Being able to recognize and accurately predict violent or aberrant behavior is a necessary ability in today's society...
Others may think it "chic" to "admit" their capability to do anything, but "capability" does not equate to desire. The survey of college males previously mentioned indicated a large number had fantasies of forced sex.
Forced sex is RAPE. plain and simple.
Yes, I am "capable"... I have all the "equipment", but I do not have the desire or the will... and I don't harbor the fantasy.
Every woman has the "equipment" to be a prostitute... I sincerely doubt that many harbor the fantasy or desire to actually pursue that as a career choice!
And I wouldn't (personally) insult them by insinuating it as "normal"... even if a "majority of colleged aged women surveyed" were to claim it as a desire!
There is a difference in the "criminal mind"... regardless of the psycho-babble that claims otherwise. As Lori points out, thinking and doing are different. The "criminal mind" does... that's what ulitmately proves they're the criminal. If they only thought their criminality without every expressing it, then no one would ever know...
As for Debecker's immersion into the criminally aberrant psyche... Once he reaches the point where he has empathy with that criminal's thoughts and actions, he needs to seriously step back and rejoin the normal world.
Having an understanding of the criminal's mindset is necessary for survival... having an empathetic understanding can be a conversion. Work for the former, but never succumb to the latter.
If that means I "just don't get it"... Fine!
I'll remain absent of those intentions, desires and actions.
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Moderator: Available
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Lori
Agreed.
As a professional engineer and an arm-chair psychologist, I understand the complexity of all this.
On the one hand, we all have an emotional reaction to what is proposed by psychologists like Skinner and criminologists like DeBecker. We do not WANT to believe we CAN BE predictable, and we do not want to accept our shared psyche.
On the other hand, mathematical chaos tells us that there are systems in life where - under the right conditions - the process is completely deterministic and the outcome is completely unpredictable. This is why our best mental and mathematical models NEVER can predict the future 100% of the time.
But to the extent that things are predictable, we are foolish to discount emotional predictability for emotional reasons.
- Bill
Agreed.
As a professional engineer and an arm-chair psychologist, I understand the complexity of all this.
On the one hand, we all have an emotional reaction to what is proposed by psychologists like Skinner and criminologists like DeBecker. We do not WANT to believe we CAN BE predictable, and we do not want to accept our shared psyche.
On the other hand, mathematical chaos tells us that there are systems in life where - under the right conditions - the process is completely deterministic and the outcome is completely unpredictable. This is why our best mental and mathematical models NEVER can predict the future 100% of the time.
But to the extent that things are predictable, we are foolish to discount emotional predictability for emotional reasons.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Panther
Remember Silence of the Lambs? The best professional criminologists struggle with all of this, in spite of the rational nature of it all.
It's perfectly appropriate to feel disgust, and to distance yourself from these actions. It's also human to struggle with the thoughts.
- Bill
Remember Silence of the Lambs? The best professional criminologists struggle with all of this, in spite of the rational nature of it all.
It's perfectly appropriate to feel disgust, and to distance yourself from these actions. It's also human to struggle with the thoughts.
- Bill
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Glasheen-sempai,
Never watched the movie... don't know too much about it.
I don't discount emotional predictability... I use it quite often to insure safety in an unsafe world.
I know I'm predictable... in many ways. However, there are certain things that (for me) go beyond disgusting... forcing someone into sexual acts is one of those.
(I've faced that repulsive cowardly act with more than one woman I've known...
)
Perhaps it's my early environment. I have three sisters and no brothers. We were raised in a rural setting where the nearest neighbor was over a mile away... nearest with a boy around my age was over two... close to three miles away. I learned about women (what this feeble male mind can understand
) from women.
No means NO!
(and to plagerize Mr. T) "I pity the fool that tries to prove otherwise with a woman I love!"
Criminologists that over empathize with the criminal mind have been known to turn into criminals... The really good ones know when to back away and return to normality.
Fantasies of raping someone are not normal in my opinion... and just so there's no misunderstanding, I have absolutely NO problems with any acts that are performed between consenting adults... let your "fetishes and kinks" run wild... doesn't bother me in the least. If you want to consent to being tied up and your partner wants to consent to having marshmellow fluff... ummmm... nevermind...
anyway, that's fine... just don't force anyone into anything.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited September 06, 2000).]
Never watched the movie... don't know too much about it.
I don't discount emotional predictability... I use it quite often to insure safety in an unsafe world.
I know I'm predictable... in many ways. However, there are certain things that (for me) go beyond disgusting... forcing someone into sexual acts is one of those.
(I've faced that repulsive cowardly act with more than one woman I've known...
)Perhaps it's my early environment. I have three sisters and no brothers. We were raised in a rural setting where the nearest neighbor was over a mile away... nearest with a boy around my age was over two... close to three miles away. I learned about women (what this feeble male mind can understand
) from women. No means NO!
(and to plagerize Mr. T) "I pity the fool that tries to prove otherwise with a woman I love!"
Criminologists that over empathize with the criminal mind have been known to turn into criminals... The really good ones know when to back away and return to normality.
Fantasies of raping someone are not normal in my opinion... and just so there's no misunderstanding, I have absolutely NO problems with any acts that are performed between consenting adults... let your "fetishes and kinks" run wild... doesn't bother me in the least. If you want to consent to being tied up and your partner wants to consent to having marshmellow fluff... ummmm... nevermind...
anyway, that's fine... just don't force anyone into anything. [This message has been edited by Panther (edited September 06, 2000).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Panther
No is such a simple word and concept. Those that ignore it cannot feign ignorance.
Much of what you say rings true, Panther. And believe me - nobody is preaching mushy liberalism here. Understanding and predicting is strictly a pragmatic approach to dealing with the potential of harm to oneself. The aftermath (and consequences to those that have harmed individuals and broken the laws of society) is an altogether different issue. At times....I wish there were a roach spray for the vermin among us. Sick actions deserve consequences.
And giving credence to what you are trying to articulate, Panther, what I am suggesting is that the seasoned criminologist and law enforcement officer is adversely affected by all this - even if it is "rational" and we recognize the behavior through understanding of our own deamons within. How can people deal with the actions of the most hardened criminals among us and then go home and play with their kids? These actions have MANY victims. The torture ripples through our society. Just look at the response to all this in the very thread we are in!
- Bill
No is such a simple word and concept. Those that ignore it cannot feign ignorance.
Much of what you say rings true, Panther. And believe me - nobody is preaching mushy liberalism here. Understanding and predicting is strictly a pragmatic approach to dealing with the potential of harm to oneself. The aftermath (and consequences to those that have harmed individuals and broken the laws of society) is an altogether different issue. At times....I wish there were a roach spray for the vermin among us. Sick actions deserve consequences.
And giving credence to what you are trying to articulate, Panther, what I am suggesting is that the seasoned criminologist and law enforcement officer is adversely affected by all this - even if it is "rational" and we recognize the behavior through understanding of our own deamons within. How can people deal with the actions of the most hardened criminals among us and then go home and play with their kids? These actions have MANY victims. The torture ripples through our society. Just look at the response to all this in the very thread we are in!
- Bill
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Oh... sorry... it appears we're in agreement.
You make my point more lcearly and more eloquently than I have in my emotional stuper...
You make my point more lcearly and more eloquently than I have in my emotional stuper...
-
Gilbert MacIntyre
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Sydney, NS, Canada
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Wow do I feel over my head jumping into this one. But you see I have strong feelings on the rights of females.
I think what a victim does when rape becomes inevitable is probably going to be a personal thing. What ever gets her through to the other side. I will teach my daughters that what ever they do is the right thing. Soil themselves, or scream or claw or just go to a far away place in their mind and wait for it to be over. Whatever gets them to be at ease with themselves and the world again.
As for the rapist being a normal guy this sickens me and yet it is also something I will tell my girls. For if they are only looking out for the dirty sleazy perverts, they won't even realize they've been raped by their date.
I remember watching an episode of NYPD Blue. In this one the young cop played by Ricky Schroder(??) dates another cop(female) and they end up at his place. They are both stripped to the waist in his bedroom settling down on the bed when she says she is afraid and that she should leave. Turns out she stays and they simply lie beside each other all night, no sex.
I remember thinking how pleased I was that TV was finally sending out a message to young men on how a real man acts. This is they way I've raised my son.
God help them, and don't judge what they do to get through such an attack, what ever works for each one is right. "It's not your fault."
Gilbert.
I think what a victim does when rape becomes inevitable is probably going to be a personal thing. What ever gets her through to the other side. I will teach my daughters that what ever they do is the right thing. Soil themselves, or scream or claw or just go to a far away place in their mind and wait for it to be over. Whatever gets them to be at ease with themselves and the world again.
As for the rapist being a normal guy this sickens me and yet it is also something I will tell my girls. For if they are only looking out for the dirty sleazy perverts, they won't even realize they've been raped by their date.
I remember watching an episode of NYPD Blue. In this one the young cop played by Ricky Schroder(??) dates another cop(female) and they end up at his place. They are both stripped to the waist in his bedroom settling down on the bed when she says she is afraid and that she should leave. Turns out she stays and they simply lie beside each other all night, no sex.
I remember thinking how pleased I was that TV was finally sending out a message to young men on how a real man acts. This is they way I've raised my son.
God help them, and don't judge what they do to get through such an attack, what ever works for each one is right. "It's not your fault."
Gilbert.
-
Gilbert MacIntyre
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Sydney, NS, Canada
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
I guess what I'm thinking is that when people with all good intentions "tell" women how they should act to ward off an attack, they are setting they victims up to feel responsible for the rape.
"If I had only done this or that" or "I shouldn't have been there" or "if I could have only thrown-up on him, this wouldn't have happened". WRONG this happened because somebody's head is messed up, not your's. This happened because some people teach young males it is cool to attack and force a woman into sex. This happened because society is still trying to find a way to blame the woman.
When we start treating the rapists like lepors and turning their life upside down and making them live through hell, then we might see it stop. Until then just remind the victims whatever they did was right, the wrong thing was done to them...not by them.
Gilbert.
"If I had only done this or that" or "I shouldn't have been there" or "if I could have only thrown-up on him, this wouldn't have happened". WRONG this happened because somebody's head is messed up, not your's. This happened because some people teach young males it is cool to attack and force a woman into sex. This happened because society is still trying to find a way to blame the woman.
When we start treating the rapists like lepors and turning their life upside down and making them live through hell, then we might see it stop. Until then just remind the victims whatever they did was right, the wrong thing was done to them...not by them.
Gilbert.
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Gilbert-san,
Thank you for one of the most empathetic and sensitive statements I have heard from a man on this subject.
Panther-san,
You are right up there too - thank you for your willingness to share a morality that we wish more men shared and/or taught to others.
In fact - most of the responses on this thread have demonstrated more than a little sensitivity to the issue. And for men AND women to be in the same place talking about this uncomfortable subject - well - it's risky at best. How often have you discussed these kind of graphic details in mixed company? Not lately? Wonder why...
Yes - we women get a bit emotional about this subject. And we appreciate men who at least try to realize that not only is this a volatile and sesitive issue (and more so to US - we have an incredibly higher risk of being raped than a male - it happens - but our risk is phenomenally higher!) - but also realize that women, ALL women, are afraid of this crime. Just discussing it is scary. (probably part of why more women aren't posting? - I know they are reading!) We know, from personal experience, experience of someone close to us, or just by intuition, that this crime goes much further than the physical act of agression and the resultant physical consequences of injury, pregnancy, and disease. There is an attack of the MIND and SPIRIT that as I believe Panther expressed understanding or at least empathy with in his statement "Rape victims recover???"
Some do. They call themselves survivors. But it isn't an easy road and they constantly run up against - (ooh - this is a hard sentence to write politically correct, without emotion for fear of someone taking it personally - screw it - DISCLAIMER: this statement is NOT directed at anyone personally) - insensitive idiots who see things through a limited perspective - cut and dry - black and white - and refuse to accept that the VICTIM is more than a body who should or shouldn't have done this or that with a strong EMOTIONAL component that cannot be separated from this issue. Even in the discussion of it. Arm chair quarterbacking should never apply to a rape victim.
Gilbert - I very much like what you say about telling your daughters that ANYTHING they do during the situation is the right thing - as long as they survive. That is the ONLY defense there is: will to survive. And the mindset I teach to women to adopt, if that is their choice to do so, is to decide if they are willing to do ANYTHING IT TAKES TO SURVIVE. It may include any or all of what we've discussed in this thread or in other self-defense topics. It may be completely different. I would never teach my daughter to submit as a tactic - yet I teach her to SURVIVE NO MATTER WHAT - in the I hope never happens event that she is attacked, if she does submit to survive - I will tell her she did the right thing because she is alive.
Now - there is an attached issue to this about survival - that belongs in another thread. Van has approached the issue various times on his forum - how would you feel AFTER a certain incident. Rape victims/survivors have a whole set of issues that may never resolve... especially without help - and without understanding from others.
So, aside from the obvious application to self-defense issues, which is enmired within the framework of the study of martial arts, why else is this important to karate students and teachers?
Because many women come to the martial arts AFTER being attacked in one form or another. Don't bother taking a poll in your dojo - the women may never admit it - even to themselves. But if you spend enough time studying and teaching, and getting to know the women who study - and connecting with them - more likely as a woman (now don't all go rushing out and get a sex change operation!
)- men rarely get this kind of confession - you will know this to be true. I have received private emails and a number of admissions in the last dozen years from women who say that an attack brought them to the martial arts. I will never point them out - some have posted here and have actively stated that they are survivors - others may never want to participate - for obvious reasons including fear of continued attacks by people who refuse to try and understand. Yet we should all realize that they are there. This does not mean that EVERY woman in or who looks into the martial arts has been attacked, but I'll go out on a limb and say that every woman in the martial arts FEARS an attack at some level - especially rape. If they haven't been attacked themselves - I bet the percentage goes up that they know someone who has.
If you teach or work out with women - think about it.
And realize that we are all trying to survive - but some have a bit more that they are surviving FROM!
------------------
Peace,
Lori
Forum Recommended/Reviewed Books
Thank you for one of the most empathetic and sensitive statements I have heard from a man on this subject.
Panther-san,
You are right up there too - thank you for your willingness to share a morality that we wish more men shared and/or taught to others.
In fact - most of the responses on this thread have demonstrated more than a little sensitivity to the issue. And for men AND women to be in the same place talking about this uncomfortable subject - well - it's risky at best. How often have you discussed these kind of graphic details in mixed company? Not lately? Wonder why...
Yes - we women get a bit emotional about this subject. And we appreciate men who at least try to realize that not only is this a volatile and sesitive issue (and more so to US - we have an incredibly higher risk of being raped than a male - it happens - but our risk is phenomenally higher!) - but also realize that women, ALL women, are afraid of this crime. Just discussing it is scary. (probably part of why more women aren't posting? - I know they are reading!) We know, from personal experience, experience of someone close to us, or just by intuition, that this crime goes much further than the physical act of agression and the resultant physical consequences of injury, pregnancy, and disease. There is an attack of the MIND and SPIRIT that as I believe Panther expressed understanding or at least empathy with in his statement "Rape victims recover???"
Some do. They call themselves survivors. But it isn't an easy road and they constantly run up against - (ooh - this is a hard sentence to write politically correct, without emotion for fear of someone taking it personally - screw it - DISCLAIMER: this statement is NOT directed at anyone personally) - insensitive idiots who see things through a limited perspective - cut and dry - black and white - and refuse to accept that the VICTIM is more than a body who should or shouldn't have done this or that with a strong EMOTIONAL component that cannot be separated from this issue. Even in the discussion of it. Arm chair quarterbacking should never apply to a rape victim.
Gilbert - I very much like what you say about telling your daughters that ANYTHING they do during the situation is the right thing - as long as they survive. That is the ONLY defense there is: will to survive. And the mindset I teach to women to adopt, if that is their choice to do so, is to decide if they are willing to do ANYTHING IT TAKES TO SURVIVE. It may include any or all of what we've discussed in this thread or in other self-defense topics. It may be completely different. I would never teach my daughter to submit as a tactic - yet I teach her to SURVIVE NO MATTER WHAT - in the I hope never happens event that she is attacked, if she does submit to survive - I will tell her she did the right thing because she is alive.
Now - there is an attached issue to this about survival - that belongs in another thread. Van has approached the issue various times on his forum - how would you feel AFTER a certain incident. Rape victims/survivors have a whole set of issues that may never resolve... especially without help - and without understanding from others.
So, aside from the obvious application to self-defense issues, which is enmired within the framework of the study of martial arts, why else is this important to karate students and teachers?
Because many women come to the martial arts AFTER being attacked in one form or another. Don't bother taking a poll in your dojo - the women may never admit it - even to themselves. But if you spend enough time studying and teaching, and getting to know the women who study - and connecting with them - more likely as a woman (now don't all go rushing out and get a sex change operation!
)- men rarely get this kind of confession - you will know this to be true. I have received private emails and a number of admissions in the last dozen years from women who say that an attack brought them to the martial arts. I will never point them out - some have posted here and have actively stated that they are survivors - others may never want to participate - for obvious reasons including fear of continued attacks by people who refuse to try and understand. Yet we should all realize that they are there. This does not mean that EVERY woman in or who looks into the martial arts has been attacked, but I'll go out on a limb and say that every woman in the martial arts FEARS an attack at some level - especially rape. If they haven't been attacked themselves - I bet the percentage goes up that they know someone who has.If you teach or work out with women - think about it.
And realize that we are all trying to survive - but some have a bit more that they are surviving FROM!
------------------
Peace,
Lori
Forum Recommended/Reviewed Books
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Oh esteemed Doctor X.
Thank you for clearing all that up!
('bout time you chimed back in!)
Nice post.
Thank you for clearing all that up!
('bout time you chimed back in!)
Nice post.
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Tim:
Regardless of intentions - it is perceptions that drive things in this world.
MY perception was that in your "defense" of Ian, you were insulting to me. Thank you for the apology - I accept it. If Ian perceives my comments to him as personally insulting (which I have already stated were not intended as such) then my apologies would also have to be offered.
To all:
Somewhere a definition must be set - we could argue semantics and phrasing and emotional content of written opinions until kingdom come - but that is not the point here - and I won't let this discussion degenerate to the point where it clouds the issue. We need to stick to the issue - not how everyone phrases everything - and if something is perceived as insulting by someone then point it out - succintly, and get back to the issue.
Let's take debate on semantics and he-said she-said to another thread - this one is about an offered deterrent to attempted rape, and the profferred use of a condom to prevent long term damage (other than the obvious psychological trauma). The fact that men and women will perceive the same written statement in different ways is a valid topic for discussion - but on another thread.
Now back to the topic at hand - some interesting issues are raised and bear further looking into:
1) Is a rapist "rational"?
2) If so, is he rational enough to consider the threat of disease and thus accept the offer of a condom?
3) Does this blur the lines of implied "consent" if the victim asks the attacker to use a condom?
4) Does rape by a stranger or a known assailant have any bearing in this matter as in whether the offer of a condom is implied consent?
5) Does the difference in rape by a stranger or a known assailant have any bearing on whether or not body eliminations would deter him?
6) Has anyone, as JD has asked twice, heard of this "fouling the prize" technique actually working against an attempted rape?
7) Will the threat of AIDS deter a rapist?
8) If the rapist uses the condom - what kind of psychological after effects would this have on the victim that would help or hinder recovery?
Now for the "scary" one - and I agree - posted by Tim: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Regardless of intentions - it is perceptions that drive things in this world.
MY perception was that in your "defense" of Ian, you were insulting to me. Thank you for the apology - I accept it. If Ian perceives my comments to him as personally insulting (which I have already stated were not intended as such) then my apologies would also have to be offered.
To all:
Somewhere a definition must be set - we could argue semantics and phrasing and emotional content of written opinions until kingdom come - but that is not the point here - and I won't let this discussion degenerate to the point where it clouds the issue. We need to stick to the issue - not how everyone phrases everything - and if something is perceived as insulting by someone then point it out - succintly, and get back to the issue.
Let's take debate on semantics and he-said she-said to another thread - this one is about an offered deterrent to attempted rape, and the profferred use of a condom to prevent long term damage (other than the obvious psychological trauma). The fact that men and women will perceive the same written statement in different ways is a valid topic for discussion - but on another thread.
Now back to the topic at hand - some interesting issues are raised and bear further looking into:
1) Is a rapist "rational"?
2) If so, is he rational enough to consider the threat of disease and thus accept the offer of a condom?
3) Does this blur the lines of implied "consent" if the victim asks the attacker to use a condom?
4) Does rape by a stranger or a known assailant have any bearing in this matter as in whether the offer of a condom is implied consent?
5) Does the difference in rape by a stranger or a known assailant have any bearing on whether or not body eliminations would deter him?
6) Has anyone, as JD has asked twice, heard of this "fouling the prize" technique actually working against an attempted rape?
7) Will the threat of AIDS deter a rapist?
8) If the rapist uses the condom - what kind of psychological after effects would this have on the victim that would help or hinder recovery?
Now for the "scary" one - and I agree - posted by Tim: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And I add to that - I've read that similar "force and control" issues play a part in women's fantasies, especially adolescent girls, as well. My question: What kind of society fosters these kinds of fantasies so that it this (rape) is even an issue in that there are endless debates about consent and implied consent and asking for it etc.? I believe it is safe to say that the participants on this thread would agree that a woman has a right to say no - and have those wishes respected. The hard part comes in when interpretations and perceptions are that she does not mean "no" - she means "keep trying" - this message is perpetuated in mass media, movies, books, romance novels, everywhere. A case in point to take words at face value and not interpret someone's hidden meaning. No should mean no whether dressed in a potato sack or a mini skirt.Force and control are a part of a large percentage (majority?) of men's sexual fantasies. When looking at rape in this light it begins to look like a rather common extension of a rather normal male sexual psyche. (This is meant to be scary, not to excuse, or rationalize, or normalize the behavior.)
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
A devilish post! 
------------------
Van Canna
------------------
Van Canna
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
This is probably a risky thing to do, but...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:
Look at surveys of college men and you'll be astonished how many approve of, use, or fantasize about the use of force in sex. This does not make rapists out of their heads. It makes them more like normal guys, unfortunately.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tim Ahearn:
Force and control are a part of a large percentage (majority?) of men's sexual fantasies. When looking at rape in this light it begins to look like a rather common extension of a rather normal male sexual psyche.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This just shows how warped (IMNSHO) the "average" college-aged male has been allowed to become!
If these statements are a part of the current definitions of a "normal" man, I am proud to be abnormal!
Furthermore, I have always and will always do everything in my power to prevent this type of "normal" non-consentual behaviour!
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited September 06, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:
Look at surveys of college men and you'll be astonished how many approve of, use, or fantasize about the use of force in sex. This does not make rapists out of their heads. It makes them more like normal guys, unfortunately.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tim Ahearn:
Force and control are a part of a large percentage (majority?) of men's sexual fantasies. When looking at rape in this light it begins to look like a rather common extension of a rather normal male sexual psyche.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This just shows how warped (IMNSHO) the "average" college-aged male has been allowed to become!
If these statements are a part of the current definitions of a "normal" man, I am proud to be abnormal!
Furthermore, I have always and will always do everything in my power to prevent this type of "normal" non-consentual behaviour!
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited September 06, 2000).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
On the subject of what to do when facing a rape...
Pardon me for seeming to digress, but - in the words of Yogi Berra - this feels like deja vu all over again. J.D. touched on what I am thinking. Is this not like any self defense course? Yes...there are some good rules of thumb. Statistics do support taking your stand rather than going to the second crime scene. But do we really have very many good evidence-based rules beyond that?
And why do some instructors of rape prevention give these "techniques" for survival? How many of you folks out there remember "Duck and cover?" Back in the early sixties around the time of the Cuban missle crisis, we went through these silly drills in my classroom where - in the event of a nuclear attack - we were to duck down under our desks and cover our heads. There were even ads on TV about it.
Yea...right.
But the campaign continued for some time. I truly believe that those who came up with this silly-a$$ed response to the A-bomb were "placating the masses."
Did any good come of it? Did the recipient of the message feel better? Did the messenger feel better? Was any harm done? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
Pardon me for seeming to digress, but - in the words of Yogi Berra - this feels like deja vu all over again. J.D. touched on what I am thinking. Is this not like any self defense course? Yes...there are some good rules of thumb. Statistics do support taking your stand rather than going to the second crime scene. But do we really have very many good evidence-based rules beyond that?
And why do some instructors of rape prevention give these "techniques" for survival? How many of you folks out there remember "Duck and cover?" Back in the early sixties around the time of the Cuban missle crisis, we went through these silly drills in my classroom where - in the event of a nuclear attack - we were to duck down under our desks and cover our heads. There were even ads on TV about it.
Yea...right.
But the campaign continued for some time. I truly believe that those who came up with this silly-a$$ed response to the A-bomb were "placating the masses."
Did any good come of it? Did the recipient of the message feel better? Did the messenger feel better? Was any harm done? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Really?You can't handle the truth!
- Bill
Rape/Self-Defense Advice?
Good posts... Yeeeeeee, Thanks Doc...
MacIntyre-san, Lori-san, everyone,
If you've read any of my responses on self-defense issues and don't already realize this, I will state it clearly, unequivocally, and from personal experience... I posted a condensed version a while back and I used to teach specific women's classes designed around them. BTW... These are just my personal rules and worth exactly what you paid for them:
<blockquote>In a self-defense situation, these are the rules:
# 1) Survive
# 2) Stop the threat by any means necessary to survive
# 3) Don't allow the attacker to take you somewhere else... it reduces your chances of survival
# 4) Utilize your strengths against your attacker's weaknesses... Women are not weaker than men, just have different strengths and must use them in different ways.
# 5) Any opponent can be defeated. (They're "defeated" simply by your survival)
# 6) Do not defeat yourself! Have the WILL to survive
# 7) Make your attacker work hard, while you use "conservation of motion". Then your attacker will wear down and end up defeated AND tired.
# 8) There is no such thing as a "dirty" or "clean" fight! Your only goal is survival
# 9) Anything can and should be used as a weapon. Especially your surroundings.
#10) Do not leave your attacker in a position to continue the attack. Do not think about the attacker's "well-being", the attacker wasn't thinking of yours... therefore, make certain that when you stop the attack that you have definitely stopped the attack. Attackers do not deserve compassion. Attackers have made their choices. Any action you take in self-defense is a legitimate action. SURVIVE!</blockquote>
I sincerely hope that no one misunderstands that my emphasis is and has always been survival... by whatever means necessary. If that means submission, then I would never admonish a woman - OR a man - for their personal choice... survival is key. I will point out to anyone who will listen that statistically, the old advice to "lay back and enjoy it" (grrrrr I really hate that...) is generally not the best course of action... victims, especially women, who resist and fight back have both a higher survival rate AND a lower assault completion rate...
And as for being able to face assaults in general and rape in particular and openly discuss it in a cross-gender fashion... I've talked with women, at length, about these very deep emotional issues involved.
I repeat:
rape victims recover?
No does mean NO! And that includes the woman who can't say "no" for some reason...
Case in point: many years ago a group of us were in the college dorms drinking... One very attractive young woman was really drunk and it was her room, her "party"... As the night wore on, people started leaving and I was going to leave until I noticed that there were four guys hanging around with a certain "look" that I knew wasn't nice. Soooo, even though I had an early class, I hung tight. I wouldn't let these guys near her - and she was being, ahem, encouraging. Finally, in the wee hours, two of them left... then another... after a little bit of us sitting in silence with her giggling, he asked me if I was going to leave. "Nope..." "Fine, then you win." "Yep... I win..." He left. I proceeded to take off this woman's shoes and socks... get her tucked into bed (otherwise fully clothed), set her alarm (she was in my second class the next day), turned off the light, and locked the door behind me as I left. She was in no position to give consent OR say "no"... The next day in class she asked me why I hadn't taken advantage of the situation... "Because it wasn't right." She gave me a hug and thanked me for "saving her". As long as I knew her, she never drank like that again. Besides that hug and thanks, I got nothing for my actions... except the knowledge that I probably prevented a "date rape" that night. And this is only the second time in well-over 20 years that I've ever told about that incident... not for praise, but to make a point. If someone doesn't have their complete faculties about them, men shouldn't "take advantage" of the situation. If it's "meant to be" then it will happen later (and it will be better )... if it's not "meant to be", then get over it and move on... maintaining your integrity and your status as a gentleman. Your conscience will thank you and so will hers.
MacIntyre-san, Lori-san, everyone,
If you've read any of my responses on self-defense issues and don't already realize this, I will state it clearly, unequivocally, and from personal experience... I posted a condensed version a while back and I used to teach specific women's classes designed around them. BTW... These are just my personal rules and worth exactly what you paid for them:
<blockquote>In a self-defense situation, these are the rules:
# 1) Survive
# 2) Stop the threat by any means necessary to survive
# 3) Don't allow the attacker to take you somewhere else... it reduces your chances of survival
# 4) Utilize your strengths against your attacker's weaknesses... Women are not weaker than men, just have different strengths and must use them in different ways.
# 5) Any opponent can be defeated. (They're "defeated" simply by your survival)
# 6) Do not defeat yourself! Have the WILL to survive
# 7) Make your attacker work hard, while you use "conservation of motion". Then your attacker will wear down and end up defeated AND tired.
# 8) There is no such thing as a "dirty" or "clean" fight! Your only goal is survival
# 9) Anything can and should be used as a weapon. Especially your surroundings.
#10) Do not leave your attacker in a position to continue the attack. Do not think about the attacker's "well-being", the attacker wasn't thinking of yours... therefore, make certain that when you stop the attack that you have definitely stopped the attack. Attackers do not deserve compassion. Attackers have made their choices. Any action you take in self-defense is a legitimate action. SURVIVE!</blockquote>
I sincerely hope that no one misunderstands that my emphasis is and has always been survival... by whatever means necessary. If that means submission, then I would never admonish a woman - OR a man - for their personal choice... survival is key. I will point out to anyone who will listen that statistically, the old advice to "lay back and enjoy it" (grrrrr
I really hate that...) is generally not the best course of action... victims, especially women, who resist and fight back have both a higher survival rate AND a lower assault completion rate...And as for being able to face assaults in general and rape in particular and openly discuss it in a cross-gender fashion... I've talked with women, at length, about these very deep emotional issues involved.
I repeat:
rape victims recover?
No does mean NO! And that includes the woman who can't say "no" for some reason...
Case in point: many years ago a group of us were in the college dorms drinking... One very attractive young woman was really drunk and it was her room, her "party"... As the night wore on, people started leaving and I was going to leave until I noticed that there were four guys hanging around with a certain "look" that I knew wasn't nice. Soooo, even though I had an early class, I hung tight. I wouldn't let these guys near her - and she was being, ahem, encouraging. Finally, in the wee hours, two of them left... then another... after a little bit of us sitting in silence with her giggling, he asked me if I was going to leave. "Nope..." "Fine, then you win." "Yep... I win..." He left. I proceeded to take off this woman's shoes and socks... get her tucked into bed (otherwise fully clothed), set her alarm (she was in my second class the next day), turned off the light, and locked the door behind me as I left. She was in no position to give consent OR say "no"... The next day in class she asked me why I hadn't taken advantage of the situation... "Because it wasn't right." She gave me a hug and thanked me for "saving her".
As long as I knew her, she never drank like that again. Besides that hug and thanks, I got nothing for my actions... except the knowledge that I probably prevented a "date rape" that night. And this is only the second time in well-over 20 years that I've ever told about that incident... not for praise, but to make a point. If someone doesn't have their complete faculties about them, men shouldn't "take advantage" of the situation. If it's "meant to be" then it will happen later (and it will be better )... if it's not "meant to be", then get over it and move on... maintaining your integrity and your status as a gentleman. Your conscience will thank you and so will hers.