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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2000 6:24 am 
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Author Helen Rowland is credited with this gem:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
A woman need know but one man well, in order to understand all men; whereas a man may know all women and understand not one of them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about it? Agree? Disagree? Ladies? Gentlemen? In betweens?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2000 6:01 pm 
The only thing that qualifies the sentence is the use of the word "may" in two places.

What Helen wrote "may" be true in some cases, whereas what she said is not strong enough to categorize neither men nor women in a definite or general sense.

The first time I read the quote, I said to myself "Helen Rowland must have had bad luck with men."


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2000 10:27 pm 
Bad News. Some People are Just Bad News.

I located a whole bunch of Helen's quotes at this website a few minutes ago. She really must have been stung!

http://www.cyber-nation.com/victory/quotations/authors/quotes_rowland_helen.html


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2000 3:21 pm 
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Location: Bakersfield, Ca.
As a general rule, YEP! heh heh...

The differences in the male and female are there, no matter what anyone says, or belives. Some of those differences are just completely alien to the opposite sex, Can a male understand a specific aspect of the females mindset? in some cases yes, in others not a chance. And vise versa.

Basic level, (Don't shoot ME over this one)

From the guys point of view : Women have 3 overiding goals from birth, Get married, have a child or more, take care of child and husband (Nearly the same task).

Men only have 2 goals, get a job making a lot of money, and have fun.

Hows that for sterotyping?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2000 4:54 am 
Man Chases Woman Until She Catches Him.

Bang, bang.

Young kids don’t know what they want [Except hire a teenager while he still knows it all.].

The number of women who want to take care of husbands and kids is dwindling fast and in some areas they are on the endangered species list. So if you're still single, Scott, and want someone to take care of you, better let one catch you before they become extinct.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2000 12:42 pm 
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Location: Bakersfield, Ca.
Heh Heh Heh!!

Done did, I've been married for a whole month now! hahahah


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2000 11:21 pm 
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Lori ... I disagree with that statement. I think even women may know all men and still not understand them.

And, what about the cultural differences? I was the liasion/host for a Ukrainian Businessman this week at our company. What a joy that was to look at me through his eyes. It's been a long time (in business or otherwise) where a man opens the door for you, helps you IN and OUT of a car, and actually asks your opinion on what to order for dinner!! I know, I've hung around the wrong crowd!

I think this internet thing has encouraged more verbal fencing than personal interactions.

Jackie

[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited November 05, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2000 4:17 am 
Oh man, Scott. I wish I would'a known that two months ago. I'da let you borrow my kids for two weeks -- You'd still be single today. [Got a phone call. Got to go in to Boston to pick up a stranded teenager at 11:30 or whenever I get there and still get up at 5am to go to work. Standard fare; your turn is coming. Think about it when mama bear wants some kiddies -- The fun you are going to have for the fun you had -- Hah hah hah]
<hr>
Hi Jackie. You are right about verbal fencing.

There ARE a few gentlemen left in the world, though, so don't give up hope. I don't see much of that common couresy anymore either. Do you think it is because of the clamor of equality that the male busimness types saod "ok." [not fencing, but serious question, Jackie.]


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2000 1:00 pm 
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Yes, Allen,

I agree. Perhaps in our quests to suceed in business, martial arts, politics or anyother arena, we've wanted to be "one of the boys," which translates "be taken seriously."

This, I believe, has caused confusion between both sexes on just what is common courtesy, kindness, or proper etiquette.

I'm sure there are many gentlemen left in this world ( I count YOU and other guys found on this forum among them).

Yours for the re-institution of kindness, courtesy, and respect between all people!

------------------
In Beauty,

Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2000 5:21 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jackie Olsen:
...
And, what about the cultural differences? I was the liasion/host for a Ukrainian Businessman this week at our company. What a joy that was to look at me through his eyes. It's been a long time (in business or otherwise) where a man opens the door for you, helps you IN and OUT of a car, and actually asks your opinion on what to order for dinner!! I know, I've hung around the wrong crowd!

...

Jackie
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Jackie-san:

You bring up a very good point about cultural differences - and I would have to add age to that as well. There ARE still men out there who know how to treat a woman like a woman - opening doors - discussing dinner - offering his or taking her arm and walking with her to the inside of the road -
even letting her shower first so she has more time to dry her hair - all these little things are courtesies between the genders that are lost over borders, oceans and time. I defy you to find one man in his twenties or thirties in this country who does all those things naturally. Maybe not impossible - but hard to find for sure - even in the 40's and 50's.

I happen to prefer these courtesies... Does that make me sexist or some other -ist or -ism because I happen to feel that the "codes" of manners and deportment are sadly lacking today? Fine - label me as you will - but I for one enjoy being treated as a woman - and having a man who treats me like a woman - not only is it incredibly romantic - it is a beautiful way to respond and celebrate our differences. Sure - I'm capable of opening a door myself - but I don't mind one being held open for me - and if it is by the man I love - it is a gesture of his caring for me - and as such - I appreciate it every single time it happens.

Just because we have made martial arts a part of our life - practicing "fighting like a man" and even working extra to try and keep up - doesn't mean that we don't like to be treated like women - the men who know this - or who have it as a part of their upbringing (from somewhere not here that's for sure!) go up in estimation maybe without even realizing why...

Didn't someone say something about everything in the martial arts beginning and ending with courtesy? Image So often we blur the lines between gender - or at least try to - with all the PC garbage - the "s/he" language as the way we write - the pontificating senseis that state "I don't see a male or female student - I only see a student" is all a load of - to borrow Panther-san's latest reverse acronym - bravo sierra. A large part of the reason for the inception of this forum was to point out the differences between male/female karateka - and not to try and minimize them - but instead celebrate and even exploit them to our advantage! (of course - we women keep the advantage part secret and off the forum - can't let you guys figure out we figured it out... Image)

Anyway - thanks to all contributors - male and female. I like to throw things like this quote out there not to support an agenda of mine -but only as an interesting topic of discussion - as such of course all views welcome - as usual - only no personal attacks. This forum has a way of pushing some buttons and maybe even inciting an angry opinion or two - and dissenting views are still welcome - only again - no personal references.

So don't worry about a gender war Allen-san - as long as you don't pick on me personally I promise not to unleash my cyber mama bear personality! After all - I didn't even touch Scott's comment did I? (Actually - I kind of agree with him that that may very well be a majority view!)

Keep posting!
-Lori


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2000 1:41 am 
The Gender Wars.

Lori, if I can’t pick on you, then I’ll try Jackie!

Jackie,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I agree. Perhaps in our quests to succeed in business, martial arts, politics or another arena, we've wanted to be "one of the boys," which translates "be taken seriously."


Some men, no, a lot of men feel threatened when a woman takes her apron off and puts on a business suit or karate gi, or anything else “masculine.” Too bad, because we NEED more competent people in the workplace.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
This, I believe, has caused confusion between both sexes on just what is common courtesy, kindness, or proper etiquette.

My take on this is the flower people of the 60s and 70s withered on the vine or went to seed. Another more direct way of putting it is [young men’s fear of] Vietnam, drugs, lack of parental control, and “free sex” destroyed a large part of that generation plus the generation to follow. It was just too much to handle and too fast.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I'm sure there are many gentlemen left in this world.


Never before have I seen so many men call women assholes, and vice versa as I have in the last ten years. It is epidemic with the appearance we are in a cesspool of hate. There are plenty of decent people, it just gets more difficult to find them.

Men and women have, in a large way, lost respect for the opposite sex, which translates to loss of respect for themselves.

<hr>
Lori, good women like to be pampered in much the same way you do, and good men enjoy pampering them too. I better make sure I open doors for you at next year’s summer camp else I’ll be in trouble.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
the men who know this … as a part of their upbringing

Moms out there have to teach the boys the way, that’s all there is to it.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I don't see a male or female student - I only see a student


Hey, hey! I used to say that too, sometimes -- sometimes true, other times differences were apparent.



[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited November 09, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2000 10:26 pm 
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Posts: 191
Location: Sydney, NS, Canada
I would hope I wouldn't be painted with the same brush as a man who abuses his family. I believe I am more than just a grunting control monger. I have many sides, some are more fun than others, but I don't think any of them are cruel.

I also think I understand the women I have had contact with. They are simply people who want to be appreciated, excited, loved. They like to be interested as much as interesting, they(women) want what we want(men) to be happy. That doesn't seem like alot to ask, nor hard to figure out.
Gilbert


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2000 12:34 am 
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Gilbert-san - you wouldn't catch me painting you with that brush. Evil knows no gender - and it is unfair to lump a character trait or deficiency in with a gender - even though we do it jokingly - even in the quote at the top of this thread.

It's also on the joke on GEM sensei's front page!

It's everywhere - we can't escape it - but the negative aspects are the ones people bristle at.

Myself included!

Just because I'm female doesn't make me any kind of -ist. Doesn't make me anything other than myself - encompassed within this particular (gender) manifestation of humanity. We need both - both exist - both create a conflict that brings forth more creativity - if we let it. The conflict can also be destructive - the other side and balance of creativity. (Sometimes you have to tear something down before you can build...)

I'm getting too philosophical here.

Back to the point:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I also think I understand the women I have had contact with. They are simply people who want to be appreciated, excited, loved. They like to be interested as much as interesting, they(women) want what we want(men) to be happy. That doesn't seem like alot to ask, nor hard to figure out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. It isn't a lot to ask - but it may be harder to figure out through the clouds around our own perception. We see things through our personal filters of emotion, bias, morality, philosophy, religion, knowledge, experience, and a myriad other very individualized experiences. Thus - men like you who express a willingness to see the simplicity in a matter we as humans make complex - are rare.

Thanks for the post!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2000 1:40 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
We need both -both exist - both create a conflict that brings forth more creativity - if we let it.


Yin and Yang, Lori. If we let it, it will be our rudder.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2000 3:32 pm 
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I don't mind being "picked on," Allen -- makes me feel wanted Image!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Never before have I seen so many men call women assholes, and vice versa as I have in the last ten years. It is epidemic with the appearance we are in a cesspool of hate. There are plenty of decent people, it just gets more difficult to find them.

I agree with you. I just read an article in the WSJ about the next trend that the ACME Shirt Co. out of NYC started. Appaprently, teen girls are ordering shirts by the droves that say "Boys Lie" ... "Boys Make Nice Pets" ... "Boys Dont Know ..." you get the picture.

When asked by the WSJ why they don't make shirts that ridicule girls, the owner replied, "We can't do that ... there would be too many upset parents and organizations."

I was very upset after reading this article. I don't understand that why as a culture or people we must feel better about who we are by putting someone else down. We are not respecting each other. And, I have been guilty now and then of contributing to this as well. No more ...

The way I see it, we can either tear each other down or build each other up. I agree with Lori, the martial arts teaches respect. And I, too, like the small courtesies we can give each other.

I needed to buy a new pair of shoes yesterday. Nowadays, shoe salespeople don't help you on/off with your shoes and check your fit. The sales man brought out every pair imaginable that I might be interested it (a dream come true!), and when he noticed I was struggling putting the shoe on my right foot, he asked if he could help .. was I in pain? I explained briefly about a "knee injury" and then he proceeded to help me with on/off of every shoe and in the end even retied my tennis shoes, because he thought I might have trouble bending over. (I did buy a pair of shoes from him and intend on letting his management know of his extraordinary service.)

As evident by my rantings ... I believe we are all starved for a little kindness ... as the old song goes "Try a little tenderness..."

------------------
In Beauty,

Jackie


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