Are we ever going to learn something from Kata?

Are we ever going to learn something from Kata?

Postby Rick Wilson » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:54 am

Are we ever going to learn something from Kata?

Let me first say that my major learning ground is our Uechi Kata, so I am asking this question to hopefully generate thought and discussion.

So let us take Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseirui the big three original Uechi Kata.

Look at the movements.

Which direction are we going the big majority of the time – forward. 8O

Angular movement and absorption are up next and there is a good amount of it in Uechi Kata particularly if you open your mind to different origins of attack. 8O

And YES, there is a rare occasion where there is a draw back or even a jump/step back to show that it CAN be an option. But it is very rare. :wink:

AND what is the move that immediately follows any draw or step back??

An aggressive drive forward. 8O

Which matches George’s approach to flinch back and then engage. Definitely something to be part of our skill set according to Uechi Kata but perhaps not what should be the major focus of our training based on the movements of Uechi Kata.

So in most cases IF IF IF IF you look at the Uechi kata we are engaging immediately and aggressively.

Seems to me that if Uechi is a Kata drive martial art (which I believe), then we should be training to engage and rarely step back.

I think that the key to everything you ever wanted to know about Uechi Ryu is in the Kata.

Study the kata deeply and you will find Uechi Ryu.

Uechi Ryu kata do not go back except in rare occasions (perhaps that totally unexpected true ambush George prepares for in the drill he posted 8) ).

Now is the time to focus on the more major movements given to us in our Kata.

By the way I also believe it is totally acceptable to play with any drill, teaching any skill set, that you want.

It is totally acceptable to play with any drill that explores any avenue or technique or principle you want.

I am all for exploring any and all aspects. 8)

But as for the core foundations of Uechi Ryu the drills should be derived directly from our Kata and our Kata do not go back the majority of the time so the drills should not go back the majority of the time. :idea:

I guess I am really not so much a heretic as I would love to believe, instead I am a die hard true Uechika truly believing in the effectiveness of our Kata. 8O

(Sometimes I think that the reason many Karateka and others are no longer see the value of Kata practice is because the Kata are not taken into their drills and applications.)

I truly feel the questions asked need to be pondered by Uechika.

As always please come to your own conclusions (of course) and I do wish you would share them here along with how you derived them.

In the end I guess you will just have to call me a Uechi Traditionalist or maybe a manly man. :lol:

But I guess I am not a true manly man because I said it was okay to go backwards sometimes as long as you remember to switch up and win the fight. :wink:
Rick Wilson

Postby Stryke » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:03 am

Hey Rick , simple question , big answer ....

this thread is going to be huge ... thats if i only post what Ive found in the kata

and your right most find kata useless because , well how it`s taught it is mostly useless .

I was going to strat with Sanchin ... but I wont ...

I`ll start with Seisan because it`s more obvious ;)

Postby Stryke » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:09 am

Ok step one and the opening ....

I see it as a shoot and/or a sprawl , Uechi is a grappling style , grappling and striking if youd prefer .

If someone goes for a double or single leg you can sprawl and use the double thrusts to drive em down . If your inside you can raise the arms and go for double underhooks .

with double underhooks you control the sprawl , it`s very difficult for them to take you down from here .

I leave the Sanchin thrusts and skip ahead , but I have a lot of out there applcations from there .

the double press down , well i see it as he has you in a body lock/clinch , you put weight back and down onto his arms to prevent him lifting and throwing you , you then double strike to the ears or temples or neck ... in the only way you can , around his arms and to the only target you have from this linch , the head ....

you then bushiken the neck , the circular movement being a grab and push up and away , feeding grabs and strikes , making some distance ....

more to come ....

Postby Stryke » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:16 am

Ok you then have the break of hands and the crane posture ....

simple shoulder grab and knee once youve created space

you hook the neck and you come down and thrust and grab the jewels ..

surprise surprise he grabs your hand , you turn into the next set , seizing the wrist hes grabbed , and the neck you throw him over your hip with the turn .... bam !!!

more circle thingys .... can be block arm drag and groin grab and a simple throw , pul the arm and lift the leg/groin bye bye bad guy .... or my favourite is going under the arm dragging his arm behind his back , then hooking the arm up locking the shoulder lock in place ... lots of variations here .....

more to come ...
Last edited by Stryke on Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Postby Stryke » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:22 am

More double thrusts .....

could be a shoot but I pefer seeing it as a clinch ...

hes to close your getting pounded , go for a hug ... underhooks under both arms , smother him , stick your forehead in his Jaw , grind him up ...

hey lets cause some pain lets take our wrestling position and add some shokens ... grab some flesh and jam him in the armpits , spin him around however you like .....

lets wauke underneath his arm turn him and drive some space with the elbow ... weve taken control ...

lets wauke the arm , hit him with a bushiken , spin him with another seize the groin , endless possibiltys , it`s all grab and strike , manipulate and strike . No jumping out of the way anywhere here folks .....

more to come ....

Postby Stryke » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:31 am

You turn into the attack , you cover , you seize , you transfer .... (NOTICE NO BLOCKS IN THE KATA YET :lol: )

you do a short kick to the shins or ghoulies , hes bent a bit you drive a knee in to knock the stuffing out , your getting over him , he will grab on .. you shoken the shite out of him , back of neck / throat/ spine , its all gravy ....

you finish him by Wauke/twisting whatever you can , you can always nukite or you can even see it as a arm wrench or break ... lets get creative ....

No jumping back involved ....

lets turn into the attack , lets cover grab transfer and attack , bread and butter uechi , control and attack , no distancing , no jumping , jsut gurad cover and attack , the next turn , lets call it a throw , we have struck and seized so we might as well ....

self explanatory the next yes ?

three or so , grab manipulate and strike .... always grabbing this uechi huh , Ive looked thorugh the big three and am yet to find a strike without a preceding grab ....

no jumping back involved in grabbing huh ?

more to come .......

Postby Stryke » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:34 am

Ahh heck i`ll leave the next bit because it`s to heretical ....

the jumping back bit .... well I dont do it , ive already grabbed and seized and am simply drawing back to drag em down .....

but it`s not Uechi because in practical terms I`d be jumping a sword ....

being in the moment

Postby CANDANeh » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:50 am

Good stuff Stryke and I admire your ability to put down what your thinking and I`m able to visualize what your doing 8)
I`m thinking of a short answer before I head to work and what keeps coming to mind is ...
Kata is teaching me to make the best of the space I occupy or wish to occupy in a confrintation. This of course is dependant on my ability to make what the "kata teaches" fit into who I am.
Confussed, hey so am I :lol: but I think I`m starting to get it
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Postby Stryke » Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:57 am

Hey Thanks Leo

I wrote that quick and it was basic and I do a lot more interesting things ... but

I have several basic postures and Habitual acts of violence addressed

theres three basic clinches

over both arms , under both arms , and over one under the other ...

heck and seisan adresses all of them giving and receiving ....

you have the knees .

you have the body lock .

you have thedouble strike and three circling up bushikens to drive him out of the bodylock ....

you have the draggin of the free hand and lifting with the single underhooked hand ....

we have counters to wrist grabs via the extend and attack the groin ....

were countering HAPV and practicing HAPV , we should take it two the next step and drill these backwards and forwards ...

before you know it we have skills that dont involve jumping out of the way .

Postby maxwell ainley » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:24 am

Hi Rick and friends

To study the three is time consuming to say the least ,but its very economical ,I could speed up the teaching ,or introduction of the three ,but allowing a digestion time scale in each area ,again allows a principle of learning ; to economically digest .
Three distinct areas of economical study ,which will slowly be digested into a mindset that is a triad .

max ainley
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Postby MikeK » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:07 pm

Are we ever going to learn something from Kata?
If you are training to learn kata, then it will take a very looooong time. If you are using kata as a tool then you can learn things pretty quickly withit.

Marcus, I think you are correct, but to see those things in a kata you have to understand something about grappling. I don't think kata techniques were ever meant to be discovered but were the notes on fighting that were given to the student along with instruction or at least demonstration on their use. In Shotokan I don't think anybody would ever guess what the yamagamae in Jutte is used for unless they have seen it in application at least once.

Education of the the student is key to seeing the obvious techniques in kata. The more I'm taught about the body, striking, throwing and targeting the more I see in the kata. And what I see isn't hidden or mystical. :D
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:11 pm

I used to hate kata before. Not anymore though.
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Postby Stryke » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:37 am

Education of the the student is key to seeing the obvious techniques in kata. The more I'm taught about the body, striking, throwing and targeting the more I see in the kata. And what I see isn't hidden or mystical.

Absolutely Mike , Once you study applications and violence , you find you can find endless possibilitys in kata .

Postby 2Green » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:40 am

Kata is about definitions, bunkai is about language application, training is about street talk.
That's the way I treat it.

The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.
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Postby Rick Wilson » Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:37 am

The Kata are the heart and sole of Uechi Ryu. We really have nothing else to go on to learn what Uechi Ryu is.

Kata should never be done simply to get them done and they should never be done in a superficial manner.

Kata are indeed a tool but they are more than that because they are the map, the guidance, the navigational system to our style.

Indeed we may need to study before we can read the map. We may need help interpreting it.

But Uechi Ryu Kata are Uechi Ryu.

So to learn Uechi Ryu we must base that learning in our Kata.

Engage and engage with total intent!!!
Rick Wilson


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