mean that they are therefore NORMAL and are not into the control and domination aspect of the crime. Have you read DeBecker's explanation of rape?. There are numerous other texts that may give you some better information - I feel that your current opinion needs a bit more research!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Some horny obnoxious drunk frat boy is not going to rape someone with a panty full of feces, in my mind...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe not - if she can pull it off - and then again - there is the control issue - and horny frat boys have been known to do a few things a LOT more twisted than that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Then there's the issue of prosecution--the more witnesses, the more ways things can go wrong, the more people there are to identify him. So even with stranger rapes publicity is often avoided by the rational assailant. No?
I'm leaving this one to those who have some better statistics than I have on hand. I have a hard time with the term "rational assailant." Isn't it near impossible or highly difficult to get witnesses to testify even if they did see the crime? Ever see a frat brother to stand up against his brother? What about rapes that ONLY occur at the encouragement of the observers who may even participate? ("gang rape") Ever see some scared street vendor to ID the guy who regularly extorts money from him at gunpoint? Don't think so.

Ok - time for me to cool off now. Feel free to jump in any time ladies and gentlemen. I need some help here.


[This message has been edited by Lori (edited September 06, 2000).]
Tim Ahearn
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Tim Ahearn »

Ian certainly doesn't need anyone to defend him, but... I'm left scratching my head after reading Lori's response to Ian's post.

Ian certainly cannot be labeled uninformed; this charge is simply belittling and obviously not borne out by the thoughtfulness of his writing. In fact, Ian's post simply made some rather tame assertions: 1) There's more to think about than rapist conviction when thinking about the condom issue. Asking a rapist to wear a condom does not equal automatic acquittal. 2) Defecation probably won't hurt in terms of rape prevention. 3) The threat of AIDS may deter some rapists. 4) The majority of rapes are perpetrated by people known to the victim--friends, family, acquaintances. 5) Force and control are a part of a large percentage (majority?) of men's sexual fantasies. When looking at rape in this light it begins to look like a rather common extension of a rather normal male sexual psyche. (This is meant to be scary, not to excuse, or rationalize, or normalize the behavior.)

Anyway, as I said, most of these assertions are rather tame. The last one is thought provoking. There is nothing in the post that indicates that Ian doesn't have "some empathy for a victim" of rape, that he believes a woman doesn't have the right to say no, that he doesn't believe rape is about control and domination, that he has "no understanding of the crime."

Ian writes about rape with intelligence and with a first hand knowledge of the horror and destruction it inflicts on its victim. The only way he can be labeled uninformed, or uncaring or whatever is by a great distortion of his words.

OK, I'm done defending him. I'm sure he'll do a better job of it himself.

[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited September 06, 2000).]
Lori
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Post by Lori »

Touchy subject here - especially when it comes to differing views from opposite sides of the "gender fence."

Also - differing views are always welcome here - and I thank Tim and Ian for their boldness in offering a view obviously contrary to my own.

That being said however, caution must be exercised in where insult is intended or implied.

I am not insulting or "belittling" Ian - I AM suggesting that his opinion is NOT as informed as it could be - if it is so well-informed, as Tim suggests, I am at a loss as to where some of the assertions come from - for the statistics and defense literature I have read, (mostly texts recommended on these forums, primarily the Realities one) seem to present a different picture in certain areas.

IF - Ian had presented the "tame" assertions as Tim lists them, they would not have provoked such disagreement on my part.

And let me remind you that I am, as anyone here is, within my right to disagree with anything written here.

My rules remain however, that direct insults are not welcome and will be deleted. The discourse must remain on the ISSUES not the PERSON. I take exception to the ISSUES as Ian presents them - not Ian as a person. If there is an interpretation that I am insulting Ian as a person - kindly point out my oversight and I will remedy the situation.

Writing about subjects as volatile as this - people (myself included) are bound to include some emotional content within the framework of their words and phrases, I am not above misphrasing something in a less than objective journalistic context.

However, I still do not see where I was "belittling" Ian, nor do I call HIM uniformed, I refer to his opinion, his wording. My words are: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
...in that this statement appears to indicate some lack of reasearch or understanding of the crime.
- and I take YOUR comment that I was by my post causing Ian to be <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
labeled uninformed; this charge is simply belittling and obviously not borne out by the thoughtfulness of his writing.
quite differently. I made no charges, nor did I "label him uninformed." I repeat, I have the right to dispute any opinion or issue on any of these forums. I do not feel his writing was as "thoughtful" as you do. I take your comment to be a personal insult. Kindly edit or delete that comment or I will do it for you.



[This message has been edited by Lori (edited September 06, 2000).]
Tim Ahearn
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Post by Tim Ahearn »

Now, I guess, I should defend myself. Image Lori, I never disputed your, or anyone's, "right to disagree" with anything written on these forums. I had no intention of personally insulting anyone, and if my words were taken as such, I apologize. I though I was talking about arguments not personalities.

What I believe I wrote was a synopsis of Ian's main points, trying to show that many of the arguments leveled against him did not follow from what he wrote. This is argument. I also made the statement that your arguments were "belittling" in that they labeled Ian uninformed. Again, this is talking about what was written, not about you the person. And I still believe that that post was dismissive, though I recognize this was not the intention.

Quotes like: "I really think you are off the deep end here." "I feel that your current opinion needs a bit more research!" "lack of research or understanding of the crime."

And the tone created by: "Oh man - this may take a while." "Feel free to jump in any time ladies and gentlemen. I need some help here."

The above above quotes are why I found the post dismissive of Ian's arguments. I believe this is a reasonable reaction. As for insulting I found "But I suppose you would have to have more empathy for a victim to understand that!" such.

Anyway, my posts on this forum, being right or being wrong, none of this is important to me if it means I have to censor what I write, if my posts represent anything but my true thoughts, and reactions to what others have said. So, if you still feel my post lessens the quality of this forum, detracts from the issue at hand, or whatever, after my attempt at explanation, then use the delete key. I will not do it myself.

[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited September 06, 2000).]
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Panther
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Panther »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lori:

1) Is a rapist "rational"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
2) If so, is he rational enough to consider the threat of disease and thus accept the offer of a condom?
I have heard both claims... one was reported in the Worcester (massachusetts) Telegram and Gazette a number of years ago. In both the woman claimed HIV+ status. In one case, the rapist fled amid all sorts of vicious threats and names... In the other case (reported in the T&G), the woman was undergoing a battery of tests, anxiety and worry, because the rapist responded that it wouldn't make any difference to her that he was also... Hers was a ploy, but it didn't stop the rapist...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
3) Does this blur the lines of implied "consent" if the victim asks the attacker to use a condom?
Evidently there have been cases both ways. It shouldn't, but my only firsthand knowledge is a case that was reported where a rapist was freed because the jury considered it a sign of consent.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
4) Does rape by a stranger or a known assailant have any bearing in this matter as in whether the offer of a condom is implied consent?
No is no...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
5) Does the difference in rape by a stranger or a known assailant have any bearing on whether or not body eliminations would deter him?
I'm not qualified to answer...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
6) Has anyone, as JD has asked twice, heard of this "fouling the prize" technique actually working against an attempted rape?
I've heard it suggested in rape prevention classes, but I've never heard it used or whether it works.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
7) Will the threat of AIDS deter a rapist?
Perhaps, but as shown above, it's a risky bet either way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
8) If the rapist uses the condom - what kind of psychological after effects would this have on the victim that would help or hinder recovery?
Rape victims recover?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
My question: What kind of society fosters these kinds of fantasies so that it this (rape) is even an issue in that there are endless debates about consent and implied consent and asking for it etc.?
A sick, twisted society that allows morals and values to be twisted at the whim of those controlling the airwaves and theatres...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The hard part comes in when interpretations and perceptions are that she does not mean "no" - she means "keep trying" - this message is perpetuated in mass media, movies, books, romance novels, everywhere. A case in point to take words at face value and not interpret someone's hidden meaning. No should mean no whether dressed in a potato sack or a mini skirt.
No does mean NO! It is far better for any man (especially if he wants to percieve himself as a "gentleman") to go home alone than it is for him to play mental gymnastics trying to psychically deduce the hidden meanings and desires of another. Simple... So he doesn't ever "get lucky"... big deal... sooner or later, if someone is interested, things will progress. If no one is ever interested, then he's still followed the proper path regardless of his lack of physical experience.
Tim Ahearn
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Post by Tim Ahearn »

Just for my own piece of mind...

Panther wrote: This just shows how warped (IMNSHO) the "average" college-aged male has been allowed to become! If these statements are a part of the current definitions of a "normal" man, I am proud to be abnormal! Furthermore, I have always and will always do everything in my power to prevent this type of "normal" non-consensual behavior!

I am not trying to offer excuses for rapists, or saying that rape is "normal" behavior. Far from it! I'm simply reporting what I've read and seen reported elsewhere. It makes for an interesting topic, I think.

As for allowing our college-aged men to become something... I don't believe any of this is a recent development; it was probably the same way 50 years ago. And I also don't believe this type of "sexual psyche" is limited to young men. Maybe I'm wrong.

So, what this means is that we can say how horrible and non-normal it is, ad nauseam, but we all talk to, and interact with, and love men with these "aberrant" thoughts everyday.
Lori
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Post by Lori »

Panther: Very frightening story about the AIDS/HIV threat and the rapist. Image

Tim: "aberrant" thoughts and "aberrant" actions are two totally different things. We all (men and women) think thoughts that are not pretty or socially acceptable - whether we act on them or not is the measure of emotional maturity that helps define our society.
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Bill Glasheen
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Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

My brothers and sisters

First of all, I agree that this is an emotional topic. Have we not seen the forum implosions - time and time again - on this same topic? We should not be surprised at the occasional flairups.

I cannot express how pleased I am to see Tim and Lori sort the "stuff" out. That speaks volumes for both of them.

Now...back to an important subject that - I believe - some people JUST DON'T GET!!!

DeBecker's name has been bandied about. Let's look in Chapter 3 of The Gift of Fear. Don't be surprised if your firmly-held beliefs on this subject are shaken a bit. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I am capable of what every other human is capable of. This is one of the great lessons of war and life.
- Maya Angelou <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I don't believe in such a thing as the criminal mind. Everyone's mind is criminal; we're all capable of criminal fantasies and thoughts.
- Karl Menninger <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When a bank robber shoots a security guard, we all understand why, but with aberrant killers, people resist the concept of a shared humanness. That's because US and THEM is far more comfortable. In my work I don't have that luxury. The stakes of some predictions require that I intimately recognize and accept what I observe in others no matter who they are, no matter what they have done, no matter what they might do, no matter where it takes me in myself. There may be a time in your life when you too won't have the luxury of saying you don't recongnize someone's sinister intent. Your survival may depend on your recognizing it.

Though anthropologists have long focused on the distinctions between people, it is recognizing the sameness that allows us to most accurately predict violence. Of course, accepting someone's humanness does not mean excusing his behavior.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> - DeBecker

Read the whole chapter yourself.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited September 06, 2000).]
Lori
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Post by Lori »

Bill: Excellent timing! Thanks for adding those exerpts. I suppose we all would like to villify predators - they are some kind of non-human entity when they are as human as you and I - and yet - I still feel myself that in the actual act of violence - they are closer to their animal side than their human one. It is, as my last post said, the difference between whether we think the thoughts or actually act on them that separates the (so-called) normal from the aberrant! In DeBecker's prediction tactics - it is important to remember that the "animal" may be your next door neighbor. Yet we all, as Maya Angelou points out, are capable of anything. It depends again upon our ability to restrict/define/structure those actions.
Tony-San

Rape/Self-Defense Advice?

Post by Tony-San »

There are folks out there with some really bizarre fetishes. chances are, you're rapist will be one of these kooks. You may find that the sight of your pee-pee and poo-poo might actually make things worse. Remember, these ain't your normal, everyday fellows.
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