The Soft Touch

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Tue Nov 28, 2000 4:19 am

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020Downtown_001127_basictraining_feature.html

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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/

Hugh · Post by **Hugh** » Wed Nov 29, 2000 10:01 pm

A fascinating discussion along these same lines may be found in the book, "Breaking Out: VMI and the Coming of Women" by Laura Fairchild Brodie. This is an oral history of the Rat Year (Freshman Year) of the first class containing women at the Virginia Military Institute in Lexington, Virginia. She neither whitewashes nor damns the school, but she does give a very bright picture of the Superintendent, Josiah Bunting. I knew Si Bunting when I was a Rat down there in 1960-1961 when he was a Third Classman. He was an English Major and I was a History Major and we were both invited over to the quarters of Col. Herbert N. Dillard, Chairman of the English Department, along with all of the other Liberal Artist majors, for a coffee and cookie reception on Friday nights. The purpose was to let the Rats relax out of the Ratline and meet with the Upperclassmen on a social basis. Bunting was one of the most remarkable men I met down there. In any case, Brodie seems to agree with my appraisal of him. She has some VERY interesting things to say about the debates over the physical standards to be met by the women as compared to the physical standards to be met by the men at VMI. The combat veterans were for lessening the pull-up requirement as they thought it irrelevant to combat, while the other women on the committee planning for going coed were all for maintaining the standard since they had busted their butts to make it. They had a sort of macho feeling of "If we can do it, so can they." You can read the book to see how they worked it out. The book is just packed with interesting bits such as the young woman on her way home for Christmas break who stopped with her family at a rest stop along the Interstate Highway only to be attacked by an irate old lady in the rest room who saw only her uniform and very short hair and assumed that she was a young man! One of the issues had been that VMI had insisted on the women Rats having very short haircuts. But some of the young women had gone them one better and, along with some of their Brother Rats, had shaved their heads! The school administration was horrified, the Cadet Corps was delighted, and I was heartily amused.

I do recommend the book, as I think that it was very informative and very enjoyable. It was also very unpredictable in its directions, which is part of what made it so enjoyable.

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Walk in the Light, Hugh
hughf_us@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by Hugh (edited November 29, 2000).]

Hugh · Post by **Hugh** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 4:15 pm

It is disappointing that nobody else has seen fit to comment on this thread. I thought that the article was rather misogynist in its tone, which was why I posted the reference to the book on VMI, which was, BTW, written by an avowed feminist, which discussed the question of fitness tests being gender equalized in a very fair manner. I am sorry that that this has caought nobody's attention.

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Walk in the Light, Hugh
hughf_us@yahoo.com

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:00 pm

There have been an awful lot of good start-up posts in the different threads across GEM's forums and not too many have picked up the ball and run with them. Either a lot of readers and contributors are burnt out else Christmas is prime-time on their minds.

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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/

Hugh · Post by **Hugh** » Tue Dec 05, 2000 10:44 pm

Well, Allen, since this is a subject of ineterest to you, you might try the book. I really enjoyed it and recommend it. It is not a hatchet job, VMI has it on their website, or they did. And it is not a whitewash either, she really nails them when they deserve it, but she is not unsympathetic to their peculiarities. All I can say is, "Do not go into the book thinking of VMI as West Point South or as Citadel moved to Virginia. It is its own creature and damned proud of it!"

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Walk in the Light, Hugh
hughf_us@yahoo.com

Lori · Post by **Lori** » Thu Dec 14, 2000 2:41 am

Hello Hugh-san,

Thank you for posting your thoughtful review here on this page.

I've been away from the forums for some time or I would have answered you sooner.

The book intrigues me - and I am adding it to my reading list - and will have to add it to my page as soon as I get an html editor installed.

Thank you again... appreciate the interest - and the information. There are so many books out there that a review like yours can really help out limited book budgets like mine make informed decisions about where to spend the hard earned $$$!

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Lori
Forum Recommended/Reviewed Books

Hugh · Post by **Hugh** » Mon Dec 18, 2000 6:19 pm

Lori, an interesting counterpoint to "Breaking Out" would be "In the Men's House" by Carol Barkalow, then a Captain in the U.S. Army. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0425132692/qid=977163075/sr=1-9/103-2673280-8969442
It is currently out of print, but you might find it in used book stores. Barkalow was in the first class of women at West POint and she tells a fascinating story of her years there and her first few years in hte Regular Army as a career officer. I thought it a very good book.

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Walk in the Light, Hugh
hughf_us@yahoo.com

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:33 pm

All these things [changing roles of men and women, and how they interact and react to them] are of interest to me, Hugh.

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Allen Moulton from http://www.ury2k.com/

Hugh · Post by **Hugh** » Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:47 pm

I apologize, Allen, I am so used to being the only man on many of these boards who expresses interests of this kind that I tend to forget that there are others out there. I do welcome you when I find you, however.

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Walk in the Light, Hugh
hughf_us@yahoo.com

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:32 pm

Hello Hugh,
Apology? Woah! No apology required or desired, Hugh. You and I both think alike on wishing others would get more involved in these forums.

I scan many newspapers every day and read what I consider important to me. I could write about some of these significant articles subjectively, or post the links to the URL as I do. If I chose to start writing more than I do already, other priorities suffer. Therefore, many of my responses as well as initial posts are terse and to the point. I at least disburse the info that may not find its way into the physical newspaper or is well-hidden, and/or gets removed from cyber headlines shortly after it is published because of reasons I can only guess at. Visitors read those links even if they don't respond.

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Allen Moulton from http://www.ury2k.com/

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:52 am

Hi guys. I followed the ABC segment with great interest and enjoyed the final event today. Actually I was surprised at how easy the initial fitness test was for the men as well as the women. These are young people who struggle through a pull up. Ugh! I was even more surprised by the final fitness test.

Regarding different requirements for men and women, my feeling is that the requirements should be the same for anyone that wants to go into combat. I was somehow involved in a spirited discussion on that subject not long ago with a smallish female naval officer and a couple of large infantry Marine officers. The bottom line is who would you want in that foxhole with you if wounded, in a firefight, carrying a 90 pound machine gun and two cans of ammo, hand-to-hand combat......

Personally, I was disappointed with VMI's decision to go co-ed. I'm not an alum but believe some things are sacred.

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited December 18, 2000).]

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 3:29 am

I'd like to see segregated units instead of integrated ones. Here's why...

Sex!

Can't get away from it. No matter what.

Also, for some reason, many groups of women want to prove they are better than men. The corrolary is that men never try to prove they are better than woman. Now, a separate fighting core of women, or even women-only ships would be terrific for both sexes. I can honestly say a women's-only nuclear sub or women's-only aircraft carrier would be amongst the best in the fleet. Why? Circularly returning to the first sentence of this paragraph, women are out to prove themselves.

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Allen Moulton from http://www.ury2k.com/

Lori · Post by **Lori** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 5:02 am

Only 3 pushups to qualify? And 10 to graduate? Give me a break! I could do that even with my spinal cord injury for crying out loud. (But since I don't want to end up paralyzed - I don't - but I could!) Granted - I couldn't always do that - but once I decided to make some kind of physical training a regular part of living - pushups became a part of the routine. Three??? For a soldier?

I hope that doesn't sound too pretentious - but it just seems that with all the screaming about equality - a requirement of three pushups just seems - well - a bit ridiculous.

My feeling on this are exactly that - my feelings. I base my opinion on my own gut reaction to what I've read, experienced, seen, been taught, and feel in my heart. I've written them a few times - but on this thread they apply like this:

1) I don't believe women should be forced (drafted) into combat. Reason: biological differences - physical strain, limitations, monthly cycles, possiblities of bearing children or having that ability reduced or even forced in a prisoner situation... I have many reasons for this opinion.

2) I DO believe women should be allowed to fight if they so desire. Reason: some women are born warriors - fierce fighters and ferocious adversaries.

3) On the fighting scene: The point about who can pull another soldier out of a foxhole is carries a LOT of weight. No pun intended. A slight build 5'0 woman will certainly have a hard time pulling a 6'4 man out of a foxhole if he's injured. Even with the cocktail coursing through her veins - and no matter how many pushups she can do to qualify for basic training (and at this point - it's not that many anyway!

) For this reason and many others (including "sex" as you brought up Allen-san) I'm a proponent of same sex fighting units. A platoon of fighting women - scary thought. Think about it. We had them for different ethnic backgrounds - why not for gender? Gender is a bigger separator/bonder than race even in some ways! A group of woman trained together to fight together... could be amazing.

So - just my opinion. I"m not offering it asking for someone to prove me wrong or rip them up - it's just my take on things. Dissenting opinions and further discussion is of course always welcome!

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Lori
Forum Recommended/Reviewed Books

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:48 am

I'm with you all 1, 2, and 3 Lori. Fact the main US rifle, the M-16 is perfect weight for a woman.

Some women want to go out there and prove just how tough they are in terms of fighting and machoism. I think that the best way they can do that is to train and fight in groups of their own sex.

Mixed sexes, to me is not good. It can lead to a lot of emotional problems, especially when living in close quarters.

Now, I forgot about the pregnancy problem. I guess that would mean more medics and ... and ... no, no... Here comes the dirty "D" word -- diapers.

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Allen Moulton from http://www.ury2k.com/

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Wed Dec 20, 2000 12:37 am

Just read an article about women combatants, Lori. Starts with the two women sailor deaths aboard the USS Cole, generalizes, and then gives some specific numbers concerning military servicewomen. Thought you'd might like to read it.

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58342-2000Oct22.html

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Allen Moulton from http://www.ury2k.com/