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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 1998 3:05 pm 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Lori San,

To get back to the original intent of the post, I believe that a Shoken into the Carotid Sinus with good intent should be Practiced incessantly by all, But especially by Women. This is an accessable point even during severe grappling and will drop the assailants Blood Pressure so rapidly as top cause unconsciousness. If nails aren't long then you can even grab the collar bone ate the St-11, just beside the sternal notch and roll your hand into a fist (Sanchin Kata) and hit the Herrings Nerve which ties into the Vegas Nerve, also a branch of the Seventh Cranial Nerve, bunch of good stuff. Kyoshi Canna witnessed me perform this KO on a very Large man with an instant KO. This dosn't work as well on a short thick neck, but a Skoken to the Carotid will still cause a major affect, so follow up will be easier.

Once I find out how to make an MPEG out of personal videos I will post this on my forum.

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 1998 1:28 am 
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Evan-san,

Thank you for your post! It is always interesting to learn about the vital areas, especially those that can be found easily under stress! I teach the strike to the carotid in my women's self-defense classes; believing, as you say, that the point may be found somewhat easily in a grappling situation. Given, of course, the appropriate mindsetting prior to it's occasion for use!

As for the sokusen - that technique I don't bother to expound on it's practicality with beginning students - as it takes so long to develop! However, target areas, like that of the inner thigh, can be easily hit with the pointed toes of some dress shoes - which I do stress.

Interesting point about the conditioning of the inner thigh not being enough to avoid feeling that strike. It is that particular spot we go for during the dan kumite takedown. Nice point about the vulnerabilty of that point for opponents not in a san chin stance.

Thanks for your informative post!

Peace,
Lori


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:13 am 
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bump
--------------------------------

I was going to start a new thread but though this one was a good starter.

I'm curious as to how many people tuck the toes back for a classical sokusen and how many keep the toes flat to kick?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:00 pm 
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Location: Tishomingo, Oklahoma
Hi Dana Sensei.

I like this thread too. Is the "sokusen" the same kick that
we in ShotoKan call "mae-geri"? or front kick?

If it is, it depends on the target that presents itself.
For soft targets I keep my toes pointy, although my Sensei
hates that :) . For hard bony targets I pull my toes back and strike with the ball of the foot.
With shoes on anything is fair game :twisted: .
I do spend a lot of time in flip flops or moccasins though.
The mocs offer some protection but little support to the kicking foot adn as far as flip flops go, I have practiced getting out of them and can jump or slip out of them in a heart beat.

Tomahawk.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:47 pm 
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Danny Smith wrote:
Hi Dana Sensei.

I like this thread too. Is the "sokusen" the same kick that
we in ShotoKan call "mae-geri"? or front kick?

If it is, it depends on the target that presents itself.
For soft targets I keep my toes pointy, although my Sensei
hates that :) . For hard bony targets I pull my toes back and strike with the ball of the foot.
With shoes on anything is fair game :twisted: .
I do spend a lot of time in flip flops or moccasins though.
The mocs offer some protection but little support to the kicking foot adn as far as flip flops go, I have practiced getting out of them and can jump or slip out of them in a heart beat.

Tomahawk.


Danny,

"sokusen" literally means "tip(s) of toe(s)" (usually the big toe). What people are describing here is indeed "mae gerri" or "shomen gerri" (front kick). Many other styles actually do a "mae sokutei gerri" or "front kick with ball of foot". Dana et. al. are talking about "mae sokusen gerri" or "front kick with tips of toes".

cheers,

chewy


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:02 am 
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Image

Many styles kick with straight toes. Uechi (as far as I know) is unique in that we pull the toes back to kick. Takes a long long time to be able to kick this way effectively especially under stress. However many stories are told that when folks would come to the Uechi dojo to challenge and permission was given to use sokusen the challengers often ended up at the hospital with split muslces and deep soft tissue damage.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:48 am 
Quote:
Takes a long long time to be able to kick this way effectively especially under stress.


Which is why I completely quit trying to develop the technique. Truth be told, the effort of getting this kick to work properly along with the "shyness" factor of actually putting power in my front kick (fear of breaking the "tootsies") made this technique worth abandoning. Consider this: Aside from walking around the house in your underwear or going to the beach, how often are you actually barefoot? About .5% of the time. Best to learn to kick as hard as you can without the concern of breaking your toes! Kick with the ball of your foot! Since I quit trying to kick with my toes, my front kick has doubled in power and I am confident that I can knock the wind out of someone with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:58 am 
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Tis true that you don't have to train the ball of your foot because you train it every day by walking. However, to me, both the sokusen and the shoken are appealing because I'm never going to have the muscle power in my kicks/strikes that some do. So if I can find a way to make my strikes more penetrating (by having more PSI by limiting the striking surface) then I can hit harder without actually using more muscle.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:04 pm 
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Hopefully Glasheen Sensei will chime in on some of his methods on developing the toe kick. All very good.. some a bit beyond my current abilities.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:11 pm 
Dana Sheets wrote:
because I'm never going to have the muscle power in my kicks/strikes that some do.


I remember you having strong kicks Dana. You've got good legs for kicking the crap out of someone. That toe thing is a waste of time and it's also gay.

:wink:

Get a kicking shield and a partner and try to knock them over.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:44 pm 
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By means of comparison - you are learning how to box. So I could ask you when, while on the street, do you expect to wear gigantic padded mittens during a street fight? Perhaps .5% of the time? I'm saying this totally tongue in cheek and knowing that I'm pulling your chain a little because I know that very, very little of boxing training involves actually wearing those gloves because it is kind of like putting shoes on your hands.

This is kind of a different line of thinking but I once read an article that quoted Mr. Tomoyose as saying that if you wanted to learn how to kill someone quickly - you should go buy a gun. But if you want to learn about yourself, train karate.

So I understand that there's a low percentage payoff to high labor ratio for the toe kick and the shoken and the hiraken...and by training them I also learn more about myself.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:09 pm 
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The Bronze Dago wrote:
Which is why I completely quit trying to develop the technique. Truth be told, the effort of getting this kick to work properly along with the "shyness" factor of actually putting power in my front kick (fear of breaking the "tootsies") made this technique worth abandoning. Consider this: Aside from walking around the house in your underwear or going to the beach, how often are you actually barefoot? About .5% of the time. Best to learn to kick as hard as you can without the concern of breaking your toes! Kick with the ball of your foot! Since I quit trying to kick with my toes, my front kick has doubled in power and I am confident that I can knock the wind out of someone with it.


No question but this is right on the money. For smaller folks especially the best options are the ball of the foot or the heel of the foot smashing into the opponent with full power. Just because Master X can do Y with his/her toe isn't going to make it work on the enraged EBG.

Want a pointy thing? Then try a smashing heel kick while wearing pumps.. :roll:


Evan Pantazi wrote:
Targeting, is essential, but also the hard part under the stress of conflict.


Understatement of the year IMO.

Start trying to target little vital points in the heat of combat and prepare for defeat. Target his center and learn to work off of the clash and his resistance to target his center based on natural movements and where your hands or other weapons are at the moment. Spend more time studying how to gain control and take control of the line and the opponent and less time 'developing' pointy things that will never land without an imitate understanding of how to gain control of the stronger opponent.

david wrote:
Rather than thinking about (and perhaps being overly reliant) on any one specific technique, people should practice techniques as part of a continuous attack in which the distance between the defender and the attacker closes and the techniques employed changes accordingly, e.g. you go from a low kick(s) to punches, to knees and elbows and, maybe, even to grappling.


This is key.

One or even two good shoken by the average woman is not going to stop anyone with intent to harm you in all but the most unusual circumstances. Folks need to start chaining these moves together into a continuous attack that closes, follows and faces the opponent until the opponent is hurt or sufficiently dazed so escape is possible.

Dana Sheets wrote:
appealing because I'm never going to have the muscle power in my kicks/strikes that some do. So if I can find a way to make my strikes more penetrating (by having more PSI by limiting the striking surface) then I can hit harder without actually using more muscle.


The vertical fist is a pointy thing that offers more strength and ability to take more of an impact over the typical practitioner’s shoken… Moreover the wrist is locked up for stability, bridging and energy transfer.

The best power multiplier in the end will be a combination of a stronger semi pointy thingy with a continuous chaining attack – learn how to chain your strikes together so that you never stop striking, to the tune of four or more strikes per second. Remember force = work per unit of time, so doing more in less time must be the goal of those 'power challenged folks' and can give you the multiplier you need while also keeping the opponent off balance… Try it in sparring… These chained strikes are simple, doable and direct, think in terms of a high pressure stream of water that will have a much better chance at blowing a hole in your opponent than any single pointy thingy ever could IMO.

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 Post subject: Touche!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:19 pm 
HA! Dana, yer a trip!

I'm learning to box because I want to study body mechanics more in depth, and also, after a 2 year hiatus from training, I am way out of shape and need someone to help get me motivated.

You might not believe this but I have actually punched people out before, and no, I wasn't wearing gloves (I was wearing shoes though). I know how good it feels to make a nice connection on someones eye and that beautiful cracking sound. I knew all this before I even got heavy into karate. So I am not taking boxing to learn how to punch people out, I just want to be more effective at it.

That said, from my experience from actually kicking peoples asses, this karate thing where people fall over dead after 1 kick or punch is crapola. People are naturally tough and can take alot of abuse, especially if you don't tear them down mentally before going in to do your dirty work. Rather then waste time with techniques like pointy toes and thumbs, the techiques that you really want to work on are FOLLOW-UP techniques, something I NEVER got in karate.

So that is what I'm getting out of boxing, the concept of FOLLOW-UP techniques, because I know for a fact, no one goes down on the first kick or punch.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:21 pm 
Incidentally, I have sparred with the originator of this thread.


Last edited by Guest on Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:31 pm 
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After wearing corrective shoes for most of my childhood pointy toe things just aren't going to happen for me. Wish I could but such is life.

Now I've been finding that shoken, hiraken and nukite have been showing up in my Sunday sessions more and more frequently. I notice that I mostly use them when in grappling range or when my opponent is more stationary. When closing fighting at distance I'm still using more of the big movements.

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