Women Fighting Men

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Wed Apr 28, 1999 2:59 pm

Although I did make a comment about fighting a woman my size, the truth is that most women aren't over six feet tall or weight well over 200 pounds (we won't talk about how well I do in that department).

How do you teach women to defend against a larger male opponent? Should they use hard blocking or parry and slip? Is it the same approach with men who are small fighting larger men?

Since I've never been taught how to fight someone larger than myself, I really don't have a clue in this area! It's rare that I spar against someone who is taller. The last time I did I just came under and in and boxed him in the face (controlled, of course.)

Any advice?

Cecil

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Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Wed Apr 28, 1999 7:51 pm

The only time I was ever knocked out in karate was by a green-belt woeman in 1975 on a Sunday afternoon in class. I weighed about 170 then, and she was 130, tops, and shorter than I. Some are just tough critters.

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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Thu Apr 29, 1999 12:52 am

Cecil: Do we have an opponent for you! Come to Richmond some day and have a go at Tony - 6'4" and 300# plus some. Uechi, Goju and Judo trained. Has a nasty habit of stomping and pinning the leading foot - OUCH!!!!!!!!!! My right foot is black and blue as we speak.

Tony is looking for someone to challenge him.

Regards, Rich

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Thu Apr 29, 1999 1:22 pm

Man! At first glance I thought you were saying Tony was a large 300 pound woman!

Next time I'm down there I'll see if I can sneak in a visit!

Cecil

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Lori · Post by **Lori** » Sun May 02, 1999 4:58 am

I wanted to bring up a point about women and sparring - and this seems like the thread to do it in. Since I have become involved in teaching - I have noticed recurring attitudes held by newer women students when it comes to sparring. Often there is a lot of fear involved - which is in turn replaced with an incredible feeling of accomplishment when they make it through a few rounds with a senior rank who takes the time to work with them in an "instructional" capacity. I witnessed Tony-san's sparring match that he references above - and he did a beautiful job of encouraging the female karateka - allowing some openings - and fighting back, without pulverizing her. This did many things - taught her how to take openings on an opponent, built her confidence, let her feel some strikes coming in on her - but not so hard and so fast as to scare her completely off. This is NOT to say that I advocate treating women differently - I would use the same approach on many newer students. If you whale on them and beat them to death in the initial sparring confrontations - many will turn tail and run - and I think this may be even more of an issue for women. I have seen many women completely chage tack when they are introduced to sparring with an instructional element that contains confidence building sessions. Nothing is to be gained from wiping the floor with them from the get go. As they increase in skill and practice, then an experienced and senior ranking opponent should be able to make it tougher as they go along. Eventually the gap closes, and some women will give men more hell than other men-as has been written on this forum before. Other women may never take to sparring - but this is more likely to happen when there is too much too soon.

Common sense should prevail here - but often is the case when it does not.

Personally I've experienced both sides of the coin (some opponents taking it to easy - some too hard) and neither bothered me too much. When they took it too easy I just dished out more - when they were too rough - it got me mad enough to figure out how to even things out. This attitude does NOT prevail with many women at the start of their training. A session like Tony worked with that female student seems more productive to me. He sensed it automatically and did a great job with this student - she now feels much better about getting in the ring and although she still gets nervous (don't most of us?) she is more willing to try her skills in that context than she was before. Thanks to a considerate senior who was more concerned with the student learning than working their own agenda. If we don't cultivate the beginners - it may sound a bit business like - and a departure from the old "tough it out" attitude - but new students will never have a chance to grow in karate if they are not given a chance to see that they CAN do more than they thought they could.

Of course I am strongly against building up a false sense of confidence - a healthy dose of reality should be a part of every dojo curriculum - as per Van Sensei's forum. I'm just exploring the concept of sparring/women/and building confidence.

Just wondering what you guys (or gals! please! jump in anytime!) think about this somewhat "gentler" approach?

Peace,
Lori

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sun May 02, 1999 6:43 pm

Women and sparring,

Or could it be woe-to-men in sparring.

Fighting: Two women going at it can be the most vicious fighting scene one can witness.

Sparring: To protect myself first, I have to say that what I am about to write DOES NOT APPLY to Uechi women. !!!!!!!!!!!

Rephrasing to better emphasize my intent, I will say that, IN GENERAL, Uechi women are better fighters than women of other karate styles (I'm NOT talking about kick-boxing nor about soley 'fighting styles'). I say this because of the close contact, toughening, in-fighting weeds-out many women from Uechi who would have remained if the likelyhood of bruises, etc. were diminished. ALSO, Uechi women know how to and do kick HARD as opposed to women on other styles. Again, THIS is a generalization and I am basing my statement on the Bell Curve. When I look into a Uechi class I see a sparse sprinkling of women. When I observe the dojo across the street, it may be made up of 20, 30%, or even greater women population. In other styles if a woman becomes tough and hard it is HER decision. In Uechi the decision is made for her.

This is how I see it; one man's view and opinion. Please don't beat me up too badly if I am incorrect.

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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org

JOHN THURSTON · Post by **JOHN THURSTON** » Sun May 02, 1999 8:53 pm

Allen San:

You're certainly not going to get beat up by me on this one as I have not seen the inside of anywhere near as many "non-Uechi" dojos as have you.

A lot of women are now gravitating , I am told, towards the Tae Bo and Cardio vascualar kick boxing, which, I must say, is more or a workout than I could handle, but it may tie into your thought about "bruises".

Perhaps Lori will have a thought on the matter. There are two ladies in my Dojo, I suppose I could defer to them. One does the cardio kickboxing as well.

John

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Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sun May 02, 1999 11:56 pm

Hello JT.

I fail to see anything in common with either of the two: Tae Bo and Cardio vascualar kick boxing, in terms of learning a fighting/defense skill -- although I consider them excellent supplements to.

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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org

Jackie Olsen · Post by **Jackie Olsen** » Mon May 03, 1999 5:16 am

Kudos to Tony for sensing the apppropriate action and techniques with the partner he's working with. I wholeheartedly advocate that approach.

As for a "kinder, gentler" approach to sparring as a way of building confidence ... I endorse that also. We usually start students out with what we call "ballet sparring" just to get them used to moving, weaving, practicing their hits, kicks and targets. We've also slowed it down to the point of where I may an attack, hold it, and then allow the person to block and counter it, and so on.

After all, we don't start hard Sanchin testing at a white belt level, do we? As the person becomes conditioned and has enough repetitions, they are able to start working up to speed with some confidence.

This just doesn't apply to women. I've worked with quite a few guys who also have a fear of sparring ... whether it be with a gal or a guy. A lot of us just aren't at home in our bodies ... lack of awareness, moves, feeling the hits, etc. I know that was the case with me at the beginning -- and I'm still learning. As Ringo once sang, "It don't come easy."

Jackie

[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited 05-02-99).]

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Mon May 03, 1999 6:43 pm

Are there people out there who think that they can fight just because they are taking a cardio kickboxing or Taebo workout ALONE, without actually sparring against someone?

There may be. However, if you read Mr. Canna's forum on a daily basis, it's enough to make you wonder if traditional training is really all that much more effective in terms of a real confrontation! I'd like to think so.

At least the cardio people are always getting winded. However, the air doesn't hit back!

Devil's advocate,

Cecil

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Moe Mensale · Post by **Moe Mensale** » Tue May 04, 1999 12:57 am

Cecil,

Have you ever watched those Tae Bo commercials at 3am? There is no doubt when you listen to the "testimonials" that this stuff is being pushed as self-defense oriented material. But Billy Blanks and the producers won't/can't admit it. The major problem is that there is no mindsetting involved - just techniques. Wait till one of them runs into a cretin and tries to give them a case of Tae Bo Whoop Ass!!! Sue City for Billy!

I think Allen is dead on. The Uechi system will weed out most women (and men!) who don't appreciate the inherent toughness in it. But those that manage to hang in there can be very formidable fighters. When I was but a mere guppy, we had a 30-35ish female sandan who was the epitome of a Uechi-trained woman.

She was a lady outside the squared circle but absolutely RELISHED the thought of sparring. She gave and expected no quarter and there were quite a few males who refused to spar her, much to sensei's chagrin. She was, however, an excellent role model for the female students and instilled good mindsetting in them.

Just for the record, I never beat her, much as I tried. Today, if she is still training somewhere, I could probably hold my own against her!!

Moe Mensale

david · Post by **david** » Tue May 04, 1999 11:41 am

The "gentler" approach is certainly the way to go if you are looking to develop skills as opposed to doing a "self-selection" of the student's mindset.

I work with two women now. One is a total beginner with natural ability. I give her openings and see if she can take them and whether she can hit with authority. This is important because she's all of 5'. I want her to learn to hit with explosive power. We do a lot of work on focus mits, heavy bag and drills. At the beginning level. I want to the person to have a developing confidence and skills in making hardest impact hits possible relative to their size. When I feel she is more proficient in her attacks, then I will start attacking and countering more to make her defend. Do this too soon and she loses her confidence.

I have another woman right now who is intermediate level. She trains in TKD (but more "realistic" version with lower kicks). This woman has done her sparring and has no problems with attacking. She needs more defense, especially in protecting herself against counters. Again, lots of reflex drills incorporating attack/counterattacks. With the person, the sparring is not 1, 2 and break. It's more 1,2; counter 1, counter/counter 1,2. The idea is to develop her confidence and ability to stand and mix it up with a skilled opponent.

I had another woman who used to train with me who is naturally more aggressive. As soon she stepped on the floor, she was looking to make contact on me. Chased me around and, of course, eventually get something in since one can't defend forever. After couple of these sessions, I started to counter and hit. This was needed to give her a reality check and to make her learn to defend. But, as far self-defense goes, her mindset was already there to fight, fight, fight. Unfortunately, her schedule is different from mine and now works with someone else. That's fine as long as she continues to train.

Of course, adapting the pace of sparring to a student should be the norm, regardless of gender.

david

Lori · Post by **Lori** » Sat Sep 16, 2000 11:21 pm

Brought forward for Dana-san.

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:03 pm

Thanks Lori.

I was taught to teach sparring by starting with sticky hand excercises. Move to slow speed sparring -- which is continuous movement with no power. First one side defends only, then attacks only, then back and forth between the two. Then do the same thing at a medium speed with light contact. Then medium speed with medium contact...etc.

This method seems to work well for women because it is a slow introduction for power and it works well for men because it breaks them of the "one blow one death" (i.e. I hit you once, now I can adjust my gi and get ready for the next round) illusion early in their training.

We are in a learning process most of all.

This same method works well in my kids class. Since touch is a big thing for kids, doing the sticky hands helps them learn how to touch and be touched by another karate-ka without losing focus. Kids are the supreme example of "glove-shy" in the othe thread. I've had kids fall over when I punched in their general direction to demonstrate a kata or just start giggling from their nerves when they put on the sparring gear.

I'm not advocating creating an environment that doesn't push you to your limits. I just think that that's a difficult place to begin.

Dana