womans self defense classes

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beckyhaworth
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womans self defense classes

Post by beckyhaworth »

Hi Dana,

I never use finger locks by themselves...always put something else with them....you can only expect them to work to a certain degree or time depending on the situation.

Sometimes they are more effective than others because of the location of the attack....

If the finger lock will get their attention and allow me to finish the attack with either a strike to the head, or a kick to SP 6 on the ankle.

That is my favorite point anyways and I will always go for it when I get a chance.

There is also a varitey of ways to do finger locks...I always add the small circle into them and that makes for a very effective technique...you can also do cuticle techiniques too. Those are damn painful!!

Becky

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dana Sheets:
On finger locks:

Becky, at one pont on the forum someone posted that while he and his training partner were going at it pretty hard - striking & grappling,etc, Person A got in a choke and Person B put on a finger lock to stop the choke. Person A chose to ignore the pain from the finger lock - and finished the choke until Person B tapped out. Person A went on to wonder about the wisdom of their choice to sacrifice a finger for the sake of training (it turned out the finger was only sprained but not broken) but was pleased that a finger lock didn't keep them from finishing the choke.

I also think Rory has mentioned before that he's seen finger locks break the finger but the perp keeps fighting. It is sometimes a question of painful vs. disabling techniques in a true self-defense situation.

I think they're very likely to work in dojo training because nobody (usually) wants to sacrfice a digit on a regular basis.

But under true agression - I doubt a finger lock would stop - my need to survive is greater than my need for 10 working fingers.

I'm not invalidating finger locks as a helping technique - but I think it's important to teach them along with alternative escapes.

Just some thoughts -
Dana
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
turbotort2000
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womans self defense classes

Post by turbotort2000 »

beckyhaworth

Give us one or maybe two finger locks you teach in a self defense class and walk us through it like you were teaching us. For instance, is the guy grabbing your hair and you mash his hand into your head and try to peel a finger or after a wrist release do you push the forarm into the fingers while pulling his arm forward with your other hand. ect, ect. It will give us something to look at if we get a technical prespective from you.
JohnC
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womans self defense classes

Post by JohnC »

Dana:

There are various training formats out there of similar ilk, that are geared to train workers how to defuse an aggressive or violent kid. In a sense it is really a "use of force" continuum, but that has been slow in coming in the juvenile field, but things are beginning to change.

The problem is that the techniques are not regularly practiced, there were too few drills and the only time you got to hone your skills was in the actual "take down" events, except for your annual training update. Obviously, there was something wrong with this picture.

BTW, You are essentially correct, that these control techniques were initially intended for larger adults to control smaller youth without causing harm to either. These include the "basket hold", which is basically hugging the kid from the rear, walking back to a wall and sinking to the floor, while using verbal de-escalation scripts. Also the straight arm bar with 2 workers on either side of the kid, etc.

But, as you point out, if you didn't apply them just right, really use the 3 essential ingredients of K. Judo(Capture space and get close, break balance and execute properly) you ended up in a big mess on the floor.

As kids became larger and more aggressive, these techniques were continued, but were truly a misfit and did eventually evolve to a team take down concept. However, one person has to initiate and execute the control technique, then others rush in the add holding power.

Now, the need for a greater array of defensive tactics has been realized, with more training of pressure points, wrist and joint locks, etc. So things are getting better.

Probably, the best part of this training is how to spot the precursors to an event. Also, the verbal de-escalation or verbal defense of how to nip things before they take off. There are some good neurolinguistic tips that are effective. Also, the training on awareness and staying focused.

One of the toughest, most effective people I know in this field is a tiny woman not more than 5'tall and 85 lbs. soaking wet. She rarely has to resort to DT, but uses her firm voice, self-assured poise, and wisdom to control thugs twice her size. She's always light years ahead of things, anticipating and so not surprised by what goes down.


Gotta run,


JohnC
turbotort2000
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womans self defense classes

Post by turbotort2000 »

Lots of stuff on technical applications, but what is that will motivate a woman to fight back against someone who is bigger, faster and stronger? Is there an issue of woman feeling helpless and thus compling and if so, how have yall overcome that obsticle in training?
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Dana Sheets
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bump

Post by Dana Sheets »

for current women's SD Discussion - page 2 has my outline of my dream SD class.
Kevin Mackie
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Post by Kevin Mackie »

I've been following this thread and have only seen one minor reference to pepper spray, (by Dana), as a means of defense. I'm helping my daughter get her class "B" Massachusetts gun permit for her to carry mace for personal protection. A firearms ID would be good enough but for a little extra effort, I'm making sure she has more options available if she wants.

She's headed to college in Boston next fall and I want her prepared for anything in the street, public transportation etc.

Any thoughts about carrying pepper spray? Is it effective? Is proper training required/recommended?
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Ya know...I really don't know much about it. The police like to use it to subdue somebody they already have in custody. I used to carry it in college. Never used it - but it gave me the feeling that I'd be able to do something. (Mind you - I was also training judo at the time and viewed the pepper spray as a back up to just getting the hell out of there)

Especially after the FAST training and looking at loss of fine motor coordination...I dunno if you could even get the think to work right...but it might be really good for putting off a drunk in a parking lot or something.

I hope somebody else can chime in on this. I've oftened wondered if pepper spray in general is just a great marketing effort to make money off of scared women and the people who love them.
2Green
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Post by 2Green »

This brings up old memories...
Back in '82 I pepper-sprayed a guy with "dog-stop", a Capcaicin spray for postmen. He was harrassing a fellow band-mate and grabbed a bottle when I intervened. I had the spray in my camera-bag and hosed him.
He dropped like a stone. He was helpless.
Months later we met under a reconciliation meeting. He admitted he was being a drunk a$$h0le who meant no harm, but he said he would rather I would have shot him than used that stuff.
This stuff was 6%, I think the human version is about 1.5%.
Luckily, I'm not posting this from jail.
I never carried it again, and the nightmares abated some years later.

NM
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AlanL
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Post by AlanL »

Kevin Mackie wrote: Any thoughts about carrying pepper spray? Is it effective? Is proper training required/recommended?
Kevin

Good info previous thread "Pepper Weapon". Here is some of the thread.
Van Canna wrote:From another forum:

Good stuff includes Freeze +P (I am told) and Fox 5.3. I carry Fox 5.3.

You measure good pepper spray by the Scoville Heat Units (SHU) and nothing else. The "percentage" only tells you how LONG it will have effects, not how INTENSE. You want to go for 2 million SHU or more.

If you stick with Freeze or Fox 5.3 (5.3 MILLION SHU!!!) you will be fine. I get Fox 5.3 from Galls, FYI, and it is NOT expensive. I carry pepper spray more often than a gun (due to legal reasons) and I do not hesitate much to use the pepper spray, whereas any prudent person really thinks twice before firing a gun in defense due to the legal ramifications.


In the LAPD Police Academy, the experienced cops that teach there say that many felons are more afraid of pepper spray than a gun, because they know that you will use it, and that people who have experienced both say that pepper spray actually hurts more than getting shot, and pepper spray is more debilitating.

If you can't see, can't breath, and your whole face is on fire, you aren't going to be very effective at much of anything, whereas people that get shot often don't even realize it right away.

Once again, you have to use the GOOD stuff or you are wasting your time and risking your life. The cheap pepper sprays may just only piss the guy off and make him more violent.

And, the better pepper sprays are not really any more expensive than the cheap ones, you just have to search them out and know what you are looking for.

People use the word "mace" as a generic term for any type or brand of aerosol chemical weapon. They use it much in the same way as saying Kleenex for any facial tissue.

Shop wisely because not all personal defense sprays are created equally. Some people choose them because OC can be carried in some places that guns are not allowed. Others just want more options.

The single biggest misconception about aerosol chemical weapons is the "percentage" of O.C. (Oleoresin Capsicum) like 5% or 10% . A person might be led to believe the 10% formula is better than a lower one like 5%. The higher percentages make it last LONGER because there is more pepper in that formula. They do not make it HOTTER and heat is what makes it effective.


Let's say brand "A" uses a very low grade of pepper and makes the formula 10%. Brand "F" uses the highest quality peppers available and makes the formula 2%. The only way to determine how good either of them might be is to check the label for Scoville Heat Units.

Heat is what makes O.C. effective. Heat of O.C. is measured by S.H.U.s (Scoville Heat Units). In my opinion, you should consider nothing less than 1 million S.H.U.s, for self protection or Law Enforcement work. Fox Labs International has a 2% formulation which decreases recovery time but it is 5.3 million S.H.U.s which makes it the hottest spray on the market.

The three physical effects that you want your formula to cause are a burning sensation of the contaminated skin, respiratory distress, and an involuntary eye closure. The burning sensation is the least important tactically.

The desired respiratory effect is to decrease the ability for the badguy breath enough to keep attacking you.

The involuntary eye closure is the most important tactically. The O.C. dries the fluids in the eye on contact and forces the person to shut their eyes. If the potential felon can¹t see you it will be more difficult to catch or kill you.


Most Personal Defense Sprays are available in Fog, Cone (sometimes called Mist), Stream and Foam. Each of these spray patterns has it¹s strong points.

Fog is the most effective delivery system because it is the most readily inhaled. It causes the most cross contamination onto unintended areas and is the easiest to blow back into your own face.

Cone has a ³shotgun² type pattern and is my personal favorite for general use. It has a more wind resistant delivery but still atomizes the OC well for inhalation. Steam is not inhaled as readily but has the greatest distance and even less likelihood of blowback.

Foam has an almost shaving cream type consistency. It is highly unlikely it will be blown back by wind and is the best choice for indoor use as it causes the least cross contamination. Foam however is the least effective because it is rarely
inhaled.


Some manufacturers would have you believe their product is superior to any other defensive option. Nothing works 100% of the time.

NOTHING. Not your shotgun, not your baton, not your brain. Do not fall into the trap of thinking your O.C. will handle anything that comes along. It will not. Beware of any company who says their spray is the greatest thing ever invented. I have seen demonstrations of people sprayed with pepper sprays and still attack. Goal oriented people. They are dangerous and you must remain vigilant.


You must also have a back-up plan. Just like going to your back-up gun if your primary becomes damaged or taken. If your OC doesn¹t work you need to be prepared to go to a higher level of force or be ready to run away.

Always keep in mind your self defense tools are likely to give lackluster performance when it comes down to it.

If you carry OC as a defensive option put some thought into it. Just like with your gun-holster-ammo combination. Police officers use the OC on their belt far more often than the gun beside it.

Consider which spray pattern and formulation will best suit your needs. Also consider placing several cans in strategic locations like in the car, at the office, by the front door and in your vest pocket.


Using OC isn¹t as complicated as shooting but you do need to practice with it. Many companies sell inert training units that will work for practice but I suggest just using a live can.

Practice like you would use it and think ahead and know which way the wind is blowing. If it blows back into your face have you really made yourself safer?


While on the topic of accidentally (or otherwise) being sprayed there are some simple guidelines you can follow to speed recovery along.

Water and lots of it will help immensely. If you have a non-oil based soap available (like Dawn or J&J baby shampoo) you should use it to wash the excess spray out of your hair and off your face.

Make sure to get it all so you don¹t get recontaminated later when you shower.

Never use salves or creams to ease the burning sensation. It will only trap the OC under the skin and cause blistering. Never remove another persons contact lenses, always let a medical professional take them out.


If you ever are forced to spray someone you should move afterward. Two or three one half second bursts will do it. If the face is covered it will make it no hotter to spray more and it could actually wash some off.

It should produce a reaction within three seconds of contact. If you do not get the desired effect go to your ³plan B².


Chemical Weapons can be a good choice for people who choose not to have a gun. They can also help us bridge the gap between no force and lethal force. If chosen and used correctly they can be a great asset to anyone who is worried about their personal safety.


Options For Personal Security offers the best chemical weapons course available anywhere and the only quality course open to non police and military. We open a lot of new tactical applications for this tool.
------------------
James Yeager http://www.OptionsForPersonalSecurity.com


Try here for Fox 5.3 http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/index.html


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited July 14, 2001).]
Alan
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

So for home invasion it would seem that pepper spray could be much more effective than a gun. It's not the what perp is looking out for. It's way more effective at dropping them, and you can use it around a corner and cover quite an area......
hmm.......
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RACastanet
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Post by RACastanet »

My thoughts on pepper spray...

Most of the sprays take a few seconds to really kick in. If you use it you need to get away fast. You have just really pissed someone off. My force continuum instructor allowed a female student to spray him in the face and eyes. After he simulated beating and choking her to death he fell to the ground red as a beat and in extreme discomfort. Remember, that was 'after' the beating.

Do not warn someone that you will spray it. All they need to do is cover their eyes or duck or something. Have it ready but unseen. Glasses will pretty much deflect it. It will burn the mouth and nose but only mildly irritate the eyes.

Do not use it in a closed area, ie inside your house, unless you are in a last ditch defense. You may disable yourself.

I've gotten a stong contact down wind of a spray and did not like it, however without direct contact it is pretty survivable. To that point, do not spray into the wind.

People can and do train on how to fight thru the stuff. Marine security guards must submit to it to show them they will survive and can continue to fight on.

All USMC martial arts instructors and trainers get heavily sprayed during workouts to get accustomed to it. I have watched them do this and keep on training. They look bad but keep going. One of the last tests for instructors is a long run thru serious terrain (effectionately known as the stamina run). With about a tenth of a mile to go, they must stop and be sprayed in the face. Then into the woods to face some serious attacks (Last of the Mohicans). One officer took it full to the face with his eyes open (you are allowed to close them) and finished. He was almost blind and very unhappy, but he finished.

Do not run and wash your face, most oc is oil based. It will not kill you. Find a place to curl up and in about 6 hours you will be fine.

Regarding practice, buy two and practice with one of them.

My instructor recommends MACE brand 'triple action'. It contains oc, tear gas and uv dye. If you miss the eyes, the tear gas will still be inhaled etc. That is very unpleasant as you immediately start to drown in your own snot (true from experience).

Spraying someone is an assault. When you are safe, call the police and tell them what happened.

I have yet to try the full face spray but probably will this summer. Also, Roy Bedard was talking about having a 'surviving pepper spray'. session this summer. Anyone game?

Oh, and as a last resort, spray yourself liberally. Again, it will not kill you but no one will want to touch you or get near you.

Regards, Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

Fascinating!

Thanks to Alan and Rich for all the info.

However - I'm still up in the air on the gun/vs pepper spray conversation. Now a pepper spray can with a little laser dot sight attached to it would be a great SD tool.

Also Rich - from what Alan posted - you don't know the strength of the OC that instructor used, nor the strength of the OC used by the Marines - I guess only the military could get away with doing a study on how quickly folks drop from different strength OCs. The NIH would never approve something like that.

Has anyone ever heard of somebody (non-police, non-military) who has sucessfully used pepper spray to fend off an offender?
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RACastanet
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Post by RACastanet »

A last note on pepper spray... On Wednesday the 16th I was up at Quantico and asked a young Marine who recently had to submit to pepper spray as part of his security force qualification what it was like and he stated "it was the worst day of my life".

I do not know the strength but is was no doubt mil-spec. Knowing how tough this kid is I'd say that his statement speaks well for the debilitating effect of OC.

Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Hey, Dana, my finger is all better now. :D
Thaws
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Post by Thaws »

I do not mean to dash good intentions, but most(not all) self defense classes involving empty hands for women are a facade. Against a committed, agressive attacker, the guy who really wants to hurt you, those knees to the groin, scratching the face, and any other strke is more likely to enrage the attacker more. The fact is that most women can't compete with strength against a male attacker, I think most will agree. So my point?
A KNIFE! Its the great equalizer. A robber or rapist could care less about your black belt or whatever, but access a knfe and show intent and the table is turned. If not ,then ones skill in slashing and thrusting will deterr the threat. Knives fear not size,or strength. Martial arts are great if you have 10,20,30, years to learn but untill then you need skills you can leave the class with and apply.Check out knifefighting.com, click the dagger(G) and then click AMOK!. Its the ultimate self defense for women. Tim
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