Most of my background is Shorin-ryu. I started learning Ryukyu Kempo about 3 years ago and that's where I learned to put Small Circle Jujitsu into our techniques to make them more effective.
Just like the finger locks...they are good, but when you add the SCJ into it, then they become great!!
Becky
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beckyhaworth
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Dana Sheets
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On finger locks:
Becky, at one pont on the forum someone posted that while he and his training partner were going at it pretty hard - striking & grappling,etc, Person A got in a choke and Person B put on a finger lock to stop the choke. Person A chose to ignore the pain from the finger lock - and finished the choke until Person B tapped out. Person A went on to wonder about the wisdom of their choice to sacrifice a finger for the sake of training (it turned out the finger was only sprained but not broken) but was pleased that a finger lock didn't keep them from finishing the choke.
I also think Rory has mentioned before that he's seen finger locks break the finger but the perp keeps fighting. It is sometimes a question of painful vs. disabling techniques in a true self-defense situation.
I think they're very likely to work in dojo training because nobody (usually) wants to sacrfice a digit on a regular basis.
But under true agression - I doubt a finger lock would stop - my need to survive is greater than my need for 10 working fingers.
I'm not invalidating finger locks as a helping technique - but I think it's important to teach them along with alternative escapes.
Just some thoughts -
Dana
Becky, at one pont on the forum someone posted that while he and his training partner were going at it pretty hard - striking & grappling,etc, Person A got in a choke and Person B put on a finger lock to stop the choke. Person A chose to ignore the pain from the finger lock - and finished the choke until Person B tapped out. Person A went on to wonder about the wisdom of their choice to sacrifice a finger for the sake of training (it turned out the finger was only sprained but not broken) but was pleased that a finger lock didn't keep them from finishing the choke.
I also think Rory has mentioned before that he's seen finger locks break the finger but the perp keeps fighting. It is sometimes a question of painful vs. disabling techniques in a true self-defense situation.
I think they're very likely to work in dojo training because nobody (usually) wants to sacrfice a digit on a regular basis.
But under true agression - I doubt a finger lock would stop - my need to survive is greater than my need for 10 working fingers.
I'm not invalidating finger locks as a helping technique - but I think it's important to teach them along with alternative escapes.
Just some thoughts -
Dana
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turbotort2000
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womans self defense classes
Dana Sheets,
What, in your opinion, curriculm should be included in a self-defense class?
Also, what is your M.A. background--how long have you trained and who or what has been influencencial in your womans self-defense philosphy?
What, in your opinion, curriculm should be included in a self-defense class?
Also, what is your M.A. background--how long have you trained and who or what has been influencencial in your womans self-defense philosphy?
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Dana Sheets
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womans self defense classes
TBT2000
Oh good lord, what a question!!!
I'm honestly not qualified to answer. I am not certified to teach self-defense.
I have 4 years of judo, 5 years of Uechi-Ryu and I had an older brother to fight with and a Dad who was an marine that taught us stuff when we were kids.
So here goes:
Self Defense Class by Dana
8 meetings on saturdays
6 hours per meeting
meeting 1
Your Personal Space and why you have the right to defend it
Shouting 101 - it's OK to make noise
Shouting 102 - Using bad language on Bad people
10 tips to be safe (stuff like walking with your eyes up, keeping your keys in your hand when going to your car or your house, why you might want pepper spray, etc.)
They would be given a selection of articles to read and the following homeowrk:
Take a warm shower, when you're nice and relaxed, crank the shower all the way over to cold - when you feel your body start to seize up - YELL!!! This is practice against the rarely successfull deer in headlights defense.
We would have a "Bob" the punching bag shaped like a guy. And teach them the 6 techniques of the bulletman and let them hit Bob with them. But a very low pressure, low stress session.
Meeting 2:
Bulletman training level 1
you get taught 6 techniques and how to shout and deliver them at the same time.
Bulletmen attack but without verbal wolfing. Physical stuff only. No feedback given. Just give them the experience of someone attacking them and let them see how they do. No corrections given.
Eye contact exercise 101 - just standing and looking in the eyes
Eye contact exercise 102 - looking someone in the eyes and saying things like : leave me alone, quit bothering me, I don't want to talk to you, don't touch me. In a voice that means get the f*** back.
Eye contact 103 - similar to #2 execept now someone will say something unpleasant first and you will respond using the things you rehearsed in 102
Meeting 3
Verbal wolfing scenarios no physical attack.
There would be mini role plays of common situations
1) agressive guy in bar
2) agressive guy a private party
3) agressive stranger on the street during the day
4) agressive stranger in the street at night.
5) I'm out of ideas at the moment.
each role play would be followed up by debrief & suggestions on what could be done differently. Then the same character will role play again trying to incorporate the suggestions.
Meeting 4
Bulletman training #2
This time it's physical and it's verbal.
Going through the same format as the verbal one -- with debriefs between sessions and the same person doing the same scenario again trying to incorporate suggestions.
Meeting #5
Night of the living dead training
Verbal wolfing from bad guy not wearing pads - then the women move in slow motions to counter the physical attacks. they are allowed to target anywhere with any technique - this lets them see how what they did on the bulletman would look like on a guy without a suit. The mean face and loud shouts being disabling for many women. Of course, this would require a very highly skilled man to be the bad guy to be able to keep the scenarios real and for him to stay safe if the women over-react.
<hr>
I've got to go into a meeting. I'll post more later.
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 07, 2002).]
Oh good lord, what a question!!!
I'm honestly not qualified to answer. I am not certified to teach self-defense.
I have 4 years of judo, 5 years of Uechi-Ryu and I had an older brother to fight with and a Dad who was an marine that taught us stuff when we were kids.
So here goes:
Self Defense Class by Dana
8 meetings on saturdays
6 hours per meeting
meeting 1
Your Personal Space and why you have the right to defend it
Shouting 101 - it's OK to make noise
Shouting 102 - Using bad language on Bad people
10 tips to be safe (stuff like walking with your eyes up, keeping your keys in your hand when going to your car or your house, why you might want pepper spray, etc.)
They would be given a selection of articles to read and the following homeowrk:
Take a warm shower, when you're nice and relaxed, crank the shower all the way over to cold - when you feel your body start to seize up - YELL!!! This is practice against the rarely successfull deer in headlights defense.
We would have a "Bob" the punching bag shaped like a guy. And teach them the 6 techniques of the bulletman and let them hit Bob with them. But a very low pressure, low stress session.
Meeting 2:
Bulletman training level 1
you get taught 6 techniques and how to shout and deliver them at the same time.
Bulletmen attack but without verbal wolfing. Physical stuff only. No feedback given. Just give them the experience of someone attacking them and let them see how they do. No corrections given.
Eye contact exercise 101 - just standing and looking in the eyes
Eye contact exercise 102 - looking someone in the eyes and saying things like : leave me alone, quit bothering me, I don't want to talk to you, don't touch me. In a voice that means get the f*** back.
Eye contact 103 - similar to #2 execept now someone will say something unpleasant first and you will respond using the things you rehearsed in 102
Meeting 3
Verbal wolfing scenarios no physical attack.
There would be mini role plays of common situations
1) agressive guy in bar
2) agressive guy a private party
3) agressive stranger on the street during the day
4) agressive stranger in the street at night.
5) I'm out of ideas at the moment.
each role play would be followed up by debrief & suggestions on what could be done differently. Then the same character will role play again trying to incorporate the suggestions.
Meeting 4
Bulletman training #2
This time it's physical and it's verbal.
Going through the same format as the verbal one -- with debriefs between sessions and the same person doing the same scenario again trying to incorporate suggestions.
Meeting #5
Night of the living dead training
Verbal wolfing from bad guy not wearing pads - then the women move in slow motions to counter the physical attacks. they are allowed to target anywhere with any technique - this lets them see how what they did on the bulletman would look like on a guy without a suit. The mean face and loud shouts being disabling for many women. Of course, this would require a very highly skilled man to be the bad guy to be able to keep the scenarios real and for him to stay safe if the women over-react.
<hr>
I've got to go into a meeting. I'll post more later.
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 07, 2002).]
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Dana Sheets
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womans self defense classes
Meeting #6
Being aware of and using your environment.
We'd talk about listening to that little voice inside that tells you when a situation is going to get bad, or go from bad to worse.
We'd talk about learning to use what's on hand -- including:
Cars - to use as an obstacle. Also the idea of not getting out of your car just because somebody told you to.
Walls - I learned this need little defense move from a friend that worked in a prison. If they back you up against a wall you grab onto their ears and fall on your but. You break your tail bone, but you slam their head about a foot into the wall.
Purses, keys, pens, plastic grocery bags, things you might have on hand and how you might use them.
Lesson #7
Taking what we learned in lesson #6 and playing out scenarios with men in bulletmen suits doing wolfing. Same format of role-play, debrief for improvement, and re-role-play the attacks.
Lesson #8.
If I had the money:
This would be a VR simulation. Yes, virtual reality. I'm sure the Army can do it.
You'd put on your goggles and the suit and then you'd be run through different surprize situations. Several in a row.
It would be a culmination of all the other lessons.
Everyone would be scored. If anybody's score is below a certain cut-off point they would invited to re-take the course at no cost.
Everybody else gets to go through graduation.
If I was really doing this I'd have twice a year "refresher" 1 day seminars for graduates only -- where we would re-do lesson #7. Random attacks by bulletmen using whatever you can in your environment.
I guess that about does it. Remember this is off the top of my head - so I'd love to hear suggestions, comments, changes, things I have flat out missed or gotten wrong.
thanks,
Dana
Being aware of and using your environment.
We'd talk about listening to that little voice inside that tells you when a situation is going to get bad, or go from bad to worse.
We'd talk about learning to use what's on hand -- including:
Cars - to use as an obstacle. Also the idea of not getting out of your car just because somebody told you to.
Walls - I learned this need little defense move from a friend that worked in a prison. If they back you up against a wall you grab onto their ears and fall on your but. You break your tail bone, but you slam their head about a foot into the wall.
Purses, keys, pens, plastic grocery bags, things you might have on hand and how you might use them.
Lesson #7
Taking what we learned in lesson #6 and playing out scenarios with men in bulletmen suits doing wolfing. Same format of role-play, debrief for improvement, and re-role-play the attacks.
Lesson #8.
If I had the money:
This would be a VR simulation. Yes, virtual reality. I'm sure the Army can do it.
You'd put on your goggles and the suit and then you'd be run through different surprize situations. Several in a row.
It would be a culmination of all the other lessons.
Everyone would be scored. If anybody's score is below a certain cut-off point they would invited to re-take the course at no cost.
Everybody else gets to go through graduation.
If I was really doing this I'd have twice a year "refresher" 1 day seminars for graduates only -- where we would re-do lesson #7. Random attacks by bulletmen using whatever you can in your environment.
I guess that about does it. Remember this is off the top of my head - so I'd love to hear suggestions, comments, changes, things I have flat out missed or gotten wrong.
thanks,
Dana
womans self defense classes
Dana,
Ever think about a defensive scenario from a toilet seat?
I handled a murder case once in Boston, where a woman was assaulted and killed while sitting on the toilet in a bus depot’s restroom.
Found dead in blood and excrement. Pantyhose down to the ankles restricting her mobility.
Not a pretty picture.
How to deal with such vulnerable moments?
------------------
Van Canna
Ever think about a defensive scenario from a toilet seat?
I handled a murder case once in Boston, where a woman was assaulted and killed while sitting on the toilet in a bus depot’s restroom.
Found dead in blood and excrement. Pantyhose down to the ankles restricting her mobility.
Not a pretty picture.
How to deal with such vulnerable moments?
------------------
Van Canna
womans self defense classes
Becky
I'm with you on the effectiveness of fingerlocks. As Dana pointed out some people may continue fighting through broken fingers but people also fight through punches, kicks and dislocations. Like most techniques fingerlocks have their time and place.
Check out Ed Melaugh at New England Small Circle Jiu Jitsu one of Prof. Jay's top men. Ed's application of these locks is second to none.
------------------
J Deluca
I'm with you on the effectiveness of fingerlocks. As Dana pointed out some people may continue fighting through broken fingers but people also fight through punches, kicks and dislocations. Like most techniques fingerlocks have their time and place.
Check out Ed Melaugh at New England Small Circle Jiu Jitsu one of Prof. Jay's top men. Ed's application of these locks is second to none.
------------------
J Deluca
womans self defense classes
Dana:
Shorter classes seem to have less attrition. Again, it's a question of what the students want, expect and are willing to do. My experience has been that classes of 1-2 hours duration seem to be better received, although limit progression through tactics.
Seems some training on falling is important. Working on surviving the initial rush and attack. Front rolls, back rolls, side banana falls, etc. and getting quickly upright. Of course then working on escapes and best defense if you do fall and get grappled has to be in the mix as well. Use of available common objects as weapons is good too to get guys off - clutched key to vital area, brush handle to kidney, etc.
Also, since students of this training may not be involved in regular defensive tactics or martial art training, teaching techniques around the natural primal reactions might be best. The natural "flinch" with raising of the hands, can be molded into a better defense of arms up, elbows tucked in and learning NOT to close eyes or look away and block by turning into the attack.
Also, teaching basic stances and coming to balance in preparation for an encounter. Threat recognition is important. Awareness training, 2nd crime scene, freezing, flight response, etc. should all be covered.
The overcoming of the freeze factor from woofing is helpful, but probably only for the core student. ALso, breaking through the comfort zone of close contact of grappling,
etc. is a major point.
Keeping the strikes to a core minimum is good too. Palm heel strikes, instep stomp, elbow to solar plexis, etc.
Not having the luxury of the body suit, I can't comment on that except to say there can be effective training without it, although it would sure be nice to have.
JohnC
Shorter classes seem to have less attrition. Again, it's a question of what the students want, expect and are willing to do. My experience has been that classes of 1-2 hours duration seem to be better received, although limit progression through tactics.
Seems some training on falling is important. Working on surviving the initial rush and attack. Front rolls, back rolls, side banana falls, etc. and getting quickly upright. Of course then working on escapes and best defense if you do fall and get grappled has to be in the mix as well. Use of available common objects as weapons is good too to get guys off - clutched key to vital area, brush handle to kidney, etc.
Also, since students of this training may not be involved in regular defensive tactics or martial art training, teaching techniques around the natural primal reactions might be best. The natural "flinch" with raising of the hands, can be molded into a better defense of arms up, elbows tucked in and learning NOT to close eyes or look away and block by turning into the attack.
Also, teaching basic stances and coming to balance in preparation for an encounter. Threat recognition is important. Awareness training, 2nd crime scene, freezing, flight response, etc. should all be covered.
The overcoming of the freeze factor from woofing is helpful, but probably only for the core student. ALso, breaking through the comfort zone of close contact of grappling,
etc. is a major point.
Keeping the strikes to a core minimum is good too. Palm heel strikes, instep stomp, elbow to solar plexis, etc.
Not having the luxury of the body suit, I can't comment on that except to say there can be effective training without it, although it would sure be nice to have.
JohnC
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Dana Sheets
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
womans self defense classes
Honestly, no. I haven't.
There was a terrible film a few years back with Sigourney Weaver as a woman with agoraphobia being stalked. "Copycat" I think was the title.
Anyway - at one point the stalker attacks Weaver as she's covering the toilet seat with toilet paper. He reaches over the door of the stall with a wire or a belt to strangle her. I don't remember how she got out it in the film.
But I'd be happy to add bathrooms to the scenario list. I particularly hate the ones have have two sets of doors going in. Too many obstacles to get out quickly and too much sound coverage.
There was a guy shot by his car at the apartment complex across the street this week. Cops say robbery was the motive.
So now you can get the security in my building to escort you to your car if you feel unsafe. Sigh....wonton violence=uneeded stress
I should probably add stairwells to the list, along with parking garages and elevators.
There was a terrible film a few years back with Sigourney Weaver as a woman with agoraphobia being stalked. "Copycat" I think was the title.
Anyway - at one point the stalker attacks Weaver as she's covering the toilet seat with toilet paper. He reaches over the door of the stall with a wire or a belt to strangle her. I don't remember how she got out it in the film.
But I'd be happy to add bathrooms to the scenario list. I particularly hate the ones have have two sets of doors going in. Too many obstacles to get out quickly and too much sound coverage.
There was a guy shot by his car at the apartment complex across the street this week. Cops say robbery was the motive.
So now you can get the security in my building to escort you to your car if you feel unsafe. Sigh....wonton violence=uneeded stress
I should probably add stairwells to the list, along with parking garages and elevators.
womans self defense classes
"Take a warm shower, when you're nice and relaxed, crank the shower all the way over to cold - when you feel your body start to seize up - YELL!!! This is practice against the rarely successfull deer in headlights defense."
Were you being serious or sarcastic? Does this actually work to train you to react? Either way, it sounds like a pretty neat idea... in a twisted, masochistic kind of way. I'm trying it.
Were you being serious or sarcastic? Does this actually work to train you to react? Either way, it sounds like a pretty neat idea... in a twisted, masochistic kind of way. I'm trying it.
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Dana Sheets
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
womans self defense classes
John,
I agree that grappling is an important element to add. It should probably go early on so women can get over their worries and nerves and get down to business.
I don't know about the shorter classes. Again, this was my dream class - so maybe market pressures would force the shorter time period. But I don't know what the attrition rate would be if you ended the class over more time. Folks are busy - and you'd have to fit the class in between soccer, school stuff, family travel, etc.
The flinch reflex would be part of session #2. Because they would have found out about it in the cold shower.
<hr>
TSD guy,
And the cold show thing is actually serious. Though you feel like an idiot when you do it.
Many, many women when attacked - don't make a sound. At least, this is what was related to me by a self-defense instructor many years ago.
Some women simply freeze up. That freezing up feeling is very similar to what your body does if you suddenly jump into cold water. Think of how many people who jump in a cold pool give a good yell of surprise??? It's the body's way of getting things moving. The startle response is to have a sharp inhale with a lifting of the hands to protect the head.
Some women can't get past this feeling.
By yelling it forces them to breathe OUT, in a big way. Helping to move past the initial startle response.
Women have fewer hangups these days to yelling than they did a generation ago. But the shower provides a warm, safe, private environment where the woman can feel the "freezing up" and then have a plan of yelling to get out of it. That way, when you ask them to yell in class they've already done it, and they also have had a small feeling of what it's like to freeze up in fear.
I know it's a little silly - and you might want to warn your family before you do it. My family has a cabin on the north shore of lake Superior in Minnesota. When you turn the water to cold there you're getting straight lake water at 35 degrees. Believe me - when the water is really cold - yelling is a relief.
If your shower doesn't get cold quickly the exercise won't work.
Dana
I agree that grappling is an important element to add. It should probably go early on so women can get over their worries and nerves and get down to business.
I don't know about the shorter classes. Again, this was my dream class - so maybe market pressures would force the shorter time period. But I don't know what the attrition rate would be if you ended the class over more time. Folks are busy - and you'd have to fit the class in between soccer, school stuff, family travel, etc.
The flinch reflex would be part of session #2. Because they would have found out about it in the cold shower.
<hr>
TSD guy,
And the cold show thing is actually serious. Though you feel like an idiot when you do it.
Many, many women when attacked - don't make a sound. At least, this is what was related to me by a self-defense instructor many years ago.
Some women simply freeze up. That freezing up feeling is very similar to what your body does if you suddenly jump into cold water. Think of how many people who jump in a cold pool give a good yell of surprise??? It's the body's way of getting things moving. The startle response is to have a sharp inhale with a lifting of the hands to protect the head.
Some women can't get past this feeling.
By yelling it forces them to breathe OUT, in a big way. Helping to move past the initial startle response.
Women have fewer hangups these days to yelling than they did a generation ago. But the shower provides a warm, safe, private environment where the woman can feel the "freezing up" and then have a plan of yelling to get out of it. That way, when you ask them to yell in class they've already done it, and they also have had a small feeling of what it's like to freeze up in fear.
I know it's a little silly - and you might want to warn your family before you do it. My family has a cabin on the north shore of lake Superior in Minnesota. When you turn the water to cold there you're getting straight lake water at 35 degrees. Believe me - when the water is really cold - yelling is a relief.
If your shower doesn't get cold quickly the exercise won't work.
Dana
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turbotort2000
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- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Sacramento Calfiornia USA
womans self defense classes
Dana, Oh good lord, what a answer!!!
Just kidding. Wow! you really thought it through. On the verbal section of the class---have you ever taught, or seen a class taught addressing verbal self-defense and if so, what were your sucess stories and what were you challenges?
John C. Tell us about your program. John what is your m.a. background?
Just kidding. Wow! you really thought it through. On the verbal section of the class---have you ever taught, or seen a class taught addressing verbal self-defense and if so, what were your sucess stories and what were you challenges?
John C. Tell us about your program. John what is your m.a. background?
womans self defense classes
That was the most unpleasant shower I've had in a while 
.
.womans self defense classes
My "program" was an attempt to try and develop a community education self-defense class at a small community college in Florida in conjunction with the defensive tactics instructor of the Corrections Department, for the college, the community at large and a special program at the college for women.
It has been going slowly. I have the luxury of access to the DT room, or the gym, the DT instructor to cofacilitate as needed and the endorsement of the college. It's just finding the right time, the right program format, the right students .... it's a work in progress.
My M.A. background began @6 years ago and has mainly been focused in uechi-ryu karate. I have also been trained in defensive tactics, verbal and physical de-escalation and control techniques, judo, and Wing Chun.
I work in the juvenile corrections field.
JohnC
It has been going slowly. I have the luxury of access to the DT room, or the gym, the DT instructor to cofacilitate as needed and the endorsement of the college. It's just finding the right time, the right program format, the right students .... it's a work in progress.
My M.A. background began @6 years ago and has mainly been focused in uechi-ryu karate. I have also been trained in defensive tactics, verbal and physical de-escalation and control techniques, judo, and Wing Chun.
I work in the juvenile corrections field.
JohnC
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Dana Sheets
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
womans self defense classes
"physical de-escalation and control techniques"
John - in your experience do those techniques work well if the person you are trying to control outmatches you physically? I ask because it has been related more than once on this site that it usually takes several LEOs to take down a person who does not wish to go down.
And the control techniques you're taught -- are they to be used individually or as a team? My worry in presenting some MArts techniques in a self-defense format is that they take very advanced timing to be able to be used effectively. It would be great to be a bunch of control/submission technqiues that work well in the worst of situations.
thanks,
Dana
John - in your experience do those techniques work well if the person you are trying to control outmatches you physically? I ask because it has been related more than once on this site that it usually takes several LEOs to take down a person who does not wish to go down.
And the control techniques you're taught -- are they to be used individually or as a team? My worry in presenting some MArts techniques in a self-defense format is that they take very advanced timing to be able to be used effectively. It would be great to be a bunch of control/submission technqiues that work well in the worst of situations.
thanks,
Dana
