<< IMNSHO, anyone that believes that martial arts training (in and of itself) makes them able to "defend themselves against whatever the crud of this world throws at them" is either deluded or hasn't seen some of the $hit the crud is throwing! Not picking on you Cargill-san, just that (again, MNSHO) feeling like your wife/daughter/sister/mother is safe because she can go "toe-to-toe with some guy in a dojo environment is a big mistake! >>
No offense taken.
Now here is maybe another example of the differences of male / female training?
For ME, my martial arts training has instilled some level of control, confidence, and a changed outlook of my enviorment. I KNOW I can defend myself, I am confident in my skills, and I'm aware of whats going on around me more. I Assume that anyone putting in the time and effort of learning and becoming good at any art would do the same..??
<< The obstacles are there for those older than the 12-14 year olds that you mention and different age groups have different issues. (Can you tell this is one of my pet peeves/projects? ) >>
I picked those two simply for the spectrum they represented, The 12 year old has been encouraged, prodded, pushed, everything we can think of and it still was not enough, she quit 2 weeks ago.
The 14 year old has been at it for more than 4 years that I know of and excells at it.
I think there are several points out there that are constructive and could help, It bothers me that some females will come into our studio, and won't last, Some will, but those that leave make me wonder how could we have helped them. Last year we promoted two women in our studio to the rank of Master, neither of them could be considered cythia rothrick, but they stuck it out and put the effort into it. What gives some women whatever it takes and others not?
[This message has been edited by Scott Cargill (edited October 17, 2000).]
Women and sparring in class
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Scott Cargill
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Bakersfield, Ca.
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Women and sparring in class
Hmmmmm...
Allen-san, I never meant to imply in any way, shape or form that anything was guaranteed! My point was that simply because one trains in a MA does not equate (read does not guarantee) to being able to defend one's self from the crud of the world! I guess that came from my statement that I haven't ever met a woman who wasn't able to rise to the challenge... I guess I should qualify that and add "if she wanted to".
Some people (both women and men) just don't take to MA training... That's fine. For some of them, there are other methods of self-defense that they can and do take advantage of. Unfortunately, some people just can't seem to reach a point where they are capable of self-defensive training. (Operative term being "training", because those people will usually try to defend themselves if threatened for real, but are generally doomed to failure...
)
Cargill-san, there are many women who have the same self-defensive attitude as you... make no mistake about it!
At 12 years old, it's even more difficult to do something that we don't feel "good at". We all like to do what we feel we are good at... what is the most comfortable... That's why there are so many folks out there that can throw great kicks, but only with one leg. 
Perhaps you can convince her to give it another go and try a different approach, perhaps not. MA just isn't for some people... Good Luck.
Phoebe-san! Welcome! Always great to get another person's perspective, opinions and insights. Thanks!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoebe:
I know that I'm decent, but I am often painfully aware of my shortcomings, shortcomings that my peers and sensei do not seem to be able to help me overcome. Is this because they are male, and therefore cannot understand where I am coming from? Or is it all in my head? I feel that I have gained a lot by having learned to spar with men, but at the same time I wonder if I would have learned even more if I had had the opportunity to spar with high ranked women as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It shouldn't be because they are male, but it may be because they don't understand where you're coming from. I doubt it's all in your head. The more different people we work out with, the more perspectives we can get... which helps us all through our problem areas.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited October 17, 2000).]
Allen-san, I never meant to imply in any way, shape or form that anything was guaranteed! My point was that simply because one trains in a MA does not equate (read does not guarantee) to being able to defend one's self from the crud of the world! I guess that came from my statement that I haven't ever met a woman who wasn't able to rise to the challenge... I guess I should qualify that and add "if she wanted to".
Some people (both women and men) just don't take to MA training... That's fine. For some of them, there are other methods of self-defense that they can and do take advantage of. Unfortunately, some people just can't seem to reach a point where they are capable of self-defensive training. (Operative term being "training", because those people will usually try to defend themselves if threatened for real, but are generally doomed to failure...
) Cargill-san, there are many women who have the same self-defensive attitude as you... make no mistake about it!
At 12 years old, it's even more difficult to do something that we don't feel "good at". We all like to do what we feel we are good at... what is the most comfortable... That's why there are so many folks out there that can throw great kicks, but only with one leg. Perhaps you can convince her to give it another go and try a different approach, perhaps not. MA just isn't for some people... Good Luck.Phoebe-san! Welcome! Always great to get another person's perspective, opinions and insights. Thanks!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoebe:
I know that I'm decent, but I am often painfully aware of my shortcomings, shortcomings that my peers and sensei do not seem to be able to help me overcome. Is this because they are male, and therefore cannot understand where I am coming from? Or is it all in my head? I feel that I have gained a lot by having learned to spar with men, but at the same time I wonder if I would have learned even more if I had had the opportunity to spar with high ranked women as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It shouldn't be because they are male, but it may be because they don't understand where you're coming from. I doubt it's all in your head. The more different people we work out with, the more perspectives we can get... which helps us all through our problem areas.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited October 17, 2000).]
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Allen M.
Women and sparring in class
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
[One of] the problem[s] is that too many who enter the martial arts are disillusioned into thinking that a few classes will give them street smarts or a black belt certificate indicates they are a fighter.
BTW, Panther, did you write somewhere that you are from the Boston area?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
If they are too rough on you, you can always speak up and open a line of dialogue with the others in your dojo. Most people can't guess that you are having a rough time, and if you quit, they'll wonder why.
Hmmm.... If more did, there'd be dojos on every street corner. Fighting arts are definitely not for the masses, and most who start out drop out.Some people (both women and men) just don't take to MA training...
[One of] the problem[s] is that too many who enter the martial arts are disillusioned into thinking that a few classes will give them street smarts or a black belt certificate indicates they are a fighter.
BTW, Panther, did you write somewhere that you are from the Boston area?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I'll bet much of the sticktooitiveness is the same as for men -- you have to have the fever. But I think it is tougher for women because most weigh much less than a guy, are smaller, and bruise easier.What gives some women whatever it takes and others not?
If they are too rough on you, you can always speak up and open a line of dialogue with the others in your dojo. Most people can't guess that you are having a rough time, and if you quit, they'll wonder why.
Women and sparring in class
"I'll bet much of the sticktooitiveness is the same as for men -- you have to have the fever. But I think it is tougher for women because most weigh much less than a guy, are smaller, and bruise easier."
-Allen M.
I definately think that the reason why women may drop out of a MA program more often than men is not simply an issue of physical
differences. Most women are raised, and exist, in an environment where woman are not traditionally seen as 'fighters'. From a very early age, most girls are led to believe that men are the agressive and physically violent sex, and that woman do not have the potential for either aggression or physical violence.
Therefore, when a woman starts a MA program who has had no fighting experience before, she will likely feel very out of place and probably confused, not because she is not motivated and strong, but because she does not have the same context in which to place her martial arts training as a man may have. I would think that woman would be more likely to quit not because of the bruises themselves, (I'm pretty proud of mine!)but because they feel that they are not capable of becoming 'fighters'- that they feel they do not inherintly possess whatever it is that enables us to be agressive, to punch and kick and spar and attain that 'fever'. They probably feel that they will *never* be able to attain it. So they give up.
I'm not sure what should be done to convince such women that they are capable of reaching inside themselves and finding whatever it is that makes a martial artist a martial artist. I think that everyone has the potential there, but it is a matter of discovering what, in each individual, needs to be done to gain access to that potential.
-Phoebe
-Allen M.
I definately think that the reason why women may drop out of a MA program more often than men is not simply an issue of physical
differences. Most women are raised, and exist, in an environment where woman are not traditionally seen as 'fighters'. From a very early age, most girls are led to believe that men are the agressive and physically violent sex, and that woman do not have the potential for either aggression or physical violence.
Therefore, when a woman starts a MA program who has had no fighting experience before, she will likely feel very out of place and probably confused, not because she is not motivated and strong, but because she does not have the same context in which to place her martial arts training as a man may have. I would think that woman would be more likely to quit not because of the bruises themselves, (I'm pretty proud of mine!)but because they feel that they are not capable of becoming 'fighters'- that they feel they do not inherintly possess whatever it is that enables us to be agressive, to punch and kick and spar and attain that 'fever'. They probably feel that they will *never* be able to attain it. So they give up.
I'm not sure what should be done to convince such women that they are capable of reaching inside themselves and finding whatever it is that makes a martial artist a martial artist. I think that everyone has the potential there, but it is a matter of discovering what, in each individual, needs to be done to gain access to that potential.
-Phoebe
Women and sparring in class
Allen-san,
Originally from NC, moved to Boston and lived in Back Bay for 3 years, moved to various 'burbs over the next few years after that and finally ended up in north central Massachusetts. (Should have moved just ~15 miles further north and escaped completely... )
Originally from NC, moved to Boston and lived in Back Bay for 3 years, moved to various 'burbs over the next few years after that and finally ended up in north central Massachusetts. (Should have moved just ~15 miles further north and escaped completely...
)-
Scott Cargill
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Bakersfield, Ca.
- Contact:
Women and sparring in class
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phoebe:
I definately think that the reason why women may drop out of a MA program more often than men is not simply an issue of physical
differences. Most women are raised, and exist, in an environment where woman are not traditionally seen as 'fighters'. From a very early age, most girls are led to believe that men are the agressive and physically violent sex, and that woman do not have the potential for either aggression or physical violence.
I Think THAT's the point I was trying to get across. you just point it out better.
If we could just find the right trigger.....
I definately think that the reason why women may drop out of a MA program more often than men is not simply an issue of physical
differences. Most women are raised, and exist, in an environment where woman are not traditionally seen as 'fighters'. From a very early age, most girls are led to believe that men are the agressive and physically violent sex, and that woman do not have the potential for either aggression or physical violence.
I Think THAT's the point I was trying to get across. you just point it out better.
If we could just find the right trigger.....
Women and sparring in class
Welcome Scott and Phoebe! Nice to have both of your participation here! You've both brought out some good points... as have some of our regular contributors as well (thanks!)
I don't have much time to write tonight but wanted to add to a point that has been emerging in this thread - one that has been brought out once or twice in other threads - and that is the "conditioning," social or emotional that males and females receive growing up that affects their attitude toward sparring. Yes - there are notable exceptions - but - as a rule, guys grow up where hitting, shoving, and physical contact is often a part of every day life - perhaps expected and even in a positive sense. On the other hand, as a rule, girls do not play games involving that kind of physical contact - and - if they have been hit at all it is usually with the implication that she has done something "bad." I believe this is one of the major hurdles to women and sparring. Yes - as has been pointed out many times - there are notable exceptions on both sides. However, as this forum keeps bringing out - gender differences will NEVER disappear - we cannot practice martial arts of any kind and pretend that gender never factors in - it does - as we keep finding out here. In the social context - this physical aspect of play that is more common with boys than with girls is something to consider when teaching/training with women in martial arts.
One thing that I do to "awaken" that inner fire in a woman - is find a personal "trigger." For a young mother it may be imagery of a threat to her child. For a younger girl it could be an aggravating sibling - they cannot use physical force in life but they can use the imagery in the dojo to get in touch with a little of that "fire in the belly." I use whatever I can - it's almost a "head game" so to speak for me to throw out a few images/ideas until I see one take hold and all the sudden they are whaling on that bag like they intend to crush it. I often refer to it as "invoking the mother bear within." This is only used with beginning students until they learn to tap into their own sense of spirit - but it seems to be an effective way to get some students started.
FWIW
I don't have much time to write tonight but wanted to add to a point that has been emerging in this thread - one that has been brought out once or twice in other threads - and that is the "conditioning," social or emotional that males and females receive growing up that affects their attitude toward sparring. Yes - there are notable exceptions - but - as a rule, guys grow up where hitting, shoving, and physical contact is often a part of every day life - perhaps expected and even in a positive sense. On the other hand, as a rule, girls do not play games involving that kind of physical contact - and - if they have been hit at all it is usually with the implication that she has done something "bad." I believe this is one of the major hurdles to women and sparring. Yes - as has been pointed out many times - there are notable exceptions on both sides. However, as this forum keeps bringing out - gender differences will NEVER disappear - we cannot practice martial arts of any kind and pretend that gender never factors in - it does - as we keep finding out here. In the social context - this physical aspect of play that is more common with boys than with girls is something to consider when teaching/training with women in martial arts.
One thing that I do to "awaken" that inner fire in a woman - is find a personal "trigger." For a young mother it may be imagery of a threat to her child. For a younger girl it could be an aggravating sibling - they cannot use physical force in life but they can use the imagery in the dojo to get in touch with a little of that "fire in the belly." I use whatever I can - it's almost a "head game" so to speak for me to throw out a few images/ideas until I see one take hold and all the sudden they are whaling on that bag like they intend to crush it. I often refer to it as "invoking the mother bear within." This is only used with beginning students until they learn to tap into their own sense of spirit - but it seems to be an effective way to get some students started.
FWIW
