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 Post subject: Front kick...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:59 am 
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In reference to Bill's post:

Quote:
Rotation of the femurs (BOTH of them ) in the hip sockets. This prevents the "dipping" of the head and/or lifting of the heel of the support leg. It also can add energy to the motion. Ideally you can "cock the trigger" by overemphasizing the sanchin toe-turn-in. This IMO is why Uechika CAN BE masters of the kick off the front leg. It's the stored energy built in the sanchin stance!!


One thing you emphasized that really stuck with me, Bill, was that rotation of the standing foot that occurs with the rotation of the femurs....makes all the difference in the world as far as that whipping action to create the power (ie. that is toeing in with the standing foot before the kick to cock the trigger, then allowing the standing foot to rotate or pivot out and back with the kick afterward with the hip snapping action.

Does that make sense in words? You are so much better describing, Bill, than I am....technical engineering man that you are.

That is my take on a noticeable transition.

Regards,
Vicki

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:06 am 
Quote:
Rotation of the femurs (BOTH of them ) in the hip sockets. This prevents the "dipping" of the head and/or lifting of the heel of the support leg. It also can add energy to the motion. Ideally you can "cock the trigger" by overemphasizing the sanchin toe-turn-in. This IMO is why Uechika CAN BE masters of the kick off the front leg. It's the stored energy built in the sanchin stance!!


I do a front roundhouse/straight kick to the stomach exzactly this way , I drop the knee over and down with the direction of the coiled force using the arc to drive down penetrating into the stomach .... the downards arc really seems to rip in ....

I know words fail me ...

very valid power base though , Ive dropped some seriously big guys with this kick .

closing the lower qwa anyone ?


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 Post subject: Kicks, cont'd
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:11 am 
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Sure wish I could see the visuals along with the words.....I am one of those right-brained people that are more visually oriented.

When you do your front round house, Stryke, do you angle the foot in (almost touching the knee) before whipping the kick out?

Vicki

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:27 am 
yup angle the foot in and load the hip , This is really a variation kick , not a standard by any means , one of my oddball kicks .

Its a weird combination of roundhouse , straight kick , and back kick dynamics all in one .

Imagine a straight front kick snapped out straight , then imagine what would happen if you rotated the hips , kind of like a side kick that pivoted in rather than thrusting out , then taken a step further and the knee starts going down towards the floor like a Back kick , so the pivot is arching over and down into the stomach ......

If I get a chance i`ll tape it , sounds like nonsnese i know but it can be thrown in relatively short range with devestating penetration .

As for foot position If not kicking with the shin (most often) the proper Shotokan way is ball of the foot , I do this for this kick and for traditional work , I like it but many have trouble with the flexibility at first .

I personally dont like the instep method taught by many MA

Heh is hard to communicate with words ... generally all my front kicks come from the same position the knee being straight up in front kick position foot up and toes back ;) , the hips and variation come from there .

back kicks I can do the same but also have the variation Of Muai Thai style roundkick with more swing and momentum . depends on wether deception or power are called for , sparring tools ....


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:23 pm 
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Stryke

I believe I know exactly what you are talking about. Once you figure out how to use the hips in various ways, some of these variations just come to you.

It's a great variation because of the angle it comes in. Because it's unorthodox, most can't figure out how to block it. It reminds me of a movement of Geikisai kata where it looks like you're going to do a lateral movement on one side of their head, and it comes out as shuto on the other side - along with a foot sweep. Fakes a newbie every bloody time... :P

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:23 pm 
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I got a late start on my "Honey Do" list and couldn't make class. But this week I've been practicing what Rich gave me earlier in the thread.
Quote:
For practice, pick your knee up as high as you can. I can actually get it to arm pit level. Then as you drop the knee the foot goes straight out. Do it slowly as if you were pushing someone away from you with your foot in their abdomen, solar plexus ...

I got to playing with this and doing some thinkin. Light bulb went off and got me to thinking about something Bill said.

Quote:
1) First and foremost, the force vector is tangential to the trajectory of the kick. And you get 100% energy transfer if you get that contact force vector orthogonal (perpendicular in all directions) to the surface you want to damage or move. This principle of physics explains why pointing the knee, leaving it still, and extending leg with quadriceps results in an "incorrect" kick. The force trajectory will be straight up, and actually parallel to the contact surface. So not only will you throw a perfectly useless kick (which may still have a nifty snap with your gi), but you will also put too much stress on your knee joint vs. all the other joints that can be involved with the kicking motion.

Bill, you are right about that but what you are describing is an incorrect front snap or a "polite" one. Things that cause this is the range being too far out and aiming for the surface of the body. I've been told that the front kicks direction is 45 degree up and in penetrating into the SP. I double checked this against some footage I have of Isshin-ryu sensei Angi Uezu demonstrating a proper front kick to the solar plexus, the thing that I found interesting is just past the point of contact his knee is still higher than his foot. Trying Rich's practice method with Uezu's kick I found once the kick hits the snap is used up, but the thrust is still there. Digging through my video collection I reviewed some of Bong Soo Han's students doing a pad drill. One guy's front kick knocked the pad holder right out of the camera view, another just backed him up a bit. The difference was the first guy was closer in and had the thrust part to his kick. There was the dropping knee and the rest of the Uechi-ryu front kick! The other guy was kicking just like Bills quote above. Finally I think I know why some guys kicks are fast and technically good but lack power and others just blast you into the next room. Thanks all for helping answer a question that has been bothering me for years! :D

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:46 pm 
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Mike,

I suggest you watch the clip of Mr. Tomoyose talking about the front kick on this site. He describes the Uechi front kick as penetrating in and down.

A concept that seems out of reach for kicks above the waist - but not for lower kicks.

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/masters.html

His 25 minutes interview is 1/2 way down the page.

Dana

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:48 pm 
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Understand, Mike, that there is no one perfect kick which excludes all other ways of doing kicks.

What Rich was describing was an EXERCISE we do in class which makes the person feel the involvement of the hip joint (gluteus muscle, dropping the knee, etc.). But one generally doesn't do a front kick like that in "action" any more than one chambers and pauses before throwing a straight hand thrust technique. The goal of the exercise is to make you feel lines of force. This particular exercise maxes the involvement of the glutes (dropping the knee).

Yes, there IS a time to do a thrust this way. Bobby Campbell was watching us spar in our Charlottesville dojo circa 1988, and noted how often folks got tied up grabbing each other. He had someone grab him like that. Bobby picked his knee up to his chest, and slammed the person with a straight-out front thrust motion. Had he done it any harder, we would have been wiping up gastric juices off the floor.

The method you described with the foot coming from floor to target at a 45 degree angle was previously described in this thread as the "Rabesa method." GEM also teaches this way. You maximize speed doing kicks this way.

But...

You also cleverly brought up another point. I often tell people that striking and thrusting motions are two-phase events. The first phase is getting hand or foot to target as quickly as possible. The second is penetrating the target. This is why you want TOT (time on target) with many techniques. That second phase often is the caffeine in the coffee, or in your own words, turns a "polite" kick into a destructive one. And certainly the path of your foot could change at that point once you get really good with your kicking mechanics. A little easier said than done though.

Nevertheless...

When you hear Tomoyose sensei talking about kicking DOWN into a target, then you start to think not just of how you hit, but WHAT you are hitting. For a lower kick going down, you can trigger what Bruce Miller calls the gastric reflex. This can have the effect of making you schit your pants and/or causing a knockout with a 2 to 5 second delay (a vasovagal response). Very, very strange technique, but in many kata as hand thrust. It's hidden in sanchin as well, BTW, if you manage to finish it the way I do (taught to me as well by Bobby C). ;)

- Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:58 am 
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Oh I understood that it was an excercise Bill, but it doing it brought to light an element that I hadn't noticed before. I'd watch Master Thinh do these powerful front kicks when sparring but I never noticed the knee drop. I'm looking at pictures of my friends sensei, Oshima, doing a front kick and there's the knee drop again. This small but important detail is something that I've missed but now I see it. For that alone the practice was well worth doing. This is little part of kicking is something that I only would have really gotten by doing with a partner or agaisnt a bag. :) Bill, I appreciate yours and Rich's critiques and corrections, keep them coming.

Now who was Rabesa?

Thanks for the advice and link Dana. I've heard about displacing the fluids and other things in and upward with a front kick but never down. Finding the nastiness in karate always amazes me. I'll have to watch that interview tonight. Yeah for cable modem!

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