Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:02 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
I'm busy at home tonight so couldn't make class or I'd ask Bill. But is the Uechi front kick almost but not quite a front thrusting kick? In other words the knee comes up sharply but drops as foot goes out. This is instead of the knee coming up and holding it's position and the leg straightening with the foot coming up.

I hope this makes sense. :oops: :oops:

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
That is about right. By raising th knee high and then dropping it as the foot comes forward you involve the glutes - the biggest muscle in the body. That is why I start my workout by stretching the glutes... so I can easily get my knee high. The resulting motion of the foot is straight toward your opponent more or less.

The kick could be a thrust kick if you followed through and held the contact. Our kick is quick in and quickly retracted, off the front leg.

One thing to remember, the Uechi snap kick uses a pointed toe - sokusen - one of the Uechi pointy things Bill likes to refer to.

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
Thanks Rich. I was trying to get some bag work in and I remembered your correction of my sokuto geri. I figured maybe it was the same for the front kick. I'm afraid using the toes will have to come later. So much to learn. :D

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 2714
My two cents...

Try to think more of hip movement. The knee can snap open with the power from the glutes - but I find that if I think too much about pushing the knee down I involve too much of my quads and actually slow down my own kick. If I can keep the quads relaxed then the kick whips nicely.

Dana

_________________
Did you show compassion today?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 23, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1509
Location: on the path.
I agree, but MikeK has defined the technique precisely as I understand it, and I have seen many, many who don't.
If I had a nickel for every student I saw raise their thigh then hinge-snap their lower leg out, using only their quads, I could train for free.

And I also find that not only the hip but a rippling snap is involved here as well. It starts in the belly and rolls out through the leg. Hard to explain but easy to demonstrate.
A lot of students extend/open the hip as a substitute for this snap.
It's a lot harder to do keeping the hips square to the opponent.

NM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:16 am
Posts: 2758
Location: Boston
It's really important to tailor the kick to the situation. A lot of times, if you wind up for a full on thrust front kick, the opponent can or should be able to escape it or catch it (but it might be great as a finisher after landing something else first or as a sneak attack). Something faster might not be lethal, but set up the kill. Depends on the window of opportunity. Plus, sometimes the foe can do most of the work. Basebally players couldn't hit homers off of stationary balls... the pitcher does work. If someone charges into your foot that's great for you usually.

There's a "technically wrong" kick in Rabesa's "Kumite," that involves a foot that moves out as soon as it lifts off. At impact the energy is transfered in a traditional way but the path taken isn't "kata" in form. I for one wouldn't want to be in the way of it.

_________________
--Ian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
I agree IJ about fitting the kick to the situation, the uechi kick is another tool in my box. Now I just have to figure out how to use them. When practicing it last night I was thinking of the foot going straight to the target, the knee dropping to the same plane as the foot is just a side effect of that.
BTW Thanks for the responses all, this is like having a sensei in the house . :D

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Mike: Dana and Ian are both outstanding in the snap kick department. Ian is long, lean and quick. Dana truly snaps the whip, almost like a wave action as it builds. Both are good models to emulate.

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
Dana do you have a video clip of your kick? What do you mean by "The knee can snap open with the power from the glutes"? :? Are you talking about behind the knee snapping open after the has been chambered?

Rich, Am I wrong about this?
"I was thinking of the foot going straight to the target, the knee dropping to the same plane as the foot is just a side effect of that."

Once again thanks everybody. Tonight I'm going to play with this some more.

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
"Rich, Am I wrong about this?
"I was thinking of the foot going straight to the target, the knee dropping to the same plane as the foot is just a side effect of that.""

That is correct. Not everyone does it quite this way though.

For practice, pick your knee up as high as you can. I can actually get it to arm pit level. Then as you drop the knee the foot goes straight out. Do it slowly as if you were pushing someone away from you with your foot in their abdomen, solar plexus ...

The Marine Corps has this technique in the MCMAP system as a slow 'get off me' or 'stay away' technique called a push kick. They do not snap it and use it as a low level force continuum tool to create or maintain distance. Also, they do not lead with the toe, but the flat of the boot. If they snapped it and led with the toe of the very stiff and hard combat boot it could cause serious damage. That would raise the technique to a higher level in the continuum.

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
I'll be doing that practice method againt my bag tonight Rich.

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17139
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
There are many, many things to consider with front kicks. They actually come in many flavors.

The most imporant things to consider are:

1) First and foremost, the force vector is tangential to the trajectory of the kick. And you get 100% energy transfer if you get that contact force vector orthogonal (perpendicular in all directions) to the surface you want to damage or move. This principle of physics explains why pointing the knee, leaving it still, and extending leg with quadriceps results in an "incorrect" kick. The force trajectory will be straight up, and actually parallel to the contact surface. So not only will you throw a perfectly useless kick (which may still have a nifty snap with your gi), but you will also put too much stress on your knee joint vs. all the other joints that can be involved with the kicking motion.

2) Do you want to thrust or snap? Thrusting involves "time on target." These are "stopping" and "crushing" techniques. Snapping involves more soft tissue damage. The biggest visual difference is how long the foot stays extended. A thrust kick is more like a (correct) Uechi sanchin thrust. (I've seen some folks try to snap that. Not correct in my book.) A snap kick is more like a Uechi back fist.

3) What surface of the foot do you want to kick with? The toe (sokusen), ball of foot, foot blade (sokuto), and heel are all perfectly correct versions of the same front kick (shomen geri). And a "Uechi side kick" is not a side kick. That's a misnomer. It's a front kick hitting with the foot blade (Soku*to means foot blade. Shu*to means hand blade. Soku*sen means foot somethingorother...probably related to the toe.)

4) Do you want to emphasize speed or power?

The "Rabesa style kick" mentioned above is what Art taught for years to folks who were in his sparring classes. It is optimized for speed. The foot follows a straight line from floor to target. There is a sufficient horizontal component of the force vector on contact to get the job done, and you get it done FAST. The knee still raises and lowers, but not much.

A kick optimized for power and "stopping" will involve more knee lift before extension. That will recruit the gluteal muscles more than the speed kick, and 100% of the force vector is horizontal - straight into the target.

5) "Primitive" kicks involve fewer joints, muscles, and degrees of freedom of motion. The best and most powerful kicks recruit most of the body, and the movements are quite complex. A perfect Uechi front snap kick uses:

* Extension of the ankle as kick goes foreward so that the kicking surface always faces the target - just like a cobra.

* Extension at the knee using the quadriceps.

* Movement of the knee using the glutes (hip extension).

* Rotation of the femurs (BOTH of them ) in the hip sockets. This prevents the "dipping" of the head and/or lifting of the heel of the support leg. It also can add energy to the motion. Ideally you can "cock the trigger" by overemphasizing the sanchin toe-turn-in. This IMO is why Uechika CAN BE masters of the kick off the front leg. It's the stored energy built in the sanchin stance!!

* Snapping of the pelvis (using lower abdominal muscles). Ideally you can "cock the trigger" a bit by letting the ass stick out just before the kick (allowing for some lumbar lordosis before firing the kick).

6) Remember that there is a valid "football kick". What is "wrong" according to rule number 1 above (for hitting a vertical surface of the body) is perfectly correct if you're trying to drive a guy's balls up into his ears. There the target is horizontal, so the trajectory at point of contact should involve a force vector that is perfectly vertical (orthogonal to the contact surface). This is a great self defense technique that we must never forget. Contact point is generally top of foot. Actually to me, I consider this a lot more like a roundhouse rather than a front kick. You just change the orientation 90 degrees.

Hope that helps.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 2714
Thanks Rich - I don't think myself much in the kicking department - I've got so little mass to shove around that I focus on the quick/snap part and getting my foot back down to mother earth. I'm very envious of the power kicks folks have...

Mike - I'm going to send Rick Wilson a kata (probably seichin) over the holidays. I'll burn an extra CD for you if you PM me your snail mail address.

Dana

_________________
Did you show compassion today?


Last edited by Dana Sheets on Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17139
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dama

The way I see it, the "perfect Uechi snap kick" I described above is a lot like the Nakamatsu style sanchin thrust that you are so good at. I'm just farther along with my legs than you, and vice versa you with your arm thrust. Makes sense... I was born and raised in track. 8)

Same principles. If you don't have it down by now, happy to work with you. You understand the principles better than you know.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
Thanks Dana, but if Rick intends to post it on the web I can just wait.

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group